[Feedback] Policy Contradictions And General Concerns

[CosmicWhaleShark 2488]

Hello everyone,

 

This thread is meant to provide feedback and address what are, in my opinion, concerns when regarding contradictions in policy, essentially.

 

Firstly I would like to bring to your attention, the 'Your View' subforum.

 

 

This is a current screenshot of the 'Your View' forum, notice that many of the recent changes are not mentioned at all. Now I am by no means asking the staff to update us on every decision to be made, it would be nice, but I do realize how tedious such a thing would be.

 

However there are subjects at hand, raiding rules for example, that were changed without any feedback from the player-base. The significance of this? Raiding rules were initially changed due to the outcries of players on the receiving end of a 'no raid limit'. 

 

 

The players voiced their concerns to the staff and changes were made, however for some reason changes were reverted back to their original state.

 

 

It is worth noting that additional changes were made to this rule, however it still raises the question of why it was altered at all, in that case.

 

 

There was a compromise to this, of course, in the form of PvP flag zones. However this compromise carries me over to general contradictions in policy across the board.

 

We are allowing essentially free lore, free magic, free villainy. Role-play at this point is essentially up to the player's discretion, which could be considered fantastic. There is no regulation beyond simple observations of blatant power-gaming. However you can really only 'safely' RP within the designated areas, without worrying about absolute PvP default, according to staff theories.

 

You can RP however you like, but you're only safe in a handful of places. You can choose to be whatever you like, but you cannot truly be wherever you wish.

 

 

Now, what I'm going to say next is simply for the sake pointing out apparent contradictions. With the establishment of absolute PvP default, you are in fact punishing those who power-game, or meta-game for whatever reason they do so, typically innocent ones. You are punishing those who are new and misunderstand rules, or those who are simply ignorant.

 

You are also endorsing malicious behavior and assholes in the community.

 

This is a sweeping statement, and by no means do I believe it applies to everything and everyone. Cases can be made to contradict this statement on both ends, but this accurately reflects the majority.

 

Note "we completely ignore intentional malicious behavior and assholes in the community" within the provided screenshot.

 

An example of why this statement contradicts with policy?

 

 

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/110269-an-amendment-to-the-policy-on-pugsying/

 

This in itself should be self-explanatory. Intentional mass slaughter could be considered an '*******' thing to do, exceptions have been made however.

 

Additionally with removing majority ruling, you can literally have a single person be the "*******" that makes everyone else PvP.

 

The next point is far more subjective, however it is my personal stance on general PvP default. This is based on what I've seen, both in Aegis, and now. PvP is competitive, and fun, I consider myself to be above average in terms of PvP and I do enjoy it.

 

However I do not think it should be endorsed on LotC.

 

One prevalent argument I saw during the PvP/RP debate was that RP took too much time. People just wanted to get on with the killing, it seemed. This is fine, and perfectly legitimate, however I would make the argument that if you do not have the 'time' to make someone's death enjoyable through role-play, you simply should not be killing people. No one is forcing you to be a warrior, and no one is saying you need to kill people.

 

This is a role-play server, 'light' or 'hardcore', it is still a role-play server. People should not be given 'RP nature reserves' due to the excess of PvP danger throughout the world. This is backwards, extremely backwards. People come here to role-play and some people, myself included, enjoy the opportunities and surprises within a role-play combat session.

 

As a compromise I would suggest something along the lines of 'badlands' like we had before, where players could go to PvP if they wished to instead. I don't believe we should be nurturing PvP any further than we already have, once again, this is an RP server.

 

 

TL:DR - In summary, you are probably asking why I'm making this thread. These are my observations based on my years in LotC. I've seen the theories behind what direction certain reforms would take the server, what utterly failed, what surprisingly succeeded. The theories I see behind the recent reforms are not heading in a positive direction, for a role-play server, and I would ask that you consider what I've said and take this into account in the next reforms you have in mind. I feel this server is improving, steadily, and such drastic changes could potentially alter its course later on, alter its identity, so on and so forth.

 

Thank you for reading.

 

-wardog4445

[Hiebe 2493]

I approve and agree with this

[comanderbly^ 499]

Don't fix what isn't broken.

 

Honestly, most stuff was fine, most changes were not needed.

[Hanrahan 2983]

"Give it all a chance"

 

"But it's **** and won't work!"

 

-Three four months later-

 

"But it's **** and doesn't work!"

 

"Well it's worked for so long why change back"

 

-GM staff

 

They'll never ever revert a change they've made back to the original system, I've never seen such a thing happen. Give it a chance means "Forget about it in 5 months because it's here to stay."

[CosmicWhaleShark 2488]

In the past, I personally along with others provided proof that having zero limitations on raid rules was hampering other aspects of LotC's general role-play experience. Things can change, I would simply like to provide alternatives for future changes, while everything is still fresh and subject to change based on feedback.

 

 

This is evidence enough that the staff is open to change, so while there are many examples to provide for your argument, Radahan, I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

My solution to an alternative is quite simply to make closed off areas for PvP, rather than closed off areas for RP. Switch them around, people can PvP in the badlands to their heart's content while new players and RP oriented players are free to explore the rest of the map and generally enjoy themselves without the fear of being clicked to death because someone either 'doesn't have enough time', or does not like their style of role-play.

 

Overall I feel it could provide for a more positive experience to LotCers of all levels, be they noob or veteran.

 

Also, a request, please do not categorize this into 'noted feedback'. I would prefer for this to stay open.

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

Regarding no. 2: A nation persistant enough can still destroy a playerbase by raiding it daily.

Regarding no. 3: Though "PVP safe zone" nations cannot attack other nations this does not mean they cannot provoke them to get a reaction, then say "piss off boyo our nation is a no PVP zone" OOCly when the other nation responds.

 

Everything else is still fully relevant.

[CosmicWhaleShark 2488]

Could you clarify as to what exactly you're addressing, Leo?

 

Edit in response: Relevant in what way? Within the thread I believe I made points that there was little reason to change the rules to begin with, and the way the current changes in policy were going caused for massive contradictions with the goals the staff had set out to accomplish.

 

With the current rules in mind, I offered a potential compromise that would possibly provide more widespread accommodation.

 

If I missed a point you were trying to address, please further clarify.

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

Backing up your point regarding the divide between "PVP defaulters" and "RP defaulters". I'm saying these "PVP safe zones" and new raid rules are the worst thing the staff could possibly do to fix the relationship between these two groups.

 

One raid per two days and majority rule on combat type was the best way to go, now any thug with iron armour can call PVP on 5 people who want to RP. That's not to say I don't prefer PVP combat in general over RP, but if you're gonna be 'that guy' and force the majority of other people to have your way, and can do so legally, the system is flawed.

 

Mark my words, resentment between PVP and RP defaulters will spread and only get worse unless you change it back to what it was.

[CosmicWhaleShark 2488]

Backing up your point regarding the divide between "PVP defaulters" and "RP defaulters". I'm saying these "PVP safe zones" and new raid rules are the worst thing the staff could possibly do to fix the relationship between these two groups.

 

One raid per two days and majority rule on combat type was the best way to go, now any thug with iron armour can call PVP on 5 people who want to RP. That's not to say I don't prefer PVP combat in general over RP, but if you're gonna be 'that guy' and force the majority of other people to have your way, and can do so legally, the system is flawed.

 

Mark my words, resentment between PVP and RP defaulters will spread and only get worse unless you change it back to what it was.

 

 

 

I am in full agreement, yes, this might have been the most worrying topic of change within the reform.

 

I think it may be important to reiterate too that this is a role-play server. It is not meant to garner to PvPers, it is meant to cater to role-players. PvP does have its conveniences but from what I've witnessed, there is a possibility that things have been in the process of getting out of control. One aspect of PvP default in Aegis that people are not so prone to remember are diamond bandits, a very prominent annoyance on King's Road, and early Asulon. One of a handful of reasons the server was made RP default initially.

 

With that said, I am not asking for RP default, I am simply requesting that zones be made like you have proposed. However PvP zones would receive less land in ratio to RP zones. 'Badlands' vs 'RP capitals' - We do not need nature preserves for RP in the form of cities.

[gabriel101x1 463]

Additionally with removing majority ruling, you can literally have a single person be the "*******" that makes everyone else PvP.

 

The next point is far more subjective, however it is my personal stance on general PvP default. This is based on what I've seen, both in Aegis, and now. PvP is competitive, and fun, I consider myself to be above average in terms of PvP and I do enjoy it.

 

However I do not think it should be endorsed on LotC.

 

One prevalent argument I saw during the PvP/RP debate was that RP took too much time. People just wanted to get on with the killing, it seemed. This is fine, and perfectly legitimate, however I would make the argument that if you do not have the 'time' to make someone's death enjoyable through role-play, you simply should not be killing people. No one is forcing you to be a warrior, and no one is saying you need to kill people.

 

This is a role-play server, 'light' or 'hardcore', it is still a role-play server. People should not be given 'RP nature reserves' due to the excess of PvP danger throughout the world. This is backwards, extremely backwards. People come here to role-play and some people, myself included, enjoy the opportunities and surprises within a role-play combat session.

Much agree with this point.

[Hiebe 2493]

Make the wilds badlands and the worldpainted area rp default and have a ic warning given when entering badlands.

[monkeypoacher 8055]

Just add VAs back and make them less about Psych 101 and more about tropes and roles the villain would take on, and make the new VAT less nitpicky.

We need storytelling back desperately. The stupid ****ing free-for-all of needless combat with no real motive is the problem.

[Aislin 4354]

While I agree that we should not be endorsing PvP on the server, I don't believe that necessitates removing PvP default or re-adding RP default. It's easy to vilify PvP, as it often results in people who don't want to get killed getting killed. However, the issue is the events culminating to people wanting to PvP.

 

I believe it is not as simple as "PvP IT3m HUNGree TRoALS!21!@!23289ONETWOFIVE GHTNIE!!!!". While some do enjoy PvP, it is almost impossible to find people that do not enjoy roleplay at all (otherwise they wouldn't be here). As a result, it's a logical suggestion that, in theory, people could be guided to RP'ing a lot and not PvP'ing. However, I feel the issue is that these people have found themselves with nothing to do but PvP. Yes, there is always RP, but talking about the weather and drinking in a tavern is only entertaining for so long. People want adventures, stories to tell, fun ****. PvP is essentially the only way for that to happen right now.

 

Perhaps if we had plugins that emphasized non-pvp aspects of the server, such as a dungeon plugin, a mob boss plugin with mobs limited to certain dangerous areas of the map, and other ****, then people wouldn't feel the need to clicky clicky others to death.

 

Tl;dr the problem isn't PvP, it's the fact that LotC needs other things to do besides pvp or rp.

 

I'm too lazy to respond to the other contradictions in policy because there are simply too many.

[CosmicWhaleShark 2488]

We are allowing essentially free lore, free magic, free villainy. Role-play at this point is essentially up to the player's discretion, which could be considered fantastic. There is no regulation beyond simple observations of blatant power-gaming.

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/forum/104-event-proposals/

 

You want an event within your area? Make a proposal either here on the forums, or PM an ET.

 

It's easy to say PvP is your only source of entertainment, but from my experience since... Always - I've only ever /had/ to PvP three times on my characters personally, I would argue against that statement. The only reason I ever felt the need to PvP is because other people forced me into it.

 

There's an excess of various things to do within LotC, especially now, considering the lack of restrictions. PvP is not the only solution to entertainment.

[Ever 2648]

Tl;dr the problem isn't PvP, it's the fact that LotC needs other things to do besides pvp or rp.

 

hey look it's that thing I've been saying for like a year now!

 

LoTC is at its best when it's treated as a roleplay-server on an MMORPG. People get too caught up in RP or doing stupid stuff like hacking so their side wins in a PVP war instead of chilling out, building a house or city with friends, and grinding up some money or spending a few hours mining with buds. It also doesn't help when the server moves away from the MMORPG aspect but I think we've been headed in the right direction the past 6~ months.

 

But Aislin pretty much hits it on the head. There needs to be more to do than just RP or PVP, because both of those things get stale if that's all you do. I signed up to LoTC for roleplay and stayed for the addicting community and gameplay.