[Feedback] Player Use Of Ban Reports, Gm's Verdicts.

[Jistuma 1996]

I will start this thread with what I think is the major issue. Players don't want to ban report.

 

There are a few things that come bad with making bad reports, some are very bad things. Of those I can name are:

 

• Talking to the player that broke rules.

This I believe has been one of the biggest reasons players don't make ban reports. I mean seriously, someone just no-rp'ed killed me, made me angry, desrupted my fun, interupted my roleplay, took or destroyed my items... and I have to talk to him? About what? Getting my items back? Then what? Tell him I'm still making a ban report because he no-rp killed me? This while of course being extremelly angry, meaning I will probably insult him and threaten him, which will make my ban report useless because "You didn't try to talk it out with him." No one wants to talk it out with someone else who interfeared and broke rules unless he just doesn't care much, which means he wouldn't want to ban report anyway most likely, or be something that happened that the player probably thinks was a mistake, and shouldn't be ban reported anyway. For other rule breaking the talking can't even be done at the time, and has to be done through forum pm's or skype or ts. This means you would have to wait for the other person to respond, and that could take days, meaning you probably have forgotten by then.

 

• BR's take time to make.

This is one of the most normal reasons why players don't make ban reports, it's boring, and it takes long. I'm serious. From getting the format, checking all the screenshots and videos to see who needs to be added, contacting everyone who is being ban reported saying he has been ban reported, checking and adding the rules broken, and the worse of all, explaining exacly what happened. This can take up more than 30 mins, I'm not joking. That's why players go with "I can't be bothered to ban report him."

 

• Needs proof.

Not saying it shouldn't need proof, just that lots and lots of times players don't have it. Screenshots aren't taken all the time, pushing up chat doesn't go all the way up, things like logs aren't accepted as proof, sometimes plugins work bad and so the proof isn't right (example is being killed and it showing the mcname of someone else). Some of the proof is actually extremelly hard to get, and sometimes not enough. Metagaming is one of them, because everyone has had that "He's bloody clearly metagaming!" and can't do a thing about it. Harassment involves getting screenshots before the actions become harassment. Repeat actions are mostly also impossible to gather, because most times, the repeated action is not done to the same players. Minor stuff that a player can't be banned for unless he keeps doing it, and if he does, he probably won't be doing it to the same players.

 

• Probably the accused won't be banned.

The amount of no-rp kills that have resulted in a warning or a "you didn't talk to him" or "it was confusion" are so many... Here are a few, I have nothing against the players that were ban reported, sorry that you're in my examples.

 

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/111118-report-on-phillylewis-ez-ban-tho/page-2

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/111117-ban-report-on-csalz96/

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/111126-report-on-sgt-kipples/ (I actually don't know why there isn't a verdict on this one)

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/110622-player-report-on-ww2buff-no-rp-kill/

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/110533-ban-report-on-wolfdwg123-and-sandk1ng/ (One shout and killing after the player didn't stop or responded, I consider that no-rp, but others might not, so debatable)

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/110351-player-report-on-knox213/

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/110220-ban-report-on-trevent-and-kingwithkittens/ (this one was dropped)

 

7 or 6, even thought they could all have reasons, they are still a lot. Most ban reports don't reach anything, and players know that. Unless they have definitive proof can they ban report, and even so, many times the other player leaves with a warning or with nothing. Only big things actually get people banned. Repeated, with proof, of powergaming, proof that someone knew that something is against the rules and doing it anyway, pugsy, proven harassment.

 

• Many ban reports require GM assistance.

For things like griefting, stealing too much, killing animals, abusing bugs, etc. Modreq has to be done, and that means that the GM is in charge of banning or not the player.

 

• Gather hatred from other players.

Everyone knows this. You ban report someone, that someone, and the friends, are going to dislike you. A bit or a lot it doesn't matter, it will happen. You tried to ban them, tried to remove them the game they play. If he gets banned, the friends might try to make your enjoyment worse. Things like looc comments of the kind of ((lets go, he might ban report us)), ((oh, are you going to ban report us as well?)), and simply ((Go **** yourself)). They might also metagame, you know, one of those things that are almost impossible to prove, and target the character and start harrassing, something that is also extremelly hard to prove, expecially when done in group. If the accused doesn't get banned, that means the one who could have gotten banned because of you, didn't. It's like the friends thing, but now you have the actual accused still in the game, the one that can actually take it personal. You person can also start to gain a reputation and be ignored, harrassed and so on, not only by the friends of the accused, but by others as well.

 

• Creation of drama.

Do I need to explain this one? Ban reports create drama, drama that places the reporter in the middle of it. It's not like watching drama unfold for fun, like many of us do (I do a bit as well, and many of you do, don't deny it!), but you're the scource of it, and in the middle of it. Ban reports many times bring unwanted attention, even the mention of it does. Heck, I'm probably creating drama by posting this thread, even thought I don't want any.

 

• Responding to defenses.

You already wasted so much time gathering the proof, filling the ban report, and now you will have to take even more time and respond to the accused. Most of the times the same points are even said many times, over and over again. Even if one of the rules is that no discussion should happen in the ban report, it happens, and there isn't much of of stopping it. It takes a long time, somtimes even days, it can make you angry, it can make you facepalm irl.

 

• It can put you in trouble.

Oh, I think everyone knows about this. The players that post the ban report, and instead of getting someone else banned, get banned themselves. I've seen this many times, and you can say "They shouldn't be rule breaking to start with," and in those ban reports where the accuser got banned? Most likely. Thought, the fear is still there. I powergamed a bit, I metagamed a bit, I attacked someone without pvp warning, I insulted someone, I have an item that I shouldn't have, etc etc etc. Everyone has broken rules, even Danny has admited to it once, and he was an admin that left without any problems concerning those. Many GM's admit it actually, and I can as well. I have powergamed, I have metagamed, I have completely destroyed part of the map in my first week on the server, I have broken lore, and I have probably insulted someone. Never has been enough to actually get a ban, or even a warning. Thing is, sometimes those small things get shown in the proof you leave for banning someone else, and then you get in trouble.

 

 

 

As for how to fix these things, I have very little ideas. Players say "If someone breaks rules, ban report them" many times, and I believe that is a very poor argument because of all the things I have said above.

 

My sugestion to some things is removing the "talked to the player" part from the ban reports, they bring more drama than remove ban reports, and allow rule breakers to stay on the server because the person ban reporting didn't talk to them about them breaking the rules.

Gm's should probably start banning people for breaking rules as well. No-rp kill is one of the most easy to proof rule breakings, and many of the rule breakers of that don't get banned. Ban them for a day or a few hours if you don't want to make it too bad, but don't just ignore that they broke rules and forgive them because they returned the player's items. Same for all the other stuff.

I could also say to make ban reports private, having the GM's decide if the accused should be banned or not, and if not, not telling the accused a thing. This would make them not know and so not be able to hate the player, nor have their friends get angry as well.

If GM's have proof of rulebreaking, punish the player, even if others don't want to. A player powergamed, but wasn't enough to create a ban report. He repeated it after being warned to someone else, and the second player who didn't mind it because he's a good sport. If a GM gets screenshots of the second enconter (and has screens of the first), he should ban him. Things like no-rp kill are again ideal to demonstrate this. A no-rp killer should be temp banned, or warned severely, even if a player drops a report of them, they still broke the rules, they still disrupted the rp or enjoyment of someone. A one day ban is not all that bad to anyone, but it still leaves the player who broke the rules know that he shouldn't have broken them. Or a ban until appeal, or anything really, depending on severity.

 

Well, I think that's all I can think of to say, I want to see if others agree, disagree or whatever =P

 

[edit]

 

Oh I forgot one thing.

 

GM's banning when players break rules and they see it. I know it happens, but many times it doesn't. Example is the raid fiascos that have been happening, no one has really been banned for it, and the reasons? They would have to ban a lot of players, too many, and they can't get the proof (GM's write ban reports as well, they need proof to ban someone.)

 

My opinion on this, ban the ones you can after warning. A group of 30 players is breaking rules, screenshot, make a video, etc, and start banning. Even if one by one. After banning the first, he got unlucky. Others say "Why didn't you ban me?" respond with "I don't have proof, were you there breaking the same rules?" If they respond yes, mhh... ban them... Yes you'll get hate, you already get hate now, but one thing you would get as well is players following the rules. Fear aprouch, I know, it would be better to give them reasons to follow rules, than reasons to not break rules. Examples of reasons to follow rules is like promoting roleplay and peaceful interaction between players, that hasn't been working so well, so my opinion is in giving them reasons not to break rules (being banned.)

[xenenxnennxnx 99]

Solid. I agree 100%

[Lago 2572]

My sugestion to some things is removing the "talked to the player" part from the ban reports, they bring more drama than remove ban reports, and allow rule breakers to stay on the server because the person ban reporting didn't talk to them about them breaking the rules.

 

It may look like that rule is pointless, but we never actually see how many ban reports are averted by that rule.

[Jistuma 1996]

Oh I forgot one thing.

 

GM's banning when players break rules and they see it. I know it happens, but many times it doesn't. Example is the raid fiascos that have been happening, no one has really been banned for it, and the reasons? They would have to ban a lot of players, too many, and they can't get the proof (GM's write ban reports as well, they need proof to ban someone.)

 

My opinion on this, ban the ones you can after warning. A group of 30 players is breaking rules, screenshot, make a video, etc, and start banning. Even if one by one. After banning the first, he got unlucky. Others say "Why didn't you ban me?" respond with "I don't have proof, were you there breaking the same rules?" If they respond yes, mhh... ban them... Yes you'll get hate, you already get hate now, but one thing you would get as well is players following the rules. Fear aprouch, I know, it would be better to give them reasons to follow rules, than reasons to not break rules. Examples of reasons to follow rules is like promoting roleplay and peaceful interaction between players, that hasn't been working so well, so my opinion is in giving them reasons not to break rules (being banned.)

[Blundermore 2741]

A more Aegis styled approach to GMing from what I see. A lot less bureaucracy and more ban first ask questions later like how some GMs used to do it. Resps did it often and I guessed it worked. People with a smart assed attitude had to watch themselves around those kind of staff members. 

[Cyndikate 2303]

I agree. Ban reports are pointless and because of this you see players breaking server rules and display blatant disrespect for their community.

I want to suggest removing the requirement to "work things out" with them because 1. It makes ban reports even more tedious. 2. It allows players to actually follow the server rules. And 3. No one should have to talk it out with blatant malicious players who thinks it's funny to RP baking Autism pie.

We need to encourage players to ban report offenders as they see them, while still lending a hand to new players.

[Sky 0]

Oh I forgot one thing.

 

GM's banning when players break rules and they see it. I know it happens, but many times it doesn't. Example is the raid fiascos that have been happening, no one has really been banned for it, and the reasons? They would have to ban a lot of players, too many, and they can't get the proof (GM's write ban reports as well, they need proof to ban someone.)

 

 

 

But seriously, there have been a lot of people banned after the raids and such, just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. ;)

[Jistuma 1996]

 

 

But seriously, there have been a lot of people banned after the raids and such, just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. ;)

Maybe it's the new ones, I even remember talking to GM's about it =P

[Aelu / Rel (Combustionary) 1540]

I'd agree with removing the 'talking to the other person' part.

 

If it's just a misunderstanding that could be talked out, chances are the ban report will be dropped mid-argument on the forum.

 

In every other case, the 'talking' is just "I'm going to BR you". Most things that actually lead to bans aren't arguable (Metagaming being the big one that is, but most people don't make BRs for metagaming unless it's fairly clear). You can't 'talk out' a no-rp kill. Nor can you talk out any obvious rule breaking. Sometimes it happens because a player is just new, but that's generally revealed in the BR discussion.

 

Another thing I dislike is the leniency the GMs have gained lately. Clear cut rulebreakers (who've been banned in the past) get off with obvious infractions with naught but a warning. That shouldn't happen. 

[Temp 2006]

 

Players don't want to ban report.

Omerta.

We see it, we know violations happen but we don't care to talk.

Besides, what fun is an empty server? BRs are withheld for major violations or repeat offenders. Just how some of this stuff works.
 

[Dyrr 137]

I really agree with this post. +1

[Rhia 936]

Moved to the Great Library. It shall be sorted into appropriate category shortly.