Your View: War Claims And War Rules

[hellfiazz 879]

You are not entitled to your own special area, no-one is. You RP as a part of the LOTC world, not as a special part of it unless you're playing an event character or such. Since you are part of the world, you are subject to the ebbing and flowing of it.

War has been a fact of life throughout LOTC, as much as high fantasy is or a Minecraft is. There always has been war, and most likely there always will be. You are role playing as a moving part of a world that on the large scale nigh-on revolves upon war. The aim is to have fun yes, but the point is to have fun through role-playing as part of this world, a world of bloodshed.

You need to accept that not only are you not a special part of LOTC, but that you are also part of a world of war.

[AlmondTree 418]

You are not entitled to your own special area, no-one is. You RP as a part of the LOTC world, not as a special part of it unless you're playing an event character or such. Since you are part of the world, you are subject to the ebbing and flowing of it.

War has been a fact of life throughout LOTC, as much as high fantasy is or a Minecraft is. There always has been war, and most likely there always will be. You are role playing as a moving part of a world that on the large scale nigh-on revolves upon war. The aim is to have fun yes, but the point is to have fun through role-playing as part of this world, a world of bloodshed.

You need to accept that not only are you not a special part of LOTC, but that you are also part of a world of war.

 

So the people that do not want wars and such, where are they supposed to go? Are we to tell them straight up to accept it? In other words telling them to *** off? Nah yo, If it's not fun then people won't play. Those that wants war could probably war with those that seeks war and leave the others alone. Then both sides get something. Shizz needs to be toned down, getting old.

[hellfiazz 879]

The point is that you inhabit a world of war and so RPly you should be taking steps to either use that to your advantage or deal with it. War won't go away, but you can deal with it better through the following methods:

1. Better defences / guard. I won't lie and say this will stop war from hitting you, but it will help mitigate the effects.

2. Diplomacy. Becoming vassals, making alliances, giving tribute. All these will stop at least some factions from attacking you, and with the former two you'll have some other factions coming to help you.

You might not like war, but unfortunately it comes to all corners of LOTC eventually. It can't be cured but it can be treated.

But I must ask you a question. How many of you would rather have one battle and have to move your RP hub than have many raids constantly and over a long period of time? The former is a temporary problem, and it can be solved in a matter of days at least and weeks at most. The latter will cause you and your community much more grief over a much longer period of time, regardless if any limitations out in raids (bar banning them altogether, which would result in massive outcry). A denied Warclaim won't stop you getting grief, it will only exacerbate it. A Warclaim accepted lost or won (a term of your own victory in a defence could be the halting of all aggressive actions from the attacking faction and it's people) might be painful in the short-term, but it will soon pass.

[CosmicWhaleShark 2488]

The aggressive players can find enjoyment among themselves. That'd be a start. I remember a few occasions where the Dwarves and Orcs decided to go to war just because they thought it'd be fun. They were right, by the way, those were the most enjoyable wars I've taken part in. That was because the leaders were on relatively good terms with each other and both sides were able to regulate themselves to a surprisingly efficient degree. This was Asulon, by the way.

 

Actual rules though regarding war claims are a bit more complex, simply due to the many, many opinions.

 

Considering the recent examples we have to go off of in the ways of war claims, I do have to say it's important we allow the denial of a war claim. The potential for them to be utterly petty is there, so players should be permitted to drop out if OOC negotiations fail. Denial can also be abused, and it has, but protecting players from direct abuse is more important than punishing them for indirect abuse. Basically, direct abuse has the ability to **** the other up severely, indirect abuse simply does not allow any damage to occur - to either side. Lesser of two evils, there.

 

SupremacyOps' term is golden, so implement that.

 

Now for the long shot. Since war claims are a bit of a rarity today due to raid reforms, grr, perhaps the system should reward those that actually do take part in cooperative and enjoyable war claims? Why create a system that can be worked, abused, and 'accidentally' misinterpreted?

 

Allow the leaders to make their own terms for their own specific wars between one another. A GM can review it, of course, but once again part of role play is to enjoy it, to be creative. Those that take part in war role play should be permitted to make their own fun, so to speak. If there does happen to be a dispute between the two sides, simply submit the dispute to a staff member who's capable of providing a neutral solution.

 

If both sides agree to something, there's less chance of strife to occur. The chance is still there, yes, but cooperative wars = fun wars, from my experience.

 

TL;DR - Reward nation leaders who actually do make war claims to make their own terms. Rather than a system that is supposed to provide a sweeping brush to all situations, and inevitably be abused.

 

If a nation tries to pull a fast one and raid the other without accepting the terms... Heh, well, Supremacy's rule comes into play. You get what you give, in that situation.

[Cyndikate 2303]

I remember the conclave getting raided constantly and there was only one warclaim on them, which was accepted.

Explain to me how nonconsentual war is going to make a difference.

[AlmondTree 418]

I remember the conclave getting raided constantly and there was only one warclaim on them, which was accepted.

Explain to me how nonconsentual war is going to make a difference.

 

It wont, players find new ways to bully and make the enemy give up.

[hellfiazz 879]

One example out of hundreds. You said on Jojoma's thread you could name a few Warclaims that resulted in OOC drama. Well that's a few out of hundreds of other accepted / forced Warclaims that didn't, and resulted in far, far less strife than the raid wars of the Fringe, which were a symptom of the changed war system. Regardless of the few examples of situations that resulted in some OOC strife that lasted maybe a week, the OOC effects of the Fringe Wars are only just now beginning to subside, a few months after their climax.

Surely you can see that a system that results in a few months of OOC resentment is far inferior to one that results in a week or so of OOC resentment in only a small portion of situations?

[AlmondTree 418]

One example out of hundreds. You said on Jojoma's thread you could name a few Warclaims that resulted in OOC drama. Well that's a few out of hundreds of other accepted / forced Warclaims that didn't, and resulted in far, far less strife than the raid wars of the Fringe, which were a symptom of the changed war system. Regardless of the few examples of situations that resulted in some OOC strife that lasted maybe a week, the OOC effects of the Fringe Wars are only just now beginning to subside, a few months after their climax.

Surely you can see that a system that results in a few months of OOC resentment is far inferior to one that results in a week or so of OOC resentment in only a small portion of situations?

 

But not everyone likes war, that needs to be respected. Warclaims can happen but when it comes to having land taken over then that's too much. I have said it over and over, people are here to enjoy themselves and if some fwit comes trying to ruin their fun cause they want more land then most certainly the players affected won't be happy. It's not about some dumb thing saying "Losing pixels" it's about having put time,effort and heart into a place where group X wants to be as friends and stay as friends, It's almost like a rollback. You get irritated when you spent time building something then for some reason the is a rollback, tell me then that you won't be upset mon. I can pretty much swear on that almost every one here stays with their friends in groups. It's only human.

[CosmicWhaleShark 2488]

Surely you can see that a system that results in a few months of OOC resentment is far inferior to one that results in a week or so of OOC resentment in only a small portion of situations?

 

It just comes down to cooperation, really, as arbitrary as that is to say...

 

Here's an example, I suppose.

 

During the initial confrontations between the Orcs and Kharajyr I was the... Therkul... If I'm remembering the title right. Basically the general. Pok or Austinpowers - maybe others, don't remember - being the cool guys they were would collaborate with me on TS or through PMs and we would set up Orcish raids for the Kharajyr to repel and such. We even set up counterattacks and went to their place a few times, great fun, they were super good sports starting out especially - they would come in ruddy gear, obviously disadvantaged, and naturally the Kharajyr pummeled them. It did wonders for morale and my guys actually became enthusiastic about RP again, gave us a breath of fresh air.

 

There was really no point to the war, the Orcs were just being Orcs and the Kharajyr were defending themselves. IC tensions were enormous, but OOCly it was pretty chill. Things got a bit mucked up when one nation leader started bragging about the victories, but that's neither here nor there.

 

Point is, cooperation is the greatest asset to an effective war system, you're not going to get it with set parameters. This is war, there's going to be a loser, and not everyone wants that.

 

Hence why a reward system with parties that do cooperate with each other may be the most effective.

 

The staff would probably be better suited to decide what those rewards entail. I would suggest stuff that enhances the battle environment though, like siege engine fireballs and such, maybe broadcasts of the battle as it occurs. Make it more epic.

[Katherine1 362]

You are not entitled to your own special area, no-one is. You RP as a part of the LOTC world, not as a special part of it unless you're playing an event character or such. Since you are part of the world, you are subject to the ebbing and flowing of it.

War has been a fact of life throughout LOTC, as much as high fantasy is or a Minecraft is. There always has been war, and most likely there always will be. You are role playing as a moving part of a world that on the large scale nigh-on revolves upon war. The aim is to have fun yes, but the point is to have fun through role-playing as part of this world, a world of bloodshed.

You need to accept that not only are you not a special part of LOTC, but that you are also part of a world of war.

 

You are not entitled to force your own brand of RP on other people. By pushing your RP on other people, you have the responsibility to make it fun for them. The instigator of RP has a responsibility to make it fun for not just themselves. You need to put work into getting the people yo are warring with on the same page as you and interested in the war. You have to. Yes, both forced and consensual warclaims can be abused. Forced warclaims can be abused worse. If you're not willing to make the RP appealing for your enemy, then what is it you really want, OOC?

EDIT: Wardog is saying it really well *points*

[Lark 2227]

But not everyone likes war, that needs to be respected. Warclaims can happen but when it comes to having land taken over then that's too much. I have said it over and over, people are here to enjoy themselves and if some fwit comes trying to ruin their fun cause they want more land then most certainly the players affected won't be happy. It's not about some dumb thing saying "Losing pixels" it's about having put time,effort and heart into a place where group X wants to be as friends and stay as friends, It's almost like a rollback. You get irritated when you spent time building something then for some reason the is a rollback, tell me then that you won't be upset mon. I can pretty much swear on that almost every one here stays with their friends in groups. It's only human.

 

Not everyone likes war, that is true, but as hellfiaz said the server is ebb and flow, you must adapt to your environment and deal with it, that is life. Just because its virtual makes no difference. When you talk about time, effort and heart being lost can be applied to many things, magic...professions..etc...It doesn't matter. You have to suck it up and try again. It is exactly like a rollback and you know what people do after rollbacks? They don't fall to their knees, look up into the sky and scream bloody murder, or they do, but get right back to work because you know what, ship happens. You are correct on the last part because well, most people made their friends in the groups they joined. Though I don't see how it is relevant to the current topic at hand.

 

 

You are not entitled to force your own brand of RP on other people. By pushing your RP on other people, you have the responsibility to make it fun for them. The instigator of RP has a responsibility to make it fun for not just themselves. You need to put work into getting the people yo are warring with on the same page as you and interested in the war. You have to. Yes, both forced and consensual warclaims can be abused. Forced warclaims can be abused worse. If you're not willing to make the RP appealing for your enemy, then what is it you really want, OOC?

EDIT: Wardog is saying it really well *points*

 

Neither are you. Yet here people are demanding no wars because THEY do not want it. It is not just the instigator's responsibility to make the rp fun but the reciever as well! It is not a take situation, it is a give and take situation. Roleplay is not as selfish as you may think it may be. It is not one person's job to make roleplay fun but everyone's job to flow with the roleplay and make it enjoyable for everyone. 

 

If you're not willing to make the RP appealing for your enemy, then what is it you really want, OOC?

 

This goes both ways. If a group is going to whine about being warclaimed for taking land, what exactly do they want OOCly? Sympathy? Special Treatment? It goes both ways.

[Katherine1 362]

Neither are you. Yet here people are demanding no wars because THEY do not want it. It is not just the instigator's responsibility to make the rp fun but the reciever as well! It is not a take situation, it is a give and take situation. Roleplay is not as selfish as you may think it may be. It is not one person's job to make roleplay fun but everyone's job to flow with the roleplay and make it enjoyable for everyone. 

 

 

This goes both ways. If a group is going to whine about being warclaimed for taking land, what exactly do they want OOCly? Sympathy? Special Treatment? It goes both ways.

Yes, it does take some give and take, but a defender can't go find a different person to defend against if the attacker isn't making it fun. They are stuck with this not-fun force coming in and smashing their RP. The whole point of consensual warclaims is that it requires people to talk and make things fun if they engage in war with each other. The raid wars are a result of the fact that raid rules are so lax right now that it's easier to keep not giving a **** about anyone else's fun by using raids than it is to put in the effort to make a warclaim that is fun for everyone. There is always going to be those people who just aren't interested in such and such type of RP, and if it's the kind of RP that instigates itself on another group, it's going to cause OOC strife. Is leaving an obstinate group who refuses war RP alone really worse that forcefully smashing the RP of unwilling groups? These are the two ways both consensual and forced warclaims can be abused.

I suppose the whole point is that effort needs to be put in to make it fun for more than just the attacker, or else it turns into RP destroying OOC drama that no one finds fun.

[CosmicWhaleShark 2488]

Five hundred and seventy three accounts, I won't say members, stood almost perfectly divided on this issue. The real nuts and bolts of it comes down to not only convenience, but fun. PvP is convenient, yes, I acknowledge that. But two hundred and sixty accounts proclaimed they would rather have everything entirely role-played.

 

So, what is the issue? There is a portion of the server who is being dominated by PvP because it is in fact default, and they do not want this.

 

https://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/114566-feedback-reformations-opinions-issues-and-solutions-oh-my/#entry1091884

 

It does go both ways, Lark. I think your issues are just as skewed as anyone else's. The raiders and PvP oriented folk are being fully obliged, currently, and here you are asking for more with war claims. A person doesn't have to go balls to the walls to make the other person's experience enjoyable, but... Some degree of effort goes quite a way.

[Lark 2227]

https://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/114566-feedback-reformations-opinions-issues-and-solutions-oh-my/#entry1091884

 

It does go both ways, Lark. I think your issues are just as skewed as anyone else's. The raiders and PvP oriented folk are being fully obliged, currently, and here you are asking for more with war claims. A person doesn't have to go balls to the walls to make the other person's experience enjoyable, but... Some degree of effort goes quite a way.

 

You mistake my asking for more warclaims for more fighting. I seek sensible warclaims, not endless fringe fighting. I hated that with a passion.

 

 

Yes, it does take some give and take, but a defender can't go find a different person to defend against if the attacker isn't making it fun. They are stuck with this not-fun force coming in and smashing their RP. The whole point of consensual warclaims is that it requires people to talk and make things fun if they engage in war with each other. The raid wars are a result of the fact that raid rules are so lax right now that it's easier to keep not giving a **** about anyone else's fun by using raids than it is to put in the effort to make a warclaim that is fun for everyone. There is always going to be those people who just aren't interested in such and such type of RP, and if it's the kind of RP that instigates itself on another group, it's going to cause OOC strife. Is leaving an obstinate group who refuses war RP alone really worse that forcefully smashing the RP of unwilling groups? These are the two ways both consensual and forced warclaims can be abused.

I suppose the whole point is that effort needs to be put in to make it fun for more than just the attacker, or else it turns into RP destroying OOC drama that no one finds fun.

 

 

But what if the defender is the provoker? If its the attacker being greedy then consensual warclaims make sense. But I'm more worried about if the defender starts it and then doesn't want to go through with the consequences because "They aren't interested in war roleplay"

[Kanrath 190]

In the end again its no different then slave rp or torture rp or what have you. It inconveniences the victim and can easily turn un enjoyable, which is why things like them have a need to consent rule on LotC. Wars should be treated no differently then these because again its someone forcing their type of rp on another. That's why you either work to make it enjoyable so more people are willing to participate or you realize something is seriously wrong with your way of rping and rework it.

 

The fact someone does not want to accept your war claim is NOT them forcing their rp on you, because your are the initiator and thus you are the one responsible. War rp can happen with both groups enjoying it and having fun, but to do so the understanding that you have no more right to your war rp then anyone else does to theirs as so many of you "Let me go to war on anybody any where" folks have so thoughtlessly pointed out in arguments against people denying war claims. Stop saying "its my role play so deal with it" because that's just a round robin argument that's going no where.

 

 

Now of course say someone pokes and prods you with raids and insults, then yes them denying your war claim is just being a rude rude person and it should be dealt with, but the same can't be said in situations where you keep raiding a place and they suddenly slaughter your group during a raid, because its you trying to trigger a reason to war claim them just like recent events have been clear attempts to create a reason to war claim.