[MAT/LT] Magic is borked.

[Sagwort 833]

Allow me to cite Brandon Sanderson's (Famed fantasy writer) Three Laws of Magic Systems:

 

Before I begin this overly long winded explanation I would like to point out that comparing rp to writing may seem a bit like a straw man type argument.  However, I firmly believe that every roleplayer and every lore writer is in fact an author contributing to the grand Odyssey that is LotC.  Note that these are Brandon Sanderson's ideas, not mine.  I take credit for none, I am simply the messenger.

 

Also note that Sanderson stresses that his laws of magic are not concrete or the end all be all of writing (or in our case roleplaying).

 

While this is literal wall of text, and I did my best to break it up with colors (yay!) I URGE you to read this as I believe Sanderson as some excellent ideas and probably much more success and experience with producing magic systems than we do.

 

As roleplayers involved in a community we can actively change we are both the author and the readers.

 

The 1st Law: An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands the magic.

 

Sanderson states that there are two forms of magic systems: Soft Magic and Hard Magic.

 

Soft Magic is the older form of magic that has been a long established tradition in fantasy for decades.  This sort of magic does not completely explain how or why magic works thus producing a sense of wonder and a sense of tension as man becomes a far tiny part of the universe, a small part in a much larger scheme seemingly driven by magic.  Authors known for this sort of style are Tolkien who never really explores the full power or mechanics behind the Istari Wizards or any other sort of magical figures within the book.  However, the defining feature behind this sort of magic system is that magic is VERY RARELY used to actually solve conflict or problems within the book.  In A Song of Ice and Fire, by George R. R. Martin, the world of Westeros is filled with magic that is hardly explained and rarely used and yet the entire overlying plot of the North, long winters, dragons, etc... are driven by magic.  Thus, the reader feels that despite the political story archs there is something darker, more mystical, and perhaps too large for any man to handle hanging over the characters you grow to hate and love.  It is this lack of understanding that produces this sense of wonder, fear, and tension. Think of the Cthulhu mythos: ancient gods that we petty fleshlings could never defeat.  Creatures so powerful that they don't even bother dealing with the affairs of mortals. 

 

Now many would agree that this is the "ideal" sort of magic for any proper fantasy setting, and to be honest, LotC at one point had a very Soft Magic sort of system.  Early Aegis for example; we knew of these great powerful Ascended and Undead, but the common player had not a clue of their dealings or how their magic worked.  Thus, this sense of awe, fear, and wonder was produced.  Unfortunately, it would be near impossible to return to this state as LotC is a community based around structure and rules, any sort of RPG or RP sort of game generally is.  As players, as mages, we want to be able to solve conflict with our magic as the knight solves conflict with a blade or a baker solves conflict with an oven.  We cannot have a system of magic that is poorly understood because it would be difficult to affect RP scenarios with it as people would feel cheated, feel it is somehow unfair.  Similar to how we might feel if Gandalf simply flew the Hobbits to Mordor, to use a soft magic system to regularly solve conflict, even everyday conflict, would only detract from rp.

 

Hard Magic, on the other hand, is the system we very much use now.  This is the system where the author explicitly explains the rules of their magic system to the reader.  This way the reader, or the roleplayer, can feel that they are part of this magic.  Characterization can occur, plot twists, and clever uses of the rules can be applied to various scenarios.  If the roleplayer and/or reader understands the magic they can use said magic to solve (and even cause) problems.  Rather than having conflict mystically solved by magic (Which we often view as cheating) magic suddenly becomes a tool that needs to be used properly and understood to be used to its full potential.  Note that when Sanderson says "Hard Magic" he does not mean magic needs to follow scientific laws or even have the reader understand why magic works.  They simply need to understand what they can DO with magic, its limits.  Other instances of Hard Magic include most superhero stories.  As the story progresses we come to understand the limits of the superhero so we don't feel cheated when the superhero shoots beams out of his eyes because we say, "Oh, I've seen him do that before."  rather than if the superhero suddenly is invincible to bullets without explanation, which we would call bad writing.

 

Now Sanderson does speak of a median between these two extremes of magic.  He uses Harry Potter as an example.  Yes, we know what sorts of magic the characters know how to use, their abilities, their limits.  We even know how things such as horcrux's work.  Yet... we don't really understand the fully potential of magic.  Think of all the spells that might still exist in that universe that are never revealed in the books?  We never see the full power of Dumbledore, do we? Or even the full potential of Grindelwald.

 

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2nd Law: Limitations > Power

 

On LotC we are fascinated by the RED LINES of magic.  It is expected that every new proposed magic has some red lines to limit what the roleplayer  can do with said magic.  (ie. Becoming tired when using magic, needing a certain knowledge to cast a spell, growing physically weaker over time, not being able to make permanent evocations, mana.) This is meant to make the magic balanced within the LotC world, we view it much as a game developer might.  But let us view it as a writer might.

 

Sanderson states that the limitations of magic should not be used to "balance" magic but to add struggle, tension, and depth to the magic and the plot.  Struggle will force characters to work for their goals.  One such struggle causing limitation on LotC is not being able to levitate or enchant living things.  Granted we view it more as a red line.  But think about the struggle this might cause someone?  Suddenly the mage has to work harder, they have to think around their issues... unfortunately when people on this server try to be clever or witty with their magic they are generally called out.  This is why limitations exist though, for the mage to find ways to work around them.  Mayhaps if we view red lines as less of a balancing act and more as rp devices for use in day to day rp.

 

Tension, of course, is what makes rp most interesting.  Superman fighting any normal man is rather "Meh" because we know that Superman is so powerful, however... add kryptonite to the equation and suddenly we are at the edges of our seat, wondering how we will WORK AROUND this limitation.  See, on LotC when magic users face a problem involving red lines they are forced to or inclined to give up, we must embrace the idea of finding loop holes in the rules of magic, working out our problems with magic rather than viewing magic as a situational tool.

 

Limitations always create depth as well, making the magic less 2D and more 3D.

 

Sanderson goes on to explain the difference between limitations, weaknesses, and costs.  

 

Limitations are things the magic system cannot do (levitate living things, create permanent evocations, turn one material into another).  Rather than viewing limitations as rules and parameters we should view them as an extra dynamic to the magic, something that add conflict.  We don't necessarily need to change our need for red lines, to have these is very important.  However, changing the way we THINK about these red lines is what needs to happen.

 

Weakness, unlike Limitations, are things the enemy can exploit.  More character based weaknesses might be their moral principle, their addictions, etc...  Sanderson generally avoids weaknesses.  While he says kryptonite makes and excellent limitation, it falls short and becomes rather cliche eventually.  Need a way to check your man of steel?  Just add a situation he is powerless in.  This might seem equally as cheap as suddenly having all your problems solved with over powering magic.  Presently, we view red lines as weaknesses, not limitations.  They are made to check and balance the magic so that we can't go around force choking people or setting fires from a mile away.

 

Costs is something I personally think LotC does quite well with magic.  Costs range from our need for mana, the development of fatigue after long bouts of magic, insanity, physical deterioration, even something like unquestionable loyalty to a deity could be considered a cost.  Granted, Sanderson warns against too debilitating of a cost as it can easily lead to never having a good situation to actually use the magic in.  This often leads us to discuss why and how magic works.

 

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3rd Law: Expand what you already have before you add something new.

 

This law PERFECTLY explains the situation LotC is currently in with magic.  Sanderson explains that often times the most interesting magic based fantasies are not ones with a massive catalog of abilities but rather one with a few that has a great deal of depth.  Rather than produce magic systems that are the size of an ocean and as deep as a puddle, we should work on creating deep magic systems.  Focus on a few simple magical concepts and see how much we can do with those.  I could rant on and on about how we could do many of the new magics we have with nothing more than telekinesis.  Why summon rocks when we could just pick some up?  Why have a magic silencing magic instead of just getting creative with the way we use wards?  I could go on but you see my point.  Sanderson also notes that for a magic to be deep it needs to be deeply interconnected with society, culture the economy, etc... This is why I love the concept of Court Wizards and Magic Guilds (As you have seen my numerous attempts to produce successful ones.)

 

Essentially, Sanderson breaks down deepening magic into three different directions:

 

Extrapolate: This basically suggests that as writers (or lore writers) we need to think about how making changes to magic will affect the world and the magical community within it.  For instance, how synthetic blood might affect vampire culture.  We see how much the introduction of Arcane Engineering has affected our magic community.  No longer do we cast fireballs but we build machines with magic to do it for us.  Magic is now more mechanic and creation based rather than actual directly magic based (Which I have no problem with.)  Lore writers (And that goes for anyone who wants to write magic lore) should ask themselves "What happens when?..." whenever they intend to introduce a new form of magic.  How will this affect the magical community?

 

Interconnect: This suggests that magics should be both interconnected with other magic, characters, culture, etc...  One good example of culture and magic on the server is the religion based magics of Elves and Orcs with their druids and shamans.  Mages have much less of a cultural impact, it seems.  We should also not have strange "that's cool" magics that don't really with the dynamic of the server of even with your own character.  Think about what magics suits your character and might further their growth and add depth to them rather than what suits your "that looks cool" mindset.  Something that might go more for our lore masters is connecting magic to overarching themes within the realm.  Use magics the already exist to alter the realm, don't make up cool looking magics or ideas just for a certain event.  Consistency is of of utmost importance when producing viable magic systems, otherwise we begin to feel cheated again.

 

Streamline: This ties in with interconnection.  We as lore writers and players should look at our own characters, cultures, and magic and think "How can I combine these?"  Rather than inventing a whole new form of magic for a barely rped race of cat people why don't we use magic that already exists and think "Maybe these cat people think magic works differently?"  Or maybe they use fire evocation in different ways?  Maybe they tie something like conjuration into their own religion with rituals and ceremonies which may have no real affect on the magic itself but would certainly add dynamic to the culture.  I mean, think of the implications fire evocation could have on dwarven culture?  We just need to think of how dwarves would use this magic differently than say elves or if elves would even use it at all.  I believe leowarrior did a great job when defining how Mali should view fire evocation, as destructive.  Granted, the dwarves may see it more as tool rather than a corrupting force.  

 

 

DON'T CREATE, ADAPT!  DON'T ADD, EXPAND!

 

I know there is a whole nother psychology behind this community as well with cliques, and relationships not covered by authors... something we may never truly solve.  Buy maybe applying these rules to our way of viewing magic may help.

 

 

 

[Space 2335]

1 hour ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

Yes please. And maybe make it so it doesn't take an actual IRL year to master the magic. I understand that becoming a master druid is a big milestone but maybe we can make it a milestone we achieve through RP training rather than just having to wait an ass-load of time. A lot of people don't have a year of their lives to devote to an RP magic.

++++++++++1

 

It's really silly how like every other magic on the server has an aspect (hurhuruhhr) training and study so you can like rp the learning process and it's not just a set time-- But Druidism is literally just 'wait and rp like you go meditate sometimes' with no real need for there to be a teacher-- Which kinda lowers the amount of RP, makes it slightly confusing to accurately RP your abilites. Druidism doesn't fit that teaching system, since it basically bypasses the teaching system and thus the point of the teaching system (preventing powergaming and ****). So I think it should be moved to a more 'normal' set, with actual teaching that isn't 'show me what you can do, oh you can't do that, concentrate more, ok there you go.'

 

or something

 

Also I don't have much problem with magic system right now, although that's probably cause my experience is just Druidism.

[Hiebe 2493]

Tired of trying to get a teacher when no one will teach. Open up magics to be learned by the willing and allow them to add their own interpretation to the magic they learned

[Bloodnight 170]

just remove the ascended if we cant have an antag why should we have a protag doesn't make sense balance is not being satisfied. A lot of the magics now aren't really magical at all, they're just an excuse for cliquey players to keep power and support their friends exclusively.

[Song Druid 1486]

In regards to Druidism, we've quite recently held votes in regards to how we want to do growth and it was decided that it would for the most part remain the same save for a few edits.  Now obviously the Druids aren't going to let outside members decide the magic aspects.  But we're as open to revision as most any archetype it's just not something we are going to sit down and do week to week if we just happen to get 15 new members next month who don't like the way things are done.

 

I have many conflicting emotions and feelings as to how Druidism should be handled.  I'll say bluntly that it was originally a self taught magic.  It's a lot of meditating and practicing.  And those members who stick it out are rewarded in the end.  To respond to Artimec's post, I disagree completely.  I understand your points but we shouldn't make it easier for you to attain mastery of it.  Each one of those masters that exists put in the work and earned it and so should you.  Members who have tried to abuse the system by getting attuned and afking and coming back later to a strong character are not tolerated.  I would however be open to perhaps making it easier to become proficient in the art.

 

Also the fact that we have to cope with is time based vs effort based.  Time has to be involved, no doubt about it.  But it is logical to consider an effort or initiative based training.  What if somebody is just better with the magic?  What if they put in more hours studying? What if they learn more quicker? Etc.  But the problem there is that most if not all players approach this.  We have too many people trying to do so and thus it stops being special and becomes cliche.  This is why it is not done.

 

Now a revision of Druid magic has been recently proposed to put it to a three tiered system, wherein new druids are tier 1, most all other druids are tier 2 and master levels are tier 3.  This might satisfy some of the above critique, we're currently waiting on the person who brought forth the idea to document it formally so it can be submitted.  

 

Now if you don't know how to RP the magic at certain levels that's 100% on you.  The guides give pretty good indication of what you can/can't do per tier.

 

I had somebody recently tell me they thought the Druid lore was terrible, it kindof shook me a little bit.  I personally accept any and all input regarding it.  There are a few things that will most likely never happen, (ie becoming un guild locked), but I am not offended by critique regarding it.

[xDK 1205]

How to remove the "Group circle jerk" magic.

---

1. Remove teacher applications.

2. Make everyone with a normal Magic Application able to teach.

3. Add a new application for people who is being taught a magic from another guy with an approved Magic Application, with that teachers approval.

 

How to remove the "42 different sort of magics" problem.

---

1.

2 hours ago, Sagwort said:

DON'T CREATE, ADAPT!  DON'T ADD, EXPAND!

2. Stop redefining the essence of the base magic lore.

 

How to make magic more fun for everyone.

---

1. Stop comparing physics with magic.

2. Make it so that you are allowed to be creative with magic.

3. Make combat magic virtually impossible to come out ontop in a battle with, unless you're in a group.

[Mithradites 1168]

It's pretty out of date now, but I'll plug my old idea all the same.
 

 

[Cat Evocation 3728]

It kinda happened after we've become so laxed on how we regulate magic to make sure the users of magic is using it to provide roleplay and develop characters correctly instead of trying to be, as you put it, top dog in a bunch of branches of magic. Before it was pretty hard to get into magic when we had such a secure and heavily looked over regulations, and such is where one would be entrusted to roleplay a mage properly in it's entire. Nowa' days everyone and their mother is a mage. I don't believe in roleplay restrictions but I believe in management as many times before we seem to not be able to entrust other RPers to not PG or step over red lines, as when we do it seems to end badly.

 

 

Just my two cents though, I liked the post and agree with a handfull of the topics brought forth.

 

 

Edit: Most obvious fix -> Magic Plugin tm

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Crowbill 493]

5 hours ago, BrandNewKitten said:

I welcome a magic wipe. Not because there is too much magic because the more the merrier in my eyes (in terms of types) but because it's too commonplace and loose. You are correct in saying mage's can get god-builds but it's a bit of everyone's fault. I say write up a proposed system.

Tahmas would actually shank someone if that happened.

[mmat 7460]

I regrettably doubt that there will ever be a magic wipe because the people who make that decision in general benefit from there not being a magic wipe. Plus remember the bitching when monk and ascended magic was removed and magnify that by 100x. That'd be a pretty accurate depiction.

[zaezae 1098]

7 hours ago, drfate786 said:

 

This I agree with, but the issue still stands. Most magic teachers aren't really eligible for a teacher status because they rarely teach the magic to people they don't know in RL or for a very long time. For example, necromancy is entirely consisted of a very closed circle of friends and these friends would rather die then teach an outsider necromancy or let them have any involvement with them in OOC and RP. The reasons always vary from person to person but they always use some excuse to justify the action of keeping the magic to themselves. This labels them as special snowflakes in my opinion because all they really want is to hoard the magic for themselves, it's the same for a lot of magic too. People refuse to teach it or just generally aren't active enough to teach it. The worst part always comes when it ends up being an OOC influenced decision and not an RP influenced decision. I've seen a lot of people including myself get denied or avoided simply due to "past behaviour" or because "we don't like you OOCly but aren't brave enough to tell you to your face".  

2

You do realize that 'the darkness' has to be selective with members because LOTC isn't forgiving towards villains. If necromancers suddenly did stupid **** all the time I can promise you we'd see threads talking about the removal of necromancers.  Interesting though that only high fantasy and magic ever gets put on the chopping block. 

[youdude 104]

Magic needs a bit of culling and trimming to be manageable; Though a full on wipe would result on folk simply re-posting their old ideas. And while some magics are truly kept behind tightly closed bars and are kept into tight-knit communities; I assure you, with roleplay alone, you can worm your way into any of them. It is, for example how my character, simply by solving a trial gained Mysticism- Without even having prior knowledge to it's existence. Even OOCly I never really looked into it, and it was a surprise.
 

You pointed out my accepted lore, saying that it's a blatant example. Firstly, I'd imagine you only glanced over it since you either left out information to better serve your purpose, or didn't read them over. And as a bit of a self-defense, I should say that I've taken precautions to keep it from being bound to a close-knit community; Giving it triggers with which folk can naturally learn it. Mayhap these same precautions should be done for all magics, after a thorough trimming. 
 

Though then again, if it's 'too accessible', that tipping point of mystery and wonder would be breached. It's hard to balance, and the MAT and LT are doing their best, surely. But you have to keep in mind; They're only human.

But if the issue is powergaming, that's not truly something the lore or magic team can moderate. Magic is created with clear drawbacks in mind, and is only fair if they are roleplayed. If they are not, then yes; It's horrendous. If they are, it's fair; And that rule of "A trained swordsman is as good as a trained mage." holds true. I'm unsure if a magic wipe or re-write can ever fix that.

 

...Also I never wanted to start an uproar with my lore, I just did what players who have a desire to write lore do: I thought of a cool idea, presented it to the LT, and waited to see what they'd think of it! 

[Blundermore 2741]

I partly don't play a part in LOTC much anymore because of the fact that a lot of people attacked me for the character I played.

Really I wouldn't mind seeing magic going back to either two states, high fantasy where everyone is allowed the creative freedom to do what they wish within a guideline or to limit magic to a few individuals, or otherwise making it much more secretive and mystical. 

In LOTR for example you hardly had any magic users. And it worked pretty well, concentrating the RP to a select group of individuals that can be trusted to provide good RP without abusing the powers given to them in an Unrp way.  Problem is everyone wants to be that guy. The one with everything, the Dragonborn "I can be the head warrior archmageguild leader thieves master assassins master" etc etc... Coveting what others have out of jealousy, spite or otherwise. 


I remember in Aegis when only the Ascended, Undead and a select few had actual magic, and though yes it could be considered unfair in some ways it helped to make magic more meaningful than "Oh I can open this door with magic because why not" or "I'll stir this teapot with magic because I can". When magic becomes mundane and every day it's not magic anymore. It's just another tool. A force in the world as common as WIFI or electricity in our world. You don't hold either of those things in high regard or awe either do you? 

 

[Merkaken 516]

3 hours ago, Blundermore said:

I partly don't play a part in LOTC much anymore because of the fact that a lot of people attacked me for the character I played.

Really I wouldn't mind seeing magic going back to either two states, high fantasy where everyone is allowed the creative freedom to do what they wish within a guideline or to limit magic to a few individuals, or otherwise making it much more secretive and mystical. 

In LOTR for example you hardly had any magic users. And it worked pretty well, concentrating the RP to a select group of individuals that can be trusted to provide good RP without abusing the powers given to them in an Unrp way.  Problem is everyone wants to be that guy. The one with everything, the Dragonborn "I can be the head warrior archmageguild leader thieves master assassins master" etc etc... Coveting what others have out of jealousy, spite or otherwise. 


I remember in Aegis when only the Ascended, Undead and a select few had actual magic, and though yes it could be considered unfair in some ways it helped to make magic more meaningful than "Oh I can open this door with magic because why not" or "I'll stir this teapot with magic because I can". When magic becomes mundane and every day it's not magic anymore. It's just another tool. A force in the world as common as WIFI or electricity in our world. You don't hold either of those things in high regard or awe either do you? 

 

Have to disagree with you on most of these points, save for the creative freedom that should be allowed within a simple guideline.

 

A different server I roleplayed on had magic as simply this: watered down telekinesis. You could control any element (within reason) if you had magic, or control something else if you had a logical reasoning as to why it is happening rather than "Cuz magic". Something like this would be great.

[Zindran 590]

Moved to The Great Library. It shall be sorted into the appropriate category shortly.

 

If you feel this is a mistake, please contact myself or any FM and we'll restore it.