[MAT/LT] Magic is borked.

[Treshure 5817]

Topic of Issue: Magic is borked.
Brief Overview: Magic needs general reorganization and rethinking of of how it is supposed to function. 
Magic does not currently serve to define characters - it serves to make them stronger.

Which team can handle this issue best?: MAT/LT
In depth explanation: 

 

 

 

“This is my magic. There are many like it, but this one is mine”.

 

Please read the entire following feedback.

 

Right now, I feel the way magic is handled and the way it is perceived by everyone is grossly twisted in a constant effort to exert yourself over others. Many magics do not serve practical roleplay purpose, instead to boast insane levels of power over others. Many magics are clique driven, which is natural - as this is how a magic usually starts out. However, it begins to become locked to that friend circle, where nobody else can access it in fear it will “get into the wrong hands”. This, and much more.

 

Magic is inflated with a myriad of conflicting interests and ideas that span as long as it is somewhat conceivable in LotC’s lore. The lore addition system, to my understanding, works in the sense that everyone and anyone can contribute to the lore and add their own ideas. That's great! However, it has become less of contributing to the lore and thus the overall roleplay progression of Lord of the Craft and more so the desire to make the most dominant/intriguing magic. Oh, uncle Treshure, intriguing is good! Yes, it is, however it comes with the catch that you, the creator of the magic, grandfather it, and now you have sole jurisdiction of who gets the magic (in lots of cases). Some allow self teaching, but some make it near impossible. For example, the only way to self teach Necromancy is to acquire the fabled Necronomicon… however sucking your way into a Necromancy clique would be a far easier feat!

 

I am not saying all magics are like these. Many magics have two sides to the table, and it really depends on who uses it. For example, I created Beardmancy in the sense to make a light hearted magic based on lots of guild activity on roleplay. The magic was intended to augment normal RP and spread news of the “Beardmancy Guild”. Harmless, yes? The magic was removed due to powergaming, where it was used to do inconceivable, violent actions. I see many players using magics to strengthen your characters, but many do not roleplay the side effects that are intended to balance it. A lot of it has to do with the player, but a lot of it has to with how magic is regulated, accepted, and implemented - things that the staff can change.

There is no way to change a player mentality - however giving hits to a crack addict isn’t going to help the problem. Players have created their own magics that outright dodge conventional magic backgrounds. It is snowflaked so nobody can harm their magic because of intricate mechanics. I am not throwing shots at any Necromancers/Blood Mages/Frost Witches (For example) because I practice anti-magic - it only shows the further mentality that people want to make their creation special.

 

Currently, as it stands, we have 42 subtypes of magic on the server - and many players compete amongst themselves for who teaches which, and who can create the best absurdly overpowered combinations of the subtypes. Many of these magics do not contribute at all to roleplay. A magic has been recently accepted that evokes mana draining rifts and augments all spells in result of coming in contact with a Voidal Horror. The spells are warped to look evil and gross - the only drawback being insanity, which I will guarantee, is almost never roleplayed. The literal purpose of this magic is to make all other magics stronger, and to drain mages, to.. You guessed it! Get more mana for your spells! I literally cannot think of any conceivable situation where this adds to roleplay - it is given a brief reason to this magic, as a mage reaches into the void and comes in contact with the voidal horror. There is your explanation, now hand me some power. At this point, it is blatant. There is no point of having one of the more traditional magics (Say, fire evo) if I can have this new one, where there are only (3) people in it, and it is much more powerful. Aren’t we special?

 

Magic has become a cesspool of dozens of subtypes with no general direction. Each subtype narrows it down to very specific abilities - there is no such thing as an overarching wizard. Wizard of what? Arcanism? Fire evocation? Wind evocation? No, sorry, I am a wizard of transfiguration. Proposals have been given before that narrow things down to few mega-archtypes, simply different types of mages with varying abilities. This was shot down - “I created this special magic, and it doesn’t deserve to get collaborated with others! Let it be separated and special”. I swear to God, the LT/MAT need to switch their mentality from “let's find the most intriguing magic” to “would this actually contribute to LotC as a whole?”.  Things need to be narrowed down heavily to where a new player doesn’t contract a disease deciphering the forty two subtypes (Playable creatures excluded!) and figuring out what they want to do. A new player will most likely come to the server with a broad goal in mind. For example, he will say, “I want to be a sorcerer!”. LotC will say, “Which type of sorcerer? We have a dozen subtypes from you to choose from, so do not worry.”

 

Or, “I want to be a dark mage!”. LotC replies, “OK. But which type? Necromancer? Shade? Frost witch? Blood mage? Fi’hiiran’tanya? Mysticism? Soul puppetry? Damn you, choose!”. In this current state - it will only increase. More ideas, different schemes to add more and more subtypes to dilute magic. Why do you think some nations have completely dropped the notion of practicing magic altogether? It has not been about enriching roleplay for a long, long time.

 

I will use an example of this concept - Blundermore. I personally did not know the man, and only perceived the situation from a new player. He went around, preaching good and (essentially) his religion. His magical abilities aided in his legacy as a Wizard - though his purpose was not to boast as a wizard, but to drive a roleplay purpose behind it (I believe, Ascended. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen posts hating on him for his floating island - simply because it did not fit within their strict standards of how magic operates. Because god forbid it strays from those rules, the world might collapse! Magic is not magic anymore - it is a strict set of mechanics that, if you are clever enough to understand a find a way around, you too can now have a powerful subtype all to yourself - to distribute amongst your friends and boast to others about how good it is. Can’t find your way around voidal mechanics? Just make a new Aenguldaemon, and they’ll give you whatever you want - exactly how you want it.

 

Magic is polluted with subtypes and infested with a power mentality. The LT/MAT must work together to simplify it and bring it back to where it promotes RP rather than power mongering - thus getting rid of special snowflakes, which will ultimately bring the most conflict out of anything.

Magic does not currently serve to define characters - it serves to make them stronger.

[Tom_Whiteman 949]

I absolutely agree. Completely agree.

 

Although I do not agree with creating a single "tree" for mages, and allowing them to learn branches. Such as dark arts, etc.

 

Okay... Let me expand on that: no, I don't want more subtypes to be condensed into one large tree. I merely agree with how the LT see magic lore, they look for things that aren't similar to one another. Magic should be considered upon quality and possibility- not whether if some attributes to the magic mimic another. However, yes, a magic should be denied if it fully mimics another.

[Malaise 1570]

I've long been in favor of being locked to archetypes to make magic define characters.

[TeaLulu 1783]

While I agree with you largely except for locking people into "trees" (As that stifles their ability to grow their characters), I also need to disagree with you on targetting the Unsound magic, when it has multiple drawbacks for the magic besides insanity; Backfired spells, failures, etc, etc. By your logic, because "people won't roleplay the downsides", then Fii magic should also be completely removed, because in all of history maybe one or two have properly roleplaying the side effects, so its been proven with that magic that people won't roleplay the downsides, unlike with this new magic that hasn't been around long enough to see.

[Lego XBOX 915]

Some of these subtypes may as well be archtypes. All the dark arts are distinctly different in source and action, you couldn't combine them into a 'tree'.

 

However, there are arcane arts which could do away with subtypes, like evocation. All forms of evocation are the same in principle, the only thing separating their use being the element which you need to study to summon.

 

Alteration subtypes are more distinct between eachother, but there has already been 'compacting' of magic in the past. Transfiguration used to be three different magic types you had to learn and MA separately, now it's all in one - as is regarded as a very big subtype.

 

Illusion subtypes are also quite distinct in their action, and arguments can be made for and against their melding.

 

Shamanism subtypes I know little about, but could certainly be combined. Most shamans are adept in all shaman subtypes...

 

Holy magic is only separated into subtypes by who their aengul is, not by powers. They are as over arching as they can be..

[Treshure 5817]

1 minute ago, TeaLulu said:

-snip-

 

 

It is illogical to create an extremely powerful magic with equally heavy drawbacks in hopes that a player will follow them - this is blind faith in essence.

[Booklight12 481]

I agree with a lot of points you raised, some not so much mainly in the sense of creating new magic lore which I believe is fine as it is imo. Magic should be compacted. Druids do not need 3-4 subtypes for the magic. All we need is druidism as a whole. Then the druids/paladins/clerics or whichever aengul group you are can split the subtypes in RP since they are more hands on teaching processes. Clearly tell your dedicant "you cannot shapeshift, but you can do this." Currently magic is treated with very clear cut redlines, what whats, and so forth like the community are simple minded children. Now the case can be made that we do have younger members in our playerbase, however I believe that we should put more faith in our community by compacting subtypes, technically buffing magic however making each archtype/subtype of magic unique. We only need one illusion-mental magic, we only need one evocation, we only need one clericalism no war priest and healers, and so forth.

 If all these magics are compacted and given more creative freedom, I know I and many would still Rp them the same. If evocation were compacted to one subtype I would still only have my char use Wind magic. There will still be some who claim they know all elemental magic to super power their character (Like you said can't change a persons mentality) however I can guarantee there will be a great few if not majority who will not do so.

 As for drawbacks, what really is the point? There are many that claim that you cannot gain power without sacrificing something. Or that it'd be too over powered if there were no drawbacks. Though we all know why many draw backs are there. 9 times out of ten they are there simply to balance a magic so it doesn't seem overpowered. I personally have no problem with this new unsound magic. It seems cool, and I really like the idea of someone using voidal horrors to help them in magic. Do I care if a spell backfires? Or if they are able to empower their magic? No. People just need to get the idea out of their head to balance, rationalize, and simplify magic. It's magical.

 

[Stag 3230]

We are on an MC server with an incredibly strong emphasis on PvP combat. Are you surprised that roleplay shares similar traits? 

 

I welcome a magic wipe. Not because there is too much magic because the more the merrier in my eyes (in terms of types) but because it's too commonplace and loose. You are correct in saying mage's can get god-builds but it's a bit of everyone's fault. I say write up a proposed system.

[Aislin 4354]

what if it was like dragonballz where you have power levels and one player (maybe a friend of a GM) gets to be like goku and always gets stronger no matter what

[Vasemir 16]

Quote

Things need to be narrowed down heavily to where a new player doesn’t contract a disease deciphering the forty two subtypes (Playable creatures excluded!) and figuring out what they want to do. A new player will most likely come to the server with a broad goal in mind. For example, he will say, “I want to be a sorcerer!”. LotC will say, “Which type of sorcerer? We have a dozen subtypes from you to choose from, so do not worry.”

42 types of magic, different magic sources, complex cosmology and metaphysics of different magic powers are exactly the thing that is most interesting in LOTC universe. "Special snowflakes" are not the problem where it comes to magic - because it's magic, it should be mystical, magical, often not completely understood and strange. It's great that there are magics that are nearly impossible to self-teach like blood magic or necromancy; however I'd like to see it completely impossible.

 

Quote

Then the druids/paladins/clerics or whichever aengul group you are can split the subtypes in RP since they are more hands on teaching processes. Clearly tell your dedicant "you cannot shapeshift, but you can do this." Currently magic is treated with very clear cut redlines, what whats, and so forth like the community are simple minded children.

Well, If it's right that mages usually don't properly roleplay their flaws, then why would they suddenly properly roleplay those magic subtypes borders? I believe it has to be strict and clear with large playerbase.

 

 

I believe it's up to MAT to choose right magic teachers, because they are the foundation of magic roleplay. It's really upseting when you see things like small advertisements "I will hire a mage to teach me". Hell no - things like magic should be elite, should require time and sacrifice and should be rewarding spectacular in the end.

There should be no dialog like "- I want to be dark mage! - Ok, choose which one", that Treshure stated. It should be more like "- I want to be dark mage! - **** you, work for it, do it via IC".

Strict power levels, "cans" and "can'ts" do with magic surely helps managing it. If there is problem with mages, then solution should be verification of people who brought them in and will bring next ones - I assume those are teachers and most powerful T4/T5 mages. I don't really see how could students make recurring mistakes, If we assume that teachers were exemplary.

[Treshure 5817]

12 minutes ago, Vasemir said:

-snip-

 

This mentality is what led to the complete removal of the MAT, magic applications, and the tier system. Magic should be mystical, yes, though it should not involve "grueling work" to achieve. In the past, the tier system and the magic applications led to an extreme elitist system where old members and mages were glorified and new players were **** on and ostracized from their communities. This led to a lot of OOC conflict and spite that still lasts to this day. You had to become special friends with teachers and generally suck up to get magics. Without self teaching, the magic system becomes entirely clique-driven and not roleplay driven. "Time and sacrifice" (What?) directly translates to OOC catering. Roleplay should be fun, engaging, and interesting. It should never be a chore. My dialogue was only to explain how convoluted and needlessly complicated the system is. In many universes, magic is ambiguous and never clearly defined through singular subtypes. It is always "The Wizard" or "The Sorcerer", etc. Obviously if this was on LotC, a clear set of abilities would be represented, but the point stands. 

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

1 hour ago, Booklight12 said:

 Magic should be compacted. Druids do not need 3-4 subtypes for the magic. All we need is druidism as a whole. It's magical.

 

Yes please. And maybe make it so it doesn't take an actual IRL year to master the magic. I understand that becoming a master druid is a big milestone but maybe we can make it a milestone we achieve through RP training rather than just having to wait an ass-load of time. A lot of people don't have a year of their lives to devote to an RP magic.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lego XBOX said:

Some of these subtypes may as well be archtypes. All the dark arts are distinctly different in source and action, you couldn't combine them into a 'tree'.

 

However, there are arcane arts which could do away with subtypes, like evocation. All forms of evocation are the same in principle, the only thing separating their use being the element which you need to study to summon.

 

Alteration subtypes are more distinct between eachother, but there has already been 'compacting' of magic in the past. Transfiguration used to be three different magic types you had to learn and MA separately, now it's all in one - as is regarded as a very big subtype.

 

Illusion subtypes are also quite distinct in their action, and arguments can be made for and against their melding.

 

Shamanism subtypes I know little about, but could certainly be combined. Most shamans are adept in all shaman subtypes...

 

Holy magic is only separated into subtypes by who their aengul is, not by powers. They are as over arching as they can be..

Dark Arts could easily be rendered into different categories, because all magic (including the Dark Arts to a degree) is centered on a source. Shade and Frost Witch arts could be considered deific while Mysticism and Necromancy are 'Mortal Arts.'  Ideally I would place --

Mortal Arts:
Mysticism
Necromancy
Blood Magic

Fi'hiiran'tanya
Deific: 
Frost Witch
Shade
Tahariaen Clerical
Xanist Clerical
Mael--t-rt-rooermeme Clerical
Shamanism (all sub-types, Dark or not)

Voidal [ All arts pertaining to the Void, good or evil. ]

If worst comes to worst, add Frost Witches to the magical entities/'creatures' list, same with Shades since they are individuals with warped insane beasts for second personalities. Most 'creatures' should be referred to as entities anyways since they're sentient. 

[drfate786 1690]

1 minute ago, Death Knight said:

Dark Arts could easily be rendered into different categories, because all magic (including the Dark Arts to a degree) is centered on a source. Shade and Frost Witch arts could be considered deific while Mysticism and Necromancy are 'Mortal Arts.'  Ideally I would place --

Mortal Arts:
Mysticism
Necromancy
Blood Magic

Fi'hiiran'tanya
Deific: 
Frost Witch
Shade
Tahariaen Clerical
Xanist Clerical
Mael--t-rt-rooermeme Clerical
Shamanism (all sub-types, Dark or not)

Voidal [ All arts pertaining to the Void, good or evil. ]

If worst comes to worst, add Frost Witches to the magical entities/'creatures' list, same with Shades since they are individuals with warped insane beasts for second personalities. Most 'creatures' should be referred to as entities anyways since they're sentient. 

 

This I agree with, but the issue still stands. Most magic teachers aren't really eligible for a teacher status because they rarely teach the magic to people they don't know in RL or for a very long time. For example, necromancy is entirely consisted of a very closed circle of friends and these friends would rather die then teach an outsider necromancy or let them have any involvement with them in OOC and RP. The reasons always vary from person to person but they always use some excuse to justify the action of keeping the magic to themselves. This labels them as special snowflakes in my opinion because all they really want is to hoard the magic for themselves, it's the same for a lot of magic too. People refuse to teach it or just generally aren't active enough to teach it. The worst part always comes when it ends up being an OOC influenced decision and not an RP influenced decision. I've seen a lot of people including myself get denied or avoided simply due to "past behaviour" or because "we don't like you OOCly but aren't brave enough to tell you to your face".  

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, drfate786 said:

 

This I agree with, but the issue still stands. Most magic teachers aren't really eligible for a teacher status because they rarely teach the magic to people they don't know in RL or for a very long time. For example, necromancy is entirely consisted of a very closed circle of friends and these friends would rather die then teach an outsider necromancy or let them have any involvement with them in OOC and RP. The reasons always vary from person to person but they always use some excuse to justify the action of keeping the magic to themselves. This labels them as special snowflakes in my opinion because all they really want is to hoard the magic for themselves, it's the same for a lot of magic too. People refuse to teach it or just generally aren't active enough to teach it. The worst part always comes when it ends up being an OOC influenced decision and not an RP influenced decision. I've seen a lot of people including myself get denied or avoided simply due to "past behaviour" or because "we don't like you OOCly but aren't brave enough to tell you to your face".  

To be honest there is a fair amount of OOC and IC involved with choosing apprentices, I personally ensure my chosen students don't PG and are creative and artistic role-players, but not everybody can get the magic. Most my guys got the magic by impressing me, assassinations, reconnaissance, etcetera. The perceived flaw in the teaching system is how strict it is and how hard it is to get magic, thing is.. it really isn't.