Archbishop 1784 Share Posted January 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, James2k said: "Which makes you look pretty pathetic to be honest. Honouring your contact of fealty to the Empire while it's in the midst of breaking its own one with your allies." "Either way they would of broken a treaty or agreement with whichever side they chose." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yopplwasupxxx 5946 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 minute ago, James2k said: "Which makes you look pretty pathetic to be honest. Honouring your contact of fealty to the Empire while its in the midst of breaking its own one with your allies." "The oath of fealty to the Empire trumps that of another union with another vassal-state. Besides the fact, Haense (both in its kingdom and ducal forms) have been both in contract for decades longer than the pact with Lorraine, with that only forming mere months beforehand. It is not 'pathetic', although you may think so for your allegiances, but rather following binding legal contracts which outplay other, small pacts. The fealty to the Empire is more important, as it is both older and in higher regard, and so Haense decided to follow the longer, more legal-binding oath than the Lorraine one." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
argonian 14254 Share Posted January 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, yopplwasupxxx said: "The oath of fealty to the Empire trumps that of another union with another vassal-state. Besides the fact, Haense (both in its kingdom and ducal forms) have been both in contract for decades longer than the pact with Lorraine, with that only forming mere months beforehand. It is not 'pathetic', although you may think so for your allegiances, but rather following binding legal contracts which outplay other, small pacts. The fealty to the Empire is more important, as it is both older and in higher regard, and so Haense decided to follow the longer, more legal-binding oath than the Lorraine one." "You missed my point entirely. Why would you hold up your side of the oath you have to the Emperor, while the Emperor's breaking his own oath with another vassal? At best it makes you naive and ignorant, at worst it makes you cowardly and insidious." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
seannie 7443 Share Posted January 10, 2017 "The people of Haense are traumatized by the effects of the Dukes War when they lost all they owned, I doubt they'll ever do anything significant again." shrugs a man overhearing the conversation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yopplwasupxxx 5946 Share Posted January 10, 2017 12 minutes ago, James2k said: "You missed my point entirely. Why would you follow an oath you have to the Emperor, while the Emperor's breaking his own oath with another vassal? At best it makes you naive and ignorant, at worst it makes you cowardly and insidious." "To answer your first point- Haense follows the Imperial Law accordingly and therefore will not commit treason, unless through the special case where the Emperor is deemed unfit to rule and henceforth forced to abdicate via the special use of the diet clause, but none of these rebels want to do such, but rather destroy Oren in its entirety. And to your second point- I will not defend the previous actions of His Imperial Majesty, as some were foolish in both idea and its execution. However, with the majority of the Lotharingian lords rebelling, with many only ennobled in the past year mind you, it was in His Imperial Majesty's desire to make sure the City of Metz was secured. It was no mystery about the on-the-fence attitude of the Archduke, and so His Imperial Majesty acted swiftly with his own agent. Was it foolish? Perhaps so. But will Haense raise arm for this rebellions led by those enemies which it warred with before? To disband an Empire, while albeit has performed some actions which some would seem vile, that has always in the end assisted the Kingdom of Hanseti-Ruska and her people? No, it will not. The Empire has never acted against Haense, and so Haense has no reason to betray its legal-binding oath to the Empire." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski_king3 0 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Icarus wonders how so many different individuals on opposing sides were managing to have a conversation about the validity or invalidity of this proclamation and how exactly he managed to arrive there. He shrugged, walking off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
argonian 14254 Share Posted January 10, 2017 17 minutes ago, yopplwasupxxx said: "To answer your first point- Haense follows the Imperial Law accordingly and therefore will not commit treason, unless through the special case where the Emperor is deemed unfit to rule and henceforth forced to abdicate via the special use of the diet clause, but none of these rebels want to do such, but rather destroy Oren in its entirety. "An oath of fealty that is not held up by both sides is merely enslavement of the vassal. If you're going to let the Emperor betray his vassals and his oaths, you're acknowledging that he has no obligation to any of his vassals." Quote And to your second point- I will not defend the previous actions of His Imperial Majesty, as some were foolish in both idea and its execution. However, with the majority of the Lotharingian lords rebelling, with many only ennobled in the past year mind you, it was in His Imperial Majesty's desire to make sure the City of Metz was secured. It was no mystery about the on-the-fence attitude of the Archduke, and so His Imperial Majesty acted swiftly with his own agent. Was it foolish? Perhaps so. But will Haense raise arm for this rebellions led by those enemies which it warred with before? To disband an Empire, while albeit has performed some actions which some would seem vile, that has always in the end assisted the Kingdom of Hanseti-Ruska and her people? No, it will not. The Empire has never acted against Haense, and so Haense has no reason to betray its legal-binding oath to the Empire." "The Archduke was hardly on the fence, he had just reaffirmed his loyalty to the Emperor the Saint's Day before the coup. And contrary to what you say, the Empire has acted against Haense multiple times. John IV publicly insulted House Barbanov numerous times, and Philip murdered a Raevir High Pontiff and installed a puppet who seeks to remove all Raevir influence from the Church(banning the Orthodox rite, attempting to decanonize Raevir Saints and later trying to remove them from the calendar, canonizing anti-Raevir militants such as Jack Rovin etc.). " "While yes, the Empire has never attacked Haense or threatened it directly, that is simply because they don't have the strength to. Haense makes up the majority of the Empire's manpower, and yet acts as if it owes thanks to the Empire and not the reverse. Had the Emperor the power and stability necessary, he'd gladly take any action possible to take power away from Haense and lessen its autonomy. This is clear to see from how he treats his other vassals, and in the company he chooses in the Church." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banard 116 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Owyn pulls back his crossbow's mechanism with a 'click' and waits in his armchair to defend himself if he was to become conviniently teleported into a cell by faulty spastics aswell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfamousGerman 1553 Share Posted January 10, 2017 "So be it, Lotharingian" says Marcion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gridlock 1033 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Willum wonders why the Lorrainian Duke felt the need to re-declare his rebellious nature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yopplwasupxxx 5946 Share Posted January 10, 2017 14 minutes ago, James2k said: "An oath of fealty that is not held up by both sides is merely enslavement of the vassal. If you're going to let the Emperor betray his vassals and his oaths, you're acknowledging that he has no obligation to any of his vassals." "The Archduke was hardly on the fence, he had just reaffirmed his loyalty to the Emperor the Saint's Day before the coup. And contrary to what you say, the Empire has acted against Haense multiple times. John IV publicly insulted House Barbanov numerous times, and Philip murdered a Raevir High Pontiff and installed a puppet who seeks to remove all Raevir influence from the Church(banning the Orthodox rite, attempting to decanonize Raevir Saints and later trying to remove them from the calendar, canonizing anti-Raevir militants such as Jack Rovin etc.). " "While yes, the Empire has never attacked Haense or threatened it directly, that is simply because they don't have the strength to. Haense makes up the majority of the Empire's manpower, and yet acts as if it owes thanks to the Empire and not the reverse. Had the Emperor the power and stability necessary, he'd gladly take any action possible to take power away from Haense and lessen its autonomy. This is clear to see from how he treats his other vassals, and in the company he chooses in the Church." "An oath of fealty which the Empire has never broken to Haense. Verbal insults does not equate into raising your sword and start killing, and Haense is not Raevir-Orthodox. By the Void, I would call Haense not even Raevir, with majority of both the populace and its noble houses abandoning the Botch and the archaic lifestyle of its peasants and military systems. Haense is purely Canonist and Canonist alone, not of any sectarian branch and so any removal of the old Orthodox system does not affect Haense in any way, shape or form. And if you read the recent Golden Bull, all five saints were merely 'relooked' on and all five were voted to remain within. (And if you wish to be technical, only three of the five were even Raevir by blood, and Saint Charles was raised by a Hansetian so that brings that count down to two). And there has been blessings of many controversial figures in the past, and another blessed to mark an unchecked list does not move people to drawing arms against the Empire. Again, while I will not defend some of the actions of His Imperial Majesty, but if the Empire wished to lessen the autonomy of the Kingdom of Haense they would never have granted royal pedigree to us in the first place, would have divided us from our vassals in Carnatia when they had the chance, and would have continued ban us from ever recruiting in the crownlands. The Empire would never have given the Kingdom of Haense thousands upon thousands of imperial crowns to expand into the northern wastes. Or granted complete pardon to both King Andrew (who denied it and was ousted by his vassals for such) and ever vassal in Haense, and in fact delivering us an Imperial bride for our fair monarch. And if what you say is true, with Haense composing the majority of Oren's manpower- why leave? Haense has a levitated position in both haggling with the Empire and getting special deals and rights. Why abandon such to uncertainty with a power like the former Courlanders that has warred with Haense directly before?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatzMomo 2088 Share Posted January 10, 2017 "ooooohhh" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergisala 3451 Share Posted January 10, 2017 "Ave Lorraine, ave the Rebellion" - would exclamate Alexander showing his enthusiasm to this proclamation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greener 687 Share Posted January 25, 2017 "Father would not of been proud" says Lucien the Bastard from afar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy 9739 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Moved to The Great Library. It shall be sorted into the appropriate category shortly. If you feel this is a mistake, please contact myself or any FM and we'll restore it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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