[Your View] Recent Defender Default change: Feedback

[ItzYoBoiEd 148]

On 8/31/2017 at 3:20 PM, Arygon said:

So many people voting no just because they lost gear from it.

 

They lost gear because guards are to lazy to rp an rp fight

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

33 minutes ago, PoliceAli said:

 

???

 

It sounds like If I were attacking someone and I wanted to move it to pvp and they wanted the opposite than I would be forced to rp fight? meaning that I would be forced to rp fight regardless of whether I wanted to or not.

 

They are giving someone else the ability to force something onto myself in this scenario.

 

 

Yep, exactly. You chose to attack them. Defenders dont choose to get attacked. Key difference.

 

No ones forcing you to rP, because you have the CHOICE to not attack people who will ask you to RP. Defenders dont have that choice.

 

Dunno why that's such a hard concept for you to grasp tbh

[LatzMomo 2088]

1 hour ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

Yep, exactly. You chose to attack them. Defenders dont choose to get attacked. Key difference.

 

No ones forcing you to rP, because you have the CHOICE to not attack people who will ask you to RP. Defenders dont have that choice.

 

Dunno why that's such a hard concept for you to grasp tbh

 

 

RP fights are incredibly long, often boring and neither side wishes to lose. Last time I fought one of the elberu or sirame or whatever they're called, they literally went ninja mode acrobatics level 80 on me. It was not fun at all, he stalled until you and a group of your goons showed up to attempt to bail him out.

 

I'll explain the situation for you. I am playing character Artyom Ruric, whom was the current King of Norland, Artyom has dispatched a diplomatic party to the High Elves, he was at the time attempting to gain ownership of the Krag islands from them. (This was during Vege's coalition with the Dwarves which ended with the destruction of Johannesburg.) For one reason or another, there is another diplomatic party of Wood Elves there, we spoke with some of the locals who expressed their distaste with the Welves, they explained they were being a general nuisance. Norlandic diplomatic party makes contact with a single Wood Elf in a far off isolated location away from everything and everyone else. Conversation goes south between two parties, Wood Elven party provokes response from Norlander party with insults and general arrogance, situation elevates into a fight, (Insults slinging back and forth goes physical) Elf player dodges every attack from 5+ players attacking him at the same time, doing incredible acrobatics in full armor (Yes, including backflips.) Player is slightly new, we attempt to help him with the fight in OOC, shortly after Leowarrior shows up with goons in the remote location and attempts to defend his player with diplomacy, diplomacy attempt fails, leowarrior retreats with goons, slinging idle threats as he leaves the new player to his fate.

 

The absolute last time I got close to something like an RP fight was when I was playing an Orc, we asked for tribute from the druids, a dedicant provoked the Uruk party I was with (Once again, new player) began to use magic which he did not possess, of course I have never played a druid so I could not accurately say if he was powergaming his magic. (Other Druids attempted to help him, explaining he did not posess magic yet.)More druids logged on, I got into a 1vs1 fight with a druid, who proceeded to dodge my attacks for 3 emotes, the RP fight was stooped there when bunches of them slowly began to log on and trickle in until it was four raiders and four defenders. At this point, it was 30 minutes before a warclaim which we needed to attend. There were eight players, and we needed to go quick, so we decided to default to PvP since eight was the maximum at the time. An arguement ensued, the druids claimed there was two fights going on (Two 2v2's rather than one 4v4.) we explained we (The Uruk side) were only one party so it was in fact a 4v4. The Druids called a GM, one whom I believe was sympathetic to them, and he ruled in there favor, we only had 15 minutes before the warclaim, so we didn't have time for the druids to continue to dodge our emotes over and over, we left. Shortly after, one of the druids became a GM and blacklisted one of our players for that event, something which happened before he was a GM.

 

This was the last time I did an actual RP fight, ever since then, the only combat I have gotten was from warclaims. Those are the last two RP fights I was involved in. I have not recently had a single fun RP fight that was not against members of the Event team.

 

I could maybe agree with you that RP fights are nice and fun if you yourself did not abuse them to turn situations into your favor. RP fights are often used to meta stall, and it's incredibly hard for staff to get enough evidence to pass judgement. Metagaming is blatant and occurs often. Obvious metagaming probably happens more then once per day, when there should be absolutely none.

[Narthok 10416]

RP default might be tolerable if staff actually moderated power gaming and handed out some sweet bans

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

1 minute ago, Gob said:

 

I don't remember this situation. I dont even vaguely remember something like this happening. I don't know if you are lying, or misremembering me in the place of someone else who was actually there, but I haven't had any confrontation with anyone from Norland outside of when their alts came trying to raid the wood elves.

 

Now, if a player is powergaming, then feel free to call a mod and have the issue sorted. If you are unwilling to do this, then do not engage in fighting someone who you think may ask you to actually RP out said fight. The example you listed (which I doubt even happened, given that I have no recollection of such a thing), still doesn't discredit the fact that you CHOSE to attack him, not the other way around. The only way you can be truly forced into anything is if someone initiates the RP on you, then forces you to RP fight.

 

If you are in your city, which is where people are most of the time, then you qualify as a defender already, given that the person you are attacking has broken the law and is antagonizing you. It was only because you were out in the wilderness that this new player evidently made you RP fight when you attacked him(?)

 

So, again, if you dont want to RP fight, dont attack people who will ask you to do so. The fact you aren't willing to RP things out even when you're the one going out your way to initiate a conflict w/ someone, while also wanting to be able to force them to PVP, says it all.

 

Dynamic RP is great, but its just that, RP. Attack whoever you like, wherever you like, but if you dont want to RP fight, then you know what to do. No one is forcing you to. Big chunk of players find PVP unfun, in the same way you dislike RP fighting. It is a bit hypocritical to think its totally okay to force them to PVP while totally unokay to make you RP.

 

All in all, I see the same 10-15 people disparaging RP combat on every single one of these threads. Its a minority wanting to be able to have free reign to force whatever they want on the majority, and they'll make whatever generalizations and exaggerations about how horrible unsalvagable and terrible RP combat is to get it. But, if you look at the poll, the numbers will tell you the truth.

 

 

[𝕾𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖚𝖘𝖍 2451]

16 minutes ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

All in all, I see the same 10-15 people disparaging RP combat on every single one of these threads. Its a minority wanting to be able to have free reign to force whatever they want on the majority, and they'll make whatever generalizations and exaggerations about how horrible unsalvagable and terrible RP combat is to get it. But, if you look at the poll, the numbers will tell you the truth.

 

You can't really act like we are a major minority though. We are still players on the server who consider PVP fun as well as it is quick and efficient for combat and when you look at the numbers:

 

 

75 players think Defender Default was a good change.

54 players DON'T think Defender Default was good change.

33 don't care about this forum BS

 

62 players say that the change positively affected them since its release

46 players say that the change negatively affected them since its release

54 players say the change hasn't affected them at all

 

79 people say that this has been a good change

61 people say that this has been a bad change

22 people don't know whether its been good or bad

 

You can say it's the same 10-15 disparaging RP combat but the numbers are pretty high up there and VERY close in range to one another.

[InfamousGerman 1553]

3 hours ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

Yep, exactly. You chose to attack them. Defenders dont choose to get attacked. Key difference.

 

No ones forcing you to rP, because you have the CHOICE to not attack people who will ask you to RP. Defenders dont have that choice.

 

Dunno why that's such a hard concept for you to grasp tbh

 

ah yes, we should pussyfoot around the opposing party and attempt to goad one side into attacking so my team can gain an advantage

 

i shouldn't attack someone who realistically would be my ic enemy because ooc barriers dictating combat so much for 'dynamic rp' you go on about

 

in addition to what gob said, it is miles easier to **** with the other side with an rp default leaning combat system. at least with pvp default stalling is painfully obvious with ((im not ready please wait)) for 10 minutes. Rp default system i can power game slightly and extend my chars lifespan, take more time than necessary to type out my emotes and become involved in an ooc argument to drag out what should be a 5 minute encounter to 45-1h encounter.

 

"if someone's powergaming just call a mod????"

if someones doing terrible villain rp just call a mod???!

 

the real kicker in this rp vs pvp default argument is that every argument works both ways 

 

 

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

4 minutes ago, InfamousGerman said:

i shouldn't attack someone who realistically would be my ic enemy because ooc barriers dictating combat so much for 'dynamic rp' you go on about

 

99% of banditry is motiveless, done out of boredom or determined by who is the easiest target or has the best loot. If you have a specific RP reason to attack someone, then you should be attempting to RP it out anyways instead of jumping to PVP.

 

Its not that much harder to call reinforcements for PVP than it is for RP, either.

 

Additionally, 99% of what people cry about when they say "metagaming" is when bandits come and cause open, public trouble in the most populated area of a city (i.e the main square or front gate where people naturally congregate), and act surprised when guards who live in the city and spend most of their time in that area by default anyways are able to respond quickly and in great numbers. And let me tell you, that's an issue that lies in the attacker's choice of location. RP or PVP, in a case like that, there is more than enough time for a defense force to form up before the fighting begins.

 

If you're attacking people inside a city centre, dont complain when you get overwhelmed. If youre attacking people outside a city centre where RP does NOT naturally congregate, and reinforcements show up inexplicably, then call a GM, because it is pretty obvious metagaming.

 

Like you said, every argument goes both ways. But the main tipping factor is that a minority wants to be able to force something unenjoyable for many, even when they're the ones attacking, whereas the larger group wants only to be able to get their attackers to RP, only if they are the ones being attacked or aggressed on. The goals on both sides are not at par. Also, this is an RP server, and for all the problems people claim about emote fighting, its still closer RP than PVP, especially when you consider PVP disregards all a character's strengths, weaknesses, magics and powers, and etc, in favour of who grinded more. PVP is a valid alternative if both sides prefer it, but not something to be forced on people in lieu of RP.

[InfamousGerman 1553]

33 minutes ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

99% of banditry is motiveless, done out of boredom or determined by who is the easiest target or has the best loot. If you have a specific RP reason to attack someone, then you should be attempting to RP it out anyways instead of jumping to PVP.

 

Its not that much harder to call reinforcements for PVP than it is for RP, either.

 

Additionally, 99% of what people cry about when they say "metagaming" is when bandits come and cause open, public trouble in the most populated area of a city (i.e the main square or front gate where people naturally congregate), and act surprised when guards who live in the city and spend most of their time in that area by default anyways are able to respond quickly and in great numbers. And let me tell you, that's an issue that lies in the attacker's choice of location. RP or PVP, in a case like that, there is more than enough time for a defense force to form up before the fighting begins.

 

If you're attacking people inside a city centre, dont complain when you get overwhelmed. If youre attacking people outside a city centre where RP does NOT naturally congregate, and reinforcements show up inexplicably, then call a GM, because it is pretty obvious metagaming.

 

Like you said, every argument goes both ways. But the main tipping factor is that a minority wants to be able to force something unenjoyable for many, even when they're the ones attacking, whereas the larger group wants only to be able to get their attackers to RP, only if they are the ones being attacked or aggressed on. The goals on both sides are not at par. Also, this is an RP server, and for all the problems people claim about emote fighting, its still closer RP than PVP, especially when you consider PVP disregards all a character's strengths, weaknesses, magics and powers, and etc, in favour of who grinded more. PVP is a valid alternative if both sides prefer it, but not something to be forced on people in lieu of RP.

 

if im going to attack someone with an rp reason I'll always be prepared for rp but if i war raid someone I'd like mechanic combat to get **** done, force a victor and go on with my day in a matter of a minute 

 

attackers don't really get a choice of locale because fast travels are right next to a city and you can't camp fts

 

i don't complain about fighting out numbered, i like fighting outnumbered and still can win outnumbered

 

if im attacking for good loot, then the opposing side should carry the same **** i have or better right? I've never grinded on lotc, i only kill the people that do

 

dont think im going to change your mind here Leo and vice versa I'll just agree to disagree

[LatzMomo 2088]

2 hours ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

 

This event did indeed happen. I remember you specifically, it's still vivid in my mind because I was so shocked at how blatant the metagaming was, and it was one of my last RP fighting encounters.

 

The player was indeed powergaming, however he was a new player, and there was no reason to call GM's when we were capable and happy to help the player ourselves. And yes, we did choose to attack him, we did not ask to change to PvP, we were all happy to do a role-play fight at the time, however, this event has changed my outlook on RP fighting with strangers.

 

I would be fine with RP fighting normally, but fighting with 8 other players is just aids, especially if you don't know them or if they're mostly or all new players or players who continuously dodge all attacks because they are nimble elves and actions against them are impossible because they're buddy buddy with members of the GM team.

 

I never said I should not be forced to RP fight. I enjoy RP fights when it is not blatant meta stall or powergame. I said I should not be forced to RP with eight other ******* players, that's ridiculous and it's not fun. It's too much and it's not the correct direction, people who already dislike PvP fights in the first place are only going to pull their hair out harder when it's a cancerous 9+ RP fight. This isn't going to change their opinion of RP fights, it's going to make it worse.

 

You seem to lump me with the rest. You are wrong.

[zaezae 1098]

No one forces anything...on either side. When you choose to play a game then you are participating in the game so...

[Narthok 10416]

11 minutes ago, PoliceAli said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

@rasiancharacters14 isn't wrong tho, the majority of raiding is for loot or pvp. Is that necessarily wrong, well thats up for debate. But to claim that the current state of raiding / banditing is anything but entirely cancer. Most of the time it consists of people trying to rule lawyer. 

[sidmmvv 203]

On 8/31/2017 at 1:59 PM, Harrison said:

We are currently looking at roleplay fighting.

 

I'd love to hear what you are looking at exactly? More so the magic side or the way it is done etc. 

 

I'd also like to express my view on defender default. Honestly, it is one of the best choices this server has made, I left the server for two years mainly because of PvP default back in the day. It ruined RP. Defender Default has brought back a sense of actually promoting RP combat, all be it I would personally want RP Default again like the ol' days, a big part of the server may disagree. I already know PvPers are gonna come here claiming the system is jank due to raiders getting RP fought. It is one of the best changes made and I think the ten player cap made it better. It was really tiring to have PvP started over 9 people. PvP ruins RP development which I know the PvP centered groups will disagree. To me it has become a faction server if anything, you dont see RP in some communities because they only come on to PvP. Leave defender default the way it is, people should know this is a RP server, not a faction PvP one.

[𝕾𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖚𝖘𝖍 2451]

I believe there needs to be clarifying on where Defender Default is truly designated. I have always considered Defender Default to be the choice of anyone that is the Dynamic Defender of the combat or situation. As an Orc, it is quite common for me if not enforced by lore to enter some sort of combat whether or not I am the one attacking or defending. I am going to provide two disputes that I was recently involved in and would like others to consider this:

 

Battling an Ivojur (Frost Witch Golem) and other Spooks

 

I will briefly explain the situation. After walking around Devirad, the Rex and myself passed by a Frost Witch den which was when we were spotted in Role-Play and were invited in to join the Spooks chat. Wud and I enter asking where the Green (Drugs) was at while we climbed the stairs in which we were immediately shown hostility. After all 4 of them started casting magic offensively towards Wud and I, we ensued combat role-play and after enough of the role-play had passed we asked if we could resort to PVP since we provided sufficient RP and were the ones being attacked.

 

Our points for receiving Defender Default to initiate PVP:

• We were invited in under their hospitality and when we tried to get the party going received a lot of aggression through the casting of their magic.
• We slowly tried to make an escape with all the magic casting, but were blocked off by fog turning into an Ice Wall within 2 emotes and shot at with projectile ice spikes to initiate the combat.
• We continued the combat to a point of being sufficient enough to enter combat in PVP and figured it might had been a reasonable thing to ask especially since they had Golem and Spook buffs.

Their points for receiving Defender Default to continue RP:

• An Ivojur (Frost Witch Golem) being a construct is a guard of Devirad
• They gave us more than enough time to escape before initiating combat on us.
• Since we were in the middle of Role-Play we were denied the choice to resort to PVP

Eventually, another GM that wasn't a part of this situation came to observe and could not determine who had the Defender Default as well. So instead the Role-Play was rolled back to the point of the Ice Wall forming, so instead of dealing with all of that again we decided to just leave.

 

---

 

Honor Klomping

 

This dispute wasn't as long as much as it was confusing.

 

The combat had meant to remain between Wud and SoulStrung as he was battling for redemption of MrPieMan, and since Wud sent the first head-butt SoulStrung considered it was his Defender Default where as others consider DD for National Defender . In the end, it didn't matter who had it because it was to remain between Him and Wud.

 

After some very little role-play afterward everyone began pulling their blades and weapons and for some reason turned into a brawl between those who were not participating in their conflicts to begin with each side having 5 or more people. I don't plan on getting into what happened afterward, but it was resolved and likely voided.

 

TL;DR

There needs to be clarification on what Defender Default is designated on. Many assume that it is the dynamic defender of the situation, but it is manipulated many times in the past and to this day where Defender Default is consider National or Region Defender.

 

[Priceflash 832]

21 hours ago, Humanistic said:

I believe there needs to be clarifying on where Defender Default is truly designated. I have always considered Defender Default to be the choice of anyone that is the Dynamic Defender of the combat or situation. As an Orc, it is quite common for me if not enforced by lore to enter some sort of combat whether or not I am the one attacking or defending. I am going to provide two disputes that I was recently involved in and would like others to consider this:

 

Battling an Ivojur (Frost Witch Golem) and other Spooks

 

I will briefly explain the situation. After walking around Devirad, the Rex and myself passed by a Frost Witch den which was when we were spotted in Role-Play and were invited in to join the Spooks chat. Wud and I enter asking where the Green (Drugs) was at while we climbed the stairs in which we were immediately shown hostility. After all 4 of them started casting magic offensively towards Wud and I, we ensued combat role-play and after enough of the role-play had passed we asked if we could resort to PVP since we provided sufficient RP and were the ones being attacked.

 

Our points for receiving Defender Default to initiate PVP:

• We were invited in under their hospitality and when we tried to get the party going received a lot of aggression through the casting of their magic.
• We slowly tried to make an escape with all the magic casting, but were blocked off by fog turning into an Ice Wall within 2 emotes and shot at with projectile ice spikes to initiate the combat.
• We continued the combat to a point of being sufficient enough to enter combat in PVP and figured it might had been a reasonable thing to ask especially since they had Golem and Spook buffs.

Their points for receiving Defender Default to continue RP:

• An Ivojur (Frost Witch Golem) being a construct is a guard of Devirad
• They gave us more than enough time to escape before initiating combat on us.
• Since we were in the middle of Role-Play we were denied the choice to resort to PVP

Eventually, another GM that wasn't a part of this situation came to observe and could not determine who had the Defender Default as well. So instead the Role-Play was rolled back to the point of the Ice Wall forming, so instead of dealing with all of that again we decided to just leave.

 

---

 

Honor Klomping

 

This dispute wasn't as long as much as it was confusing.

 

The combat had meant to remain between Wud and SoulStrung as he was battling for redemption of MrPieMan, and since Wud sent the first head-butt SoulStrung considered it was his Defender Default where as others consider DD for National Defender . In the end, it didn't matter who had it because it was to remain between Him and Wud.

 

After some very little role-play afterward everyone began pulling their blades and weapons and for some reason turned into a brawl between those who were not participating in their conflicts to begin with each side having 5 or more people. I don't plan on getting into what happened afterward, but it was resolved and likely voided.

 

TL;DR

There needs to be clarification on what Defender Default is designated on. Many assume that it is the dynamic defender of the situation, but it is manipulated many times in the past and to this day where Defender Default is consider National or Region Defender.

 

 

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If they weren't guards of the settlement and you were attacked then you had defender default