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I like the idea of bank account tax. It evens out the wealth scheme with a raw percentage tax. However, I should hope the tax stops once it drops under 500 minas again. Also, having a cap on how many minas you can carry should provide for some unique rp opportunities. Jobs for people to escort/carry money for higher-up exhanges will become more frequent. Overall, great job!!!

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Say goodbye to all the small groups.. and bring out the great depression in other places. Really don't agree with the 2 mina vote rewards and taxed for making mina... please rethink things before launch...

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7 hours ago, HurferDurfer1 said:

the amount you get is much to small for a nation to properly maintain anything, say your nation has fifty ACTIVE weekly players, thats a big ******* ask in the first place, then you need to get them to vote and pay taxes, the nation either has the option to tax a smaller amount and not make nearly enough to cover plot costs and the like, or tax citizens out the ass leaving actual trade and commerce screwed or making them barter, which doesnt pay the bills, not only that but you are now forcing groups that hadnt placed value in gathering alot of mina like high elves, halflings etc to try to actively maintain and gather mina now, this is a real bad take 

 

"Economy team plans to meet weekly and go over the data of what's happening in regards to mina, vortex, and the health of the economy. If we see changes are needed we will add more mina into circulation, buff or de-buff vortex nodes, and work with the techs on quality of life improvements. Please keep in mind we are working towards a system of mina exchanging of hands and circulating rather than sitting banks not being used. "

 

Nethertheless, a nation like Oren that needs 1200 Mina needs 10 active players to supply itself. (3x6x7x10=1260)

 

Since 3% means you have 50% of your money left after 5.19 months if there is no input, so I'm really not too worried. Especially because of the 500 Mina cap. When Mina are 10x more worth you'd basically have 5000 Arcas-Minas for free...

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Its a cap at 500, it doesnt start taxing you as soon as you have 500 and then never stop. Unless im totally misunderstanding, as soon as you have less than 500, the tax stops.

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 man

8 hours ago, Hiebe said:

**You can still store your mina in your bank above 500, but you'll start occurring a 3% weekly maintenance fee. Nation treasuries will not be effected by this. 

This is goofy and unnecessary and If you think anyone isn't gonna jump through bs loops to avoid it, I hate to tell you, but this is lotc.

8 hours ago, DahStalker said:

What does this mean for skinners? Let’s say I sell a skin for 600 mina. And I do two of those sold skins in a day and get 1200. I’m going to get a fee for putting in days of work and gaining a large sum of mina for it. This is going to make your skinners wanting to convert to USD and irl money payments.

This, exactly, as a skinner, I can not be fucked to deal with some pointless fee, if I have my mineman money, I don't want to lose it because of some dumb arbitrary negative interest meme.

 

7 hours ago, Sykogenic said:

Eh. 
 

This seems to me like it just further alienates new players and smaller groups, strong-arming them to join nations or face an uphill battle far too steep to climb. I understand the desire to want to reduce random charters and lairs that could be under nations, but I don’t think the blind “stick it to charters” attitude need apply to Mina and basic economic functions. 
 

Even if we assume that people will be able to make decent Mina with a little work, the arbitrary cap just winds up blindly benefitting nations and people with alts and VIP persona slots. Nobody will put 501 Mina in their bank when they could just send anything over 500 alt personas across multiple accounts.
 

To be a bit dramatic, it seems like putting a bandaid on a stab wound because you don’t have the tools on hand to stitch it up properly. Instead of fine tuning nodex, vortex progression, and other key features (you know, the stuff that the economy will hopefully be largely made up of), it’s just slapping arbitrary numbers on different values to force market standards to your own personal standard. 
 

 

Pretty much exactly this lmao
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Few months in, after having killed however many upstart small groups, inflation and workarounds will already have fucked over this goofy solution anyways, all it does is implement arbitrary rules in an attempt to quell the fuckery that normally happens. Knowing how most things go on here, this solution will probably turn into an even worse problem given time to fester, though I digress, I hope I am wrong.

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@Hiebe Will mina now be physical currency or is it just gonna be like how it was before? If it's physical I look forward to banking rp!

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I feel like this is punishing those that have to take a hiatus or are gone for several days and can't maintain thier voting. Not to mention those with schooling and irl jobs to focus on. More chore than enjoyment. 

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I feel like people are completely missing the point the world and economy team are trying to promote here. This doesn't discourage small groups from popping up. It encourages small groups to actually RP and go to nations and ask them for an opportunity to settle bellow them. I can't remember the amount of charters that just popped up in the Urguan mountains from night to morning without ever coming to the dwarves to ask for permission. This system makes it so small groups no longer gain lands purely OOCly and actually make deals with nations. It small groups to not be scared of the activity % and actually help the activity % of the nation. Its a win win situation. 

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13 minutes ago, Delmodan said:

I feel like this is punishing those that have to take a hiatus or are gone for several days and can't maintain thier voting. Not to mention those with schooling and irl jobs to focus on. More chore than enjoyment. 

 

If you have any other ideas how to prevent money losing worth by mass inflation through endless money influx with barely any sinks, feel free to tell the economy team or me, I can give them to the team. 🙂

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Hiebe also said that he with the economy team will study the economy weekly. So... if something is not working out it will probably get fixed soon.

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im not really that much of a fan of the punishment for having money in the bank sure in IRL some banks have that but that only counts when the accounts holds a pretty darn big amount of cash and its not like you will be able to base the rate thats gonna get taken due it raises as soon as your piggy bank does, so i have to ask, do we have other options instead of using a bank to store dat cash?

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10 hours ago, Sykogenic said:

Eh. 
 

This seems to me like it just further alienates new players and smaller groups, strong-arming them to join nations or face an uphill battle far too steep to climb. I understand the desire to want to reduce random charters and lairs that could be under nations, but I don’t think the blind “stick it to charters” attitude need apply to Mina and basic economic functions. 
 

Even if we assume that people will be able to make decent Mina with a little work, the arbitrary cap just winds up blindly benefitting nations and people with alts and VIP persona slots. Nobody will put 501 Mina in their bank when they could just send anything over 500 alt personas across multiple accounts.
 

To be a bit dramatic, it seems like putting a bandaid on a stab wound because you don’t have the tools on hand to stitch it up properly. Instead of fine tuning nodex, vortex progression, and other key features (you know, the stuff that the economy will hopefully be largely made up of), it’s just slapping arbitrary numbers on different values to force market standards to your own personal standard. 
 

 

 

I completely agree with this.

 

It seems like this economy system is just attempting to push players towards joining a nation if they actually want to make any economic progress on the server. This completely discourages players from joining smaller settlements because there are so many perks that nations get that start rendering settlements even more pathetic than they were before.

Settlements already don't get prebuild (made even worse with the new vortex systems), get a limiting amount of land, aren't physically allowed to even own a bank according to some economy team members, and have to pay thousands of minas for an auction house (while we've got the massive tax to work through because settlement banks aren't exempt from it as nation banks are).

 

Also, settlements don't get advertised to new players through /places, or don't appear on signs, making their population extremely difficult to grow even after going through all these restrictions in place that push players away from them-- and on top of that, we don't get nodes on our tiles to start, and are expected to save up 10k minas (with the full tax, might I add) in order to make any economic progress or be able to build our city without going bankrupt paying massive nations for materials.

 

All in all, the only thing this new economy does if force players who don't enjoy roleplay in larger nations to join them anyways, because settlements have so many restrictions implemented on them it will be months before there's even a viable and enjoyable place for them to roleplay set up.

 

 

45 minutes ago, SoulReapingWolf said:

I feel like people are completely missing the point the world and economy team are trying to promote here. This doesn't discourage small groups from popping up. It encourages small groups to actually RP and go to nations and ask them for an opportunity to settle bellow them. I can't remember the amount of charters that just popped up in the Urguan mountains from night to morning without ever coming to the dwarves to ask for permission. This system makes it so small groups no longer gain lands purely OOCly and actually make deals with nations. It small groups to not be scared of the activity % and actually help the activity % of the nation. Its a win win situation. 

 

Also, we had this discussion in the World Team discord a while ago, forcing some settlements to vassalize underneath nations makes the server far less fun for them. Especially in places like Talon's Grotto, which is a place where a lot of the population dislikes roleplay in larger nations, hence why they came to a settlement that is unaffiliated with them. Once more, this just forces people towards nations who don't want to be there in the first place. I believe systems in this server should be made about the fun of the playerbases they are made out of, and these changes make things a lot less fun for players who prefer to roleplay in smaller, more independent settlements.

 

And in active settlements like Talon's Grotto, activity is never a bother. We've been getting 3%-5% activity for the last couple of months in Talon's Grotto-- that's a large portion of the server who came there because they have no desire to roleplay under nations.

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4 minutes ago, SoulReapingWolf said:

I feel like people are completely missing the point the world and economy team are trying to promote here. This doesn't discourage small groups from popping up. It encourages small groups to actually RP and go to nations and ask them for an opportunity to settle bellow them. I can't remember the amount of charters that just popped up in the Urguan mountains from night to morning without ever coming to the dwarves to ask for permission. This system makes it so small groups no longer gain lands purely OOCly and actually make deals with nations. It small groups to not be scared of the activity % and actually help the activity % of the nation. Its a win win situation. 

This doesn’t destroy all small communities, no.

 

It just makes them all subservient to nations since the rules are likely too harsh for any but the most dogged to try and be independent. Sure, their nation overlord can be lenient on them and have their vassalage be more of an OOC thing to get them land than an RP relationship, but at that point, why is there any need for them to be a vassal OOCly if nobody acts like it.

 

This is the relationship between the halflings and wood elves right now. Halflings exist on their tile, and we have good relations with each other, but that’s as far as it goes. We tag along with them because it’s much better than getting grinded into a pulp by policies designed to make independent settlements have a hard time. I expect that this sort of weird OOC vassalage will be more common in 8.0. The nation gives a group land in exchange for their activity numbers, and then let’s them do whatever without bossing them around too much. Maybe they’d get taxed or something too, but with the 500 minas cap I doubt 

 

So you’re completely right in that this system doesn’t literally kill off small groups. It just makes their existence be at the whims of their nation overlord instead of the staff overseeing charters. Since 8.0 will likely see a fair bit of Decentralization anyways with nations getting full tile control (often with more than one tile) to spam out vassals with, I fail to see what is accomplished by being so harsh on independent places. In the past this was justified to increase server centralization and reduce the quantity of groups new players could join. Current system won’t see these groups cease to exist with nations having more abilities to harbor groups within them, so more centralization won’t be the result. Fear of the activity% is something the staff control, so 

 

I’ve heard some folks say that the world team wants to slowly get rid of independent communities and make everything by underneath nations. If that’s the case, their current minas system will do that fairly well. I apologize if I’ve appeared too be all doom

snd gloom about the fate of small communities under this system, for its moreso the doom and gloom of the independence of these communities rather than their existence itself. Sure, any small group wanting to be independent will face a bunch of issues with this system, but it’s likely that most groups will just suck it up and be a nation vassal eventually. Lairs exist and are free for groups that absolutely not able to get nation land, but other than that it’ll be 99% existing nations.

 

For the small price of annoying everyone with bank fines and making charters cost 20 times max bank value, thus effectively moving smaller communities within big ol’ nation tiles instead of having them be OOCly independent and in a similar location, the appearance of centralization within nations can be achieved when looking at the spreadsheets, an appearance that becomes more shaky when you notice that said nations can/have spread vassals across their multiple tiles and served as the mechanism for the Decentralization everybody yells at charters for doing. Net result is nations having more power and more activity numbers on the spreadsheets. Yay?

 

I’d much rather have smaller independent places not be heavily penalized and thus be able to compete with nations. If the only competition a nation faces are nations of completely different Roleplay styles/different races and vassals they set up themselves, nations don’t need to fear anything other than running out of minas or their core racial community/Roleplay niche ceasing to exist in large enough numbers. They have a monopoly on cheap land and tile improvements. There’s no longer the worry of a new charter taking away your playerbase due to your inactive leadership or whatever. That just won’t be anywhere near as likely.

 

I get why folks want small places to be under nations. Charters always get so much crud handed to them by staff, and nations kinda like having a bunch of vassals. Still, I’m not sure this system is ideal, and I’ll miss the old dynamicism of having new charters pop up and give existing nations a run for their money.

 

OK, rant over.

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10 minutes ago, camocat9 said:

Also, we had this discussion in the World Team discord a while ago, forcing some settlements to vassalize underneath nations makes the server far less fun for them. Especially in places like Talon's Grotto, which is a place where a lot of the population dislikes roleplay in larger nations, hence why they came to a settlement that is unaffiliated with them. Once more, this just forces people towards nations who don't want to be there in the first place. I believe systems in this server should be made about the fun of the playerbases they are made out of, and these changes make things a lot less fun for players who prefer to roleplay in smaller, more independent settlements.

 

And in active settlements like Talon's Grotto, activity is never a bother. We've been getting 3%-5% activity for the last couple of months in Talon's Grotto-- that's a large portion of the server who came there because they have no desire to roleplay under nations.


Its still something doable if you reach an arrangement with a nation about not having much in terms of a relationship. You can negoatiate that there is no need for your people to interact with the nation. And honestly I believe some nations will prefer allowing small charters in one of their empty tiles over having the tile completely empty. That is really up to you. People look for many problems but often don't think of the possible solutions. 

No one forces you to RP with a nation other than that initial negotiation for land. You'd also be free of an activity requirement which I know Talon's can sustain but it's still a relief when people go into finals or holidays or something is keeping people from joining IRL. 

You get access to some of the perks of the nation. And who knows maybe some new players join you for the exposure provided for being under that nation. 

 

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