[✗] [Lore Amendment] Atronach Limbs

[E__V__O 1984]

1 hour ago, chained man said:

Primarily, the reason why I did this is not to 'further take down some Voidal Lore' but to offer balance and identity onto the prosthetics. So far, Atronach Limbs have the best coordinatio, durability, are painless and can be enchanted. This is to further tie into the Mage 'niche' that has been carved out by Voidal Lore.

 

The disadvantages for the other limbs are as follows:

Animii

- Cannot replicate Hand-Eye coordination.

- Stiff

- Needs constant repair, and check-ups.

- Connected to the body itself, which grants pain.

 

Golem Limbs

- Unironically the worst(?) durability as the runes on the limb can be wacked.

- Golem Spikes

- You have to talk to a Dwarf.

 

Atronach

- None. The lore doesn't state any.

 

A weakness to Thanhic-Steel is universal for all limbs, save for Animii, so I won't be counting that for any of them here.

 

Personally, I hope the balance to Atronach Limbs will allow further writes to have more of a focus onto their aesthetics, and strength within the 'mage' niche.

 

Note: I really do hope Golemancy gets buffed.

 

I will get to the point of negatives over positives which you put in your reply, to further clarify that I do believe Atronach Limbs do need more clarification, specifically how they're made/attached to the body, refix of 'telekenetic limbs' as the magic no longer exists and overal greater look-in to what the limb can do.

 

Taking into the advantages of the limbs:

Animii

- Replacement limb.

- Made of [specified] material.

- Can feel pseudo-feelings.

- Strength of descendent.

- Can overlock to that of greater strength (Doesn't specify if orc strength or not).

 

Golem Limbs

- Replacement limb.

- Made of stone.

- Prone to brute force damage over piercing/slashing.

- Strength of descendent.

 

Atronach

- Replacement limb.

- Can do non-combat RP of evocation flavor.

- Strength of descendent.

 

----

 

To further clarify the disadvantages of the atronach limb are not present in the written lore however I would assume; 

 

Atronach Limb disvantage

- Prone to unexpected movement/reaction/control in the voidal hollow.

- Can be abjurated/Auric Oil to 'deconjure'/destroy the limb.

 

Due to this post being posted for Atronach limbs, i'll believe that clarification should be made on what the arms can / cannot do. Does an atronach limb of fire burn people on touch? Is the limb technically ethereal? 

 

 

A bigger discussion can be had on the strengths and weaknesses of the atronach limb which I do agree and the amendment could expand on. I don't believe however putting in a debuff/weakness without a compensation of advantage be it minor such as turning the limb 'off' so it doesn't need to be removed to not suffer from the voidal weakness proposal you suggested here.

 

Edit: If you prefer we continue the discussion elsewhere, my forum PM's or discord.

[ronin_champloo 5951]

2 minutes ago, Jenny_Bobbs said:

snip

 

Apologies, but you've seem to have some of the advantages wrong. Allow me to amend them for you.

 

Taking into the advantages of the limbs:

Animii

- Replacement limb.

- Made of [specified] material. (Metal, but there's veins, etc, that allow it to work with the descendant's blood. If someone slashed at an Animii Limb with a sword, it'd still grant pain, and it'd still damage it to the point where repairs are needed.)

- Can feel pseudo-feelings.

- Strength of descendent.

- Can overlock to that of greater strength (Doesn't specify if orc strength or not). (This brutally damages the limb beyond repair, and damages your body as well as body are not able to handle that kind of strength.)

 

Golem Limbs

- Replacement limb.

- Made of stone. (This has been in discussions in the ST Chat for a while, but bashing or using your Golem Limb as a weapon damages the runes on it, effectively breaking and making it inert.)

- Prone to brute force damage over piercing/slashing. (Once again, a blade can effectively damage a Golem Limb as long as they target the rune on it. Keep in mind that it is also fairly heavy.)

- Strength of descendent. 

 

Atronach

- Replacement limb.

- Can do non-combat RP of evocation flavor. (But can be enchanted for a myriad of effects.)

- Strength of descendent. (Except for Telekinetic Limbs which can be as strong as Orcs for a duration of time, and it doesn't have the detriments to it as Animii Over-Locking.)

 

____

 

To further clarify the disadvantages of the atronach limb are not present in the written lore however I would assume; 

 

Atronach Limb disvantages

- Prone to unexpected movement/reaction/control in the voidal hollow. 

- Can be abjurated/Auric Oil to 'deconjure'/destroy the limb.

 

(Auric Oil can only damage things that are T3 -- or below -- in nature. Reading over Atronach Lore, it states that Atronachs bear the strength of T5 mages, save for Ice Atronachs. Applying this knowledge, one can assume that limbs are T5 in nature, as they also require mastery in a Voidal Magick (The Evocation, Transfig, and Atronach Forging) to create, meaning that Atronachs Limbs cannot be damaged by Auric Oil.)

 

See Below:

- Auric Oil affects all mana-based spells and creatures (therefore, paladin magic, druid magic, house magic, etc) that are T3 or below.

 

• An ice atronach has around the strength and constitution of an adept mage (T3). Their core can sustain four hits before they are incapacitated. 
• Fire Atronachs have the strength and constitution of a master mage (T5). This means that they are exceedingly fragile, requiring only three hard hits to their core in order to render them incapacitated.
• Water atronachs have the strength and constitution of a master mage (T5). Their core can sustain three hits before they are incapacitated. 
• Requires [x] evocation, transfiguration, and atronach forging to create, and requires a valid MA to play as well as a valid creator.

I've had some thoughts about the turning off, and turning on idea you've said but I don't think it'd make sense as the limb is continuously working off the person's mana to survive and work. I don't think there'll be a plausible IRP reasoning for it.

[E__V__O 1984]

 

1 minute ago, chained man said:

-snip-

 

Thank you for clarifying, I don't have much experience in the lores above and was taking it off a basis from what I initially read. It seems some things need to be added to lore if not specified significantly already (Golem limbs for example, animii limbs are all good- except for level of strength gathered).

 

Focusing on the atronach limbs, we're in agreement that it would have to be specified, I put the Auric oil in the lore due to "Elemental Affinity" being of level of T3 and below, and depending how the limb is made, if it is an enchantment (due to transfiguration needed), auric oil would destroy it/make it null.

Quote

-Enchantments that use Mana based spells would be NULLED and ILLEGIBLE FOR USE FOR THE REST OF COMBAT if effected by Auric Oil as these are mana based objects.

 

For the clarification on other points so it isn't a back and forth, i'll take the discussion to discord to help gain further clarity.

[ronin_champloo 5951]

4 minutes ago, Jenny_Bobbs said:

Focusing on the atronach limbs, we're in agreement that it would have to be specified, I put the Auric oil in the lore due to "Elemental Affinity" being of level of T3 and below, and depending how the limb is made, if it is an enchantment (due to transfiguration needed), auric oil would destroy it/make it null.

 

Personally, I don't believe Atronachs are Enchants, rather they are something that is forged. Even then, the main that that powers an Atronach is their Core -- something that isn't present in Prosthetic Limbs as the 'Core' would be the descendant themselves. As seen in the magic explanation, it doesn't mention enchanting at all, hence my explanation prior.

 

Atronach forging is the art of creating elemental construct and bestowing upon them sentience. While primordial conjuration is no longer possible within the modern day, the art of binding an element to a sentient core. This allows for atronach forgers to create sentient, long-term elemental constructs that do not actively rely upon the mana pool of the caster.

 

Furthermore, I'd prefer if we keep our discussion here on the forums as I like being transparent with others, and the community at hand.

[SoulReapingWolf 2258]

While I agree there need to be some downsides to atronach limbs I believe this new redline would contradict a bit some of the attributes of certain atronach limbs. (Telekinetic ones if I recall correctly are focused on providing strenght to their user so going from being as strong as an orc / olog to not being able to wield a two handed weapon)

2 hours ago, Jenny_Bobbs said:

Golem Limbs

- Replacement limb.

- Made of stone.

- Prone to brute force damage over piercing/slashing.

- Strength of descendent.

I would also say that Golem limbs should not be used to compare as suitable options for prosthetic limbs. There is no real advantage to them. A scratch to their sigil renders them useless, they weight as much as stone, once damaged you need to either make the new golem limb start from a higher position in the limb or find a new type of limb. Same strenght as a descendant.

[Luxury 603]

I believe, and have always felt, that not everything Voidal must cause Voidal Taint. As a community we should be trying to take steps to correct this notion, as it is a line of thinking that we've slipped into fairly recently. At least within the last two years. It didn't happen overnight, it happened through pieces like this.

I feel that Voidal Taint should come from excess use, not common-ordinary-every day use. The more we absently tag on this type of rhetoric, the more we move this originally and intended 'Neutral Magic' into another Dark Magic.

[AndrewTech 2815]

Breaking my typical radio silence to say... Please don't do this.

 

Speaking as a former LT who handled a lot of atronach and voidal lore for over an IRL year, this would basically render atronach limbs all but obsolete in practicality. Most of the people who seek them out are martial combatants who wouldn't use them under any circumstances if they incurred some form of voidal poisoning. I legitimately don't think that anyone, outside of the occasional mage, would use one in game if these redlines were adopted.

 

Additionally, there is absolutely no reason that an atronach limb should poison an individual lore wise. The core which powers it is basically just an enchanted battery, operating off of the same principles as any other enchanted device would external to a person's biology.

 

Keeping an enchantment on your person for an extended amount of time doesn't incur voidal poisoning, so why should an atronach limb? And even if you don't subscribe to the idea that atronach forging is an offshoot of alteration, atronach limbs operate entirely outside of the body, merely with proximity connection. They are indeed separate constructs, standing apart from a person's internal biology. So why should they afflict an individual with voidal poisoning?

 

I'm sorry, but this proposed amendment just doesn't make any sense in my own humble opinion. If you're going to give atronach limbs a weakness, I think it should be something else that won't basically relegate the most useful and used aspect of atronach forging into IG obscurity.

[ronin_champloo 5951]

51 minutes ago, AndrewTech said:

snip

 

If people seek out [x] just because they want to be stronger in combat, then that's the fault of the playerbase rather than the lore -- something that needs to be addressed. People shouldn't be participating in lore just because they want to be more powerful, but rather to add to the overarching RP environment as everyone else. Most instances of Atronach Limbs that I've seen are Telekinetic Limbs; people wanting to gain Orc-Like Strength, or Limbs laden with enchantments just to win CRP which is a gross mindset.

As for the core part, as the lore states;

- Such extensions are recharged like any regular enchantment. 

- While a typical atronach requires conjuration in order to grant them sentience from their core, atronach limbs are not so. As the wearer of an atronach limb already has sentience and animation, only the evocation of choice and transfiguration are required to make a limb in a freeform process.

 

While the lore is rather vague, it talks about the absence of a core. The Limbs recharge from the Mana of the wielder, and they are operated like that. Like I've said before, this makes sense IRPly as the Void saps strength from the user -- etc, see Voidal Hollows. They ruin and plague life. 

 

I didn't full-on grant the complete voidal weakness onto a user, but rather a weaker variant of it; barring them from using two-handed weaponry such as Polearms, or Greatswords, and from wearing Full-Plate. They can still wear Half-Plate and Gambeson.

 

58 minutes ago, AndrewTech said:

Keeping an enchantment on your person for an extended amount of time doesn't incur voidal poisoning, so why should an atronach limb? And even if you don't subscribe to the idea that atronach forging is an offshoot of alteration, atronach limbs operate entirely outside of the body, merely with proximity connection. They are indeed separate constructs, standing apart from a person's internal biology. So why should they afflict an individual with voidal poisoning?

 

As for this part, I'm genuinely confused why people keep bringing it up. An enchant is INERT until its activated, otherwise it's a mundane tool or weapon. An Atronach Limb is ALWAYS ACTIVE as the wielder is using it to operate.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

1 hour ago, Luxury said:

I feel that Voidal Taint should come from excess use, not common-ordinary-every day use. The more we absently tag on this type of rhetoric, the more we move this originally and intended 'Neutral Magic' into another Dark Magic.

 

This is a take that I can agree with, actually.

[megavoltar 1110]

Ur arms are poison

 

CUT OFF YOUR LIMBS CUT OFF YOUR LIMBS

[AndrewTech 2815]

 

2 hours ago, chained man said:

As for this part, I'm genuinely confused why people keep bringing it up. An enchant is INERT until its activated, otherwise it's a mundane tool or weapon. An Atronach Limb is ALWAYS ACTIVE as the wielder is using it to operate.

 

I apologize for not reading up on the previous comments regarding such before posting. The thing is that even an inert enchantment passively draws upon the user's mana to recharge though. The lore explicitly states that this is harmless enough, as it basically just uses aura exhaust to power its functions. Passive mana isn't sapped, it's collected.

 

2 hours ago, chained man said:

While the lore is rather vague, it talks about the absence of a core. The Limbs recharge from the Mana of the wielder, and they are operated like that. Like I've said before, this makes sense IRPly as the Void saps strength from the user -- etc, see Voidal Hollows. They ruin and plague life. 

 

Atronach limbs should ideally require a core of some sort, though these are usually far smaller than the sizable ones which power a full atronach. The lore does say that they function differently, but they still need to be present to work as an interface between the user and the. The exact wording is:

"While a typical atronach requires conjuration in order to grant them sentience from their core, atronach limbs are not so. As the wearer of an atronach limb already has sentience and animation, only the evocation of choice and transfiguration are required to make a limb in a freeform process. This process cannot be done in combat, even with the necessary materials on hand. "

 

I think what Pun was getting at here when we wrote this was that cores within atronach limbs should require less of an imbuement than standard atronach ones. Every single atronach forger I've ever witnessed, at least in my circles, utilizes these in the creation of theirs. Regardless, I suppose that I could see this line of thinking, though I think this should be clarified as this is indeed very vague and should still be core oriented as that's what the entirety of atronach forging revolves around.

 

2 hours ago, chained man said:

I didn't full-on grant the complete voidal weakness onto a user, but rather a weaker variant of it; barring them from using two-handed weaponry such as Polearms, or Greatswords, and from wearing Full-Plate. They can still wear Half-Plate and Gambeson.

 

This is basically still just standard voidal poisoning though in all honesty, minus the allowance for Half-Plate. The effects of full voidal poisoning are honestly greatly overexaggerated by most. Even a fully poisoned mage can wield a one-handed weapon and wear gambeson, as specified in the voidal connection lore.

 

 

"Mages who practice magic for one or more OOC months cannot wear full plate effectively, and at best are limited to half-plate or some light gambeson. Anything more than this would render the mage unable to cast and incredibly exhausted after just a short time of wearing it. Though a mage could wear full plate prior to this point, their ability to do so would slowly degrade, exhausting more over time. Once a mage has reached about three OOC months of casting would find themselves unable to cast in anything heavier than gambeson, struggling to connect and maintain their breath in heavy plate."

 

Thus, I honestly don't see how your suggestion wouldn't be the equivalent of full voidal poisoning. Wearing more quickly while using two-handed weaponry at the intermediate category might be fairer than total exclusion, which is more or less a T4-T5 thing.

 

2 hours ago, chained man said:

If people seek out [x] just because they want to be stronger in combat, then that's the fault of the playerbase rather than the lore -- something that needs to be addressed. People shouldn't be participating in lore just because they want to be more powerful, but rather to add to the overarching RP environment as everyone else. Most instances of Atronach Limbs that I've seen are Telekinetic Limbs; people wanting to gain Orc-Like Strength, or Limbs laden with enchantments just to win CRP which is a gross mindset.

 

I fully agree with this, and I think it's ridiculous that the lore is being abused in this manner. In my experience though, a lot of the people I've interacted with out of high magic circles only utilize elemental ones without enchantments. I really think it's unfair to them to suddenly turn things upside down on the average joe that's using these limbs correctly.

 

I think the root of the problem here is the existence of telekinetic limbs, which I think were a grave mistake to reintroduce to the server. These limbs had been eliminated but recently returned with the reintroduction of a rudimentary variant of it to transfiguration.

 

They are the only variety of atronach limb that allow for this sort of thing, and I honestly think that they are also heavily overpowered. I think it would be more constructive to add voidal poisoning drawbacks to telekenetic limbs only, which makes more sense due to their particularly voidal focus and could be done in exchange for the extra temporary strength that comes along with them.

 

Better yet, I would support the total elimination of telekinetic limbs, which are sadly game breaking and have been abused by many bad actors. Either that or making telekinetic limbs exclusive to voidal poisoning drawbacks while allowing elemental limbs to retain normal descendant strength might be ideal.

 

 

I'd also like to add that I appreciate that you're trying to fix the problem at hand, and that I totally get it. I'm just trying to offer some constructive criticism here as this is an area of lore I'm very passionate about and have worked a lot around. Hope my tone doesn't sound otherwise.

[Zacho 1737]

much like seer, it shouldnt be a perfect replacement to avoid consequence, atro does exactly that without downside and more upsides. also it functions off a defunct magic?? (telek)

[SaviourMeme 694]

2 hours ago, Zacho said:

much like seer, it shouldnt be a perfect replacement to avoid consequence, atro does exactly that without downside and more upsides. also it functions off a defunct magic?? (telek)

Telekinesis still exists with transfiguration

[xMuted 2460]

13 hours ago, chained man said:

 

- You have to talk to a Dwarf.

 

Talking with a dwarf, massive buff to golem limbs.

 

Also i agree that atro limbs are too busted

[milksoda 719]

As an atronach player I like this to be honest. There shouldn't be a reason that atronach limbs are the optimal limb to get. They needed an opportunity cost.

[Reckless Banzai Screamer 11594]

17 hours ago, High_On_Math said:

Plenty of characters with atronach arms would not have gotten one of it was going to make them weaker. Mine would have tried golem arms or something. If this is accepted, I can imagine some characters getting rid of their atronach limbs that they paid a lot of minas for

 

folks should stop asking for needless amputations and paying high prices for magical or alchemical prosthetics