[✗] [Amendment] Tenets, Cabals, & Schemes

[Pallodium 3775]

In the case of this amendment’s acceptance, the following will occur:

Spoiler

♢ The changes to the tenets and core mechanics are to be explained via Vaasek altering the nature of his Kabalees- which will result in a Prophecy post solely visible to seers washing over them. This prophecy post will not explicitly state anything, as to not reveal Vaasek’s involvement whatsoever by any means.

 

Sᴇᴇʀ Aᴍᴇɴᴅᴍᴇɴᴛ

Tᴇɴᴇᴛꜱ, Cᴀʙᴀʟꜱ, & Sᴄʜᴇᴍᴇꜱ

✦•━•⊰✦⊱•━•✦

 

ᴜɴᴅᴇʀ ‘ [✓] [ꜰᴇᴀᴛ + ᴍᴀɢɪᴄ ʟᴏʀᴇ] ꜱᴇᴇʀꜱ - ᴄᴏᴢᴇɴᴇʀꜱ ᴏꜰ ᴠᴀᴀꜱᴇᴋ’, ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ꜰᴏʟʟᴏᴡɪɴɢ:

Spoiler

TENETS

Vaasek’s spies are everywhere and he gives little stock in what individuals he has leashed as he inherently distrusts mortals and as such his tenets are universal, known to all seers via dreams they interpret, and punishable by harsh abandonment. They are:

  Hide contents

A seer cannot kill or harm another seer unless permitted by the victim.

 

In exception, seers may engage in duels where they formally engage in one on one combat which necessitate both parties being aware of and consenting to the initiation. It does not end until a victor is mutually agreed upon or one party is killed. Additionally, seers are not responsible for the groups they engage with and a seer is not liable if, for example, they divine a weakness of frost witches and another seer who is a frost witch is killed utilizing said weakness by a party informed by the diviner. The seer would only be liable if they ordered that specific frost witch seer killed and/or fed the killers information on how to exactly locate or identify that seer. The fidelity and recognition sections below elaborate on how seers in pseudo-conflict might collaborate to mitigate the situation to their mutual benefit.

 

Seers cannot snitch on one another by revealing the identities of seers to non-seers or revealing their schemes (such as ongoing conspiracies and cabal activities) to non-seers outside their cabal.

 

Seers live in lies and cannot unravel those webs. When seers cooperate and execute plots they inherently build up circles of conspirators called cabals usually of other seers but not always. In such cabals seers must use layered language and maintain layers of lies to not give away the ultimate secret - that seers exist. They use the terms, names, and excuses of other seers when referring to them and do not reveal their plans, always translating those ultimate goals into the perspective of their conspirators to maintain degrees of separation from the coveted truth. Seers always support the lies of their peers and speak of them accordingly. The connection between seers, when noticed, is excused using the context between them. Should someone connect the dots and draw throughlines between seemingly unrelated parties such as mutual use of asper-like devices between a Canonist sect and sea witches the seer cannot give credence to the thought and must deny, obscure, or excuse it. 

 

Seers cannot reveal themselves as seers or the exact inner workings of their magic to non-seers.

 

All bonded seer magic must be contextualized and excused by the user; they pose as some sort of magic user to explain what they do - see the past, read fortunes, receive visions, float, enter invisibility, etc. - and never give up this lie. A seer cannot tell a non-seer they are anything other than what they pretend: a seer who takes the guise of a Voidal soothsayer is exactly that and may twist or reinvent that lie but cannot undo it. Similar to the second tenet, seers cannot give themselves up just as they cannot give each other up. Lastly, a seer may move on to a new guise so long as they assume a new identity (such as through the Ritual of Identity).
 

 

By breaking any of these tenets Vaasek will immediately abandon the seer who then loses their magic and feat permanently as well as the number of dedicated slots. The detachment of the witness removes the seer’s memories of their associates and activities with it. Disconnected seers struggle to interpret this loss of time and feel a sense of shame around their amnesia and who they were during that time, often choosing to run from their past but the exact interpretation is up to the player.

 

Because of the absolute quality of witnesses’ divine invisibility not even the gods can detect them allowing seers to infiltrate other deific groups which then becomes their guise. A druid seer takes on the presentation and associations of the druids but at heart remains an agent of Vaasek and operates under his influence. In these cross-deity situations the seer must carefully dance to abide by their seer tenets while also obeying the tenets of their secondary deity and under no circumstance can they be disconnected on the grounds of being a seer alone, it must be caused by their behavior. While at times difficult and requiring the seer to choose inaction to avoid breaking the tenets they will always be inclined to break their oath to their secondary god over Vaasek (elaborated on below).

✦•━•⊰✦⊱•━•✦
 

ʀᴇᴘʟᴀᴄᴇ ɪᴛ ᴡɪᴛʜ:

T E N E T S

Upon becoming a Bonded Seer, two critical definitions are placed within the Seer’s mind- mechanisms instilled by Vaasek in order to ensure that his outlets of information, subterfuge, and chaos do not get utterly enraptured in mental conflicts of greed and bias. They are as follows, built alongside the Cardinal Tenets:

 

「 CABALS 」   The definition of a Cabal is a group of Bonded Seers all linked to the same Consecrated Altar. Members of a Cabal are capable of recognizing each other upon sight, and are mutually bound under an inability to harm or kill fellow members of their Cabal. Cabals are helmed by the [3] Bonded Seers which created the respective Altar- in unanimous consensus, they may expel anyone bound to their Altar for breaking cultural tenets; Cabals may create these cultural tenets to be followed  in order to exalt their schemes.

「 SCHEMES 」   The definition of a Scheme is a collective goal that a Cabal or a portion of its members strive towards as a whole. Though a Scheme does not need to be pursued by every member of a Cabal, it must be a goal that is acknowledged by the Cabal. Schemes are the overall goals of seers- they are what they try to do within their own actions and through the assistance of their peers and kith, in order to actively exalt what changes they wish to bring to the world. They may utilize whatever means they deem fit to reach such goals.

 

Tʜᴇ Cᴀʀᴅɪɴᴀʟ Tᴇɴᴇᴛꜱ:

 

☲ One cannot reveal their nature or the inner workings of their magic to the unbonded.

 

» Vaasek has but one core tenet; the nature of the magic, no matter what, cannot be revealed to anyone who is not a Bonded Seer. Neither, can anything about Seer be spoken to any other being. Seers exist within layers of deception, unable to unravel their own webs of lies. When they conspire, they form cabals- circles of conspirators- where secrecy is paramount.

 

» Within these groups, seers speak in coded language, masking their true intentions and ensuring their ultimate secret remains hidden. They use the names, titles, and excuses of others, never directly revealing their plans but instead translating their goals into terms their allies can understand. Seers always uphold one another’s deceptions, and any observed connections between them must be denied, obscured, or rationalized to prevent outsiders from uncovering the truth.

 

☲ One cannot harm or kill another member of their Cabal, unless permitted by the victim.

☲ One cannot reveal the identities or schemes of members within other Cabals to anyone.

 

» Vaasek has two secondary tenets; the first is that seers are incapable of killing nor harming another Seer within their Cabal unless permitted by the victim. This is to simply say, there is nothing preventing a Bonded Seer from harming another Bonded Seer within another Cabal or a Cabal-less seer, for Vaasek merely bars conflict within a Cabal’s members. The latter one prevents information pertaining schemes and identities of other bonded from being revealed to unbonded individuals- hence, acting as a veilward to prevent information leaks in bad faith.

 

» In terms of physical ‘conflict’ between those of a Cabal, they may engage in formal duels- requiring both parties' awareness and consent- with combat ending only upon mutual agreement or the death of one participant. Additionally, Bonded Seers are not responsible for the actions of those they associate with; for example, if a seer reveals a general weakness of corcitura and another seer within their Cabal who is a corcitura is later slain using that knowledge, the informing seer bears no liability. They are only culpable if they directly ordered the Bonded Seer’s death or provided exact details for their identification or location.

 

The Cardinal Tenets are the only ones which Vaasek upkeeps- the cultural tenets which a group creates are not monitored nor overseen by him, and he shalln’t interject. By breaking either of these Cardinal Tenets, Vaasek will give but one warning. He will bar the action from occurring, be it spoken or direct harm, and temporarily rob the seer of their sight and abilities for [1] OOC week. 

 

However, if a second violation is ever to occur, he immediately abandons the seer, who then loses their magic and feat permanently- as well as the number of dedicated slots. The detachment of the witness removes the Seer’s memories of their associates and activities with it. Disconnected seers struggle to interpret this loss of time and feel a sense of shame around their amnesia and who they were during that time, often choosing to run from their past but the exact interpretation is up to the player.

 

REDLINES:

Spoiler

⬢ Utterly no forms or attempts towards forced or non-forced romantic roleplay can be derived from anything within Seer magic, regardless of OOC consent. To do so warrants an instant and irrevocable blacklist.

⬢ Absolutely no one understands or knows of Vaasek’s intervention in becoming a seer and to use his name or lore or the name or lore of kabalees in-character is explicit metagaming. The dream will not reveal any of this other than the possible influence of crows and the bonded witness does not and cannot speak or otherwise be communicated with. Similarly, the term seer is an OOC construct made for this lore and absolutely no one understands or knows of it as a term for users of this blurred magic and to use it as a term as it is in this lore instead of its dictionary definition is explicit metagaming.

⬢ An individual can cease to be a Seer if they break a Cardinal Tenet twice. When this happens the individual can never be a seer again, as Vaasek sees their rejection of his gift as blasphemous, an insult he doesn’t forgive. Unlike feat seers, bonded seers whose eyes are restored do not permanently lose the magic but instead it is made inaccessible until they are once again blinded. This restoration cannot be forced and the seer player may choose OOCly for the act to magically fail and the seer’s vision is not restored. Seers can only gain casting tells from one altar but can connect to more than two; all seers bound to an Altar are considered to be under the same Cabal.

⬢ Upon a Seer revealing secretly bound information they are immediately halted midway through their speech as their mind draws a blank, leading to a temporary [1] OOC week-long loss of magic. (Recorded on MA). If done again, the disconnection happens instantly as the first sentence is spoken. The “halting midway through their speech” occurs as means to explain ST-altered roleplay results as it is likely to be retconned in by ST who investigate and deem the roleplay tenet-breaking.

✦•━•⊰✦⊱•━•✦
 

ᴘᴜʀᴘᴏꜱᴇ:

Seers have been in a state of being where the tenets are poorly reflective of the modern-day state of the game, where seers are vast and not drawn-thin. The above rework of tenets, alongside the introduction of Cabals and Schemes was part of my denied Seer Reformat, with the ideas drawn from those of Benleft and Zarsies. The state of the current seer lore is convoluted; much of the community finds fault within multiple portions of it- many of which are centric around the very tenets and its nature. As such, this still is in line with what the community wanted to see, and hopefully fixes most of the issues they had with it + creates what they wanted to see. As always, feel free to give feedback in-length here, especially from those of the seer community!

 

[lemonke 6014]

This is not going to do much of a fix due to altar system work. I mean, sure, you'll be able to kill another seer but that isn't going to achieve much or prevent bad faith. I would also specify somewhere, since the wording seems a bit vague that you cannot share seer's secrets to others. But we'll see!!

[Cheese 8883]

can't wait for the seer war

[Lockages 548]

7 hours ago, Pallodium said:

Seers have been in a state of being where the tenets are poorly reflective of the modern-day state of the game, where seers are vast and not drawn-thin. The above rework of tenets, alongside the introduction of Cabals and Schemes was part of my denied Seer Reformat, with the ideas drawn from those of Benleft and Zarsies. The state of the current seer lore is convoluted; much of the community finds fault within multiple portions of it- many of which are centric around the very tenets and its nature.

Love you for this, not going to bother scanning too many replies because the tenet systems have been very misunderstood by the seers, and I think this fixes most of the main issues.

 

not the first time I’ve seen either people come to me, or come to others about “Tenet breaking behavior.” When there’s often nothing that directly protects against seer conflict. (Beyond plots being outed of course.)

 

my view is that if you as a seer cannot naturally defend your plot from other seers, you don’t deserve the magic. I’m tired of seeing people cry wolf due to thinking the magic by default prevents them from being messed with.

 

I think the only thing necessary to imply, which I believe you did (Correct me if I am wrong), was to prevent a Seer from being able to release any info at all about Seers as a whole to non-seers. 

7 hours ago, Pallodium said:

Vaasek has but one core tenet; the nature of the magic, no matter what, cannot be revealed to anyone who is not a Bonded Seer. Neither, can anything about Seer be spoken to any other being. Seers exist within layers of deception, unable to unravel their own webs of lies. When they conspire, they form cabals- circles of conspirators- where secrecy is paramount.

 

» Within these groups, seers speak in coded language, masking their true intentions and ensuring their ultimate secret remains hidden. They use the names, titles, and excuses of others, never directly revealing their plans but instead translating their goals into terms their allies can understand. Seers always uphold one another’s deceptions, and any observed connections between them must be denied, obscured, or rationalized to prevent outsiders from uncovering the truth

I believe this covers it well enough, just wanted to make sure I shared the importance of it. Allowing people to get other groups involved would spark bad faith, but I think allowing the seers to do Spy V Spy conflict against each other would help a lot with the core issue of the magic. We have too many people, and too many clashing ideals; Doing one thing that a few people disagree with has in a lot of cases caused a public outcry, which was often immediately solved when it was explained no tenets were broken.

 

And this being a LORE thing, where Vaseek basically goes “Yeah my blind fucks are too stupid and incompetent, I’ll let them weed each other out.”

is something I think he would be very prone to doing.

 

BEGIN THE SEER WAR. BLIND V BLIND. RAHHHH

 

P.S.

sorry for not helping you write this, I’m lazy. but it’s better than what I imagined. pallodium for president 2028.

[Venomous_Pup 2978]

7 hours ago, lemonke said:

This is not going to do much of a fix due to altar system work. I mean, sure, you'll be able to kill another seer but that isn't going to achieve much or prevent bad faith. I would also specify somewhere, since the wording seems a bit vague that you cannot share seer's secrets to others. But we'll see!!

If this amendment was some brought up back in the early 2020s, I'd 100% agree, when the magic had a limited player base, it was entirely inconsequential if Seers didn't get a long and at that point it made IRP sense that Vaasek wouldn't want you to chase after Seers when there was so little of them that it would be a waste of time working on legitimate plots that would promote RP rather than trying to 'cleanse' the community of one entire person. However, sometimes I think between 2022 and 2023 the Seer population has utterly exploded to the point where you can throw a stone in any community and you're likely to hit a Seer, as this is an RP server, the way the current tenants are do not 'scale' well with modern LotC and the amount of Seers around. As a result, OOCly, this causes a lot of friction if people understand the tenants differently from one another, ie Seers cannot interfere with one another's plots when it is written as we can not reveal ongoing activities or conspiracies, what this should mean from an IRP stand point Seer A wants to protect a King, whereas Seer B wants to kill them. If Seer A finds out this and that Seer B was behind the plot, they couldn't just reveal that there was a plot against them, and they should work to make a counter-plot, which could mean they hire more guards, spreading false information about the King's movements, or commit a faux assassination attempt to keep everyone high on alert. And an issue that has come up somewhat in rare, infrequent cases is attempting to stretch the tenants of no harm/killing other Seers into threatening disconnects over "emotional" harm, which is a bad faith attempt for the specific individuals to protect the people they care about from getting harmed or otherwise force Seers to remain passive over fear of disconnect and utterly stifles any interesting RP and directly goes against what is written in the lore of Seers. 

IRPly as a result of how many Seers they are, which aren't grouped into any defined cabals (outside a few exceptions), it makes it difficult to act when plots or activities, without any intention, can come into conflict with one another, especially in the few exceptions, they are well established and puts them in a difficult position of conflict. Vaasek holds no real investment in the individual Seer's longevity; you are a tool for him to use, and with what was mentioned in old lore, if needed, he could 'summon' back old Seers from the dead. All this for one singular purpose of distraction, to keep the Descendants fighting among themselves to ensure his safety. If Seers are unable to act against other Nations because the danger of possibly endangering a Seer puts them at risk of losing their magic, they become passive. When they are passive, they are not causing the distraction that Vaasek wants to be stirred among the Descendants. Vaasek should not prevent plots or Seer activities from going through when they do come into conflict by any means. If a new Seer comes along and can amass great influence at the cost of another Seer's position, why would he intervene? The new Seer has simply 'replaced' the old one; his influence would remain the same, and either the old Seer has to adapt or move on. If your plot or scheme's only hope for survival is that it relies on Vaasek to protect it rather than your ability, it deserves to fail and be supplanted by the new plot/scheme.

Regarding preventing bad faith, there have already been plenty of cases of bad faith interpretations of the current tenants, and no matter which magic, no matter how well you try your best, there are always going to be cases of bad faith. When it comes to this format, thankfully, we can adjust the writing to do our best to prevent further instances of bad faith roleplay rather than throwing our hands up. While these are small changes, they are needed and can fuel better changes down the line than trying to push through everything at once; in this regard, altering the tenants to benefit Seers to work together, and preventing actions by Seers from being stopped due to possibly harming Seers who are entirely unaffiliated are desperately needed and I like how it encourages Seers to legitimately group up rather than being solo and something that should be expanded up in the future.

Only changes I would suggest to this amendment are to alter the Seers' ability of being able to recognise other Seers to be optional in the case of non-cabal Seers, and possibly adjusting how Seer Altars work in terms of limits, be it that Seers can only gain casting tells from one altar but can connect to more than two. 

 

[Karina 1883]

3 hours ago, Lockages said:

Love you for this, not going to bother scanning too many replies because the tenet systems have been very misunderstood by the seers, and I think this fixes most of the main issues.

 

not the first time I’ve seen either people come to me, or come to others about “Tenet breaking behavior.” When there’s often nothing that directly protects against seer conflict. (Beyond plots being outed of course.)

 

my view is that if you as a seer cannot naturally defend your plot from other seers, you don’t deserve the magic. I’m tired of seeing people cry wolf due to thinking the magic by default prevents them from being messed with.

 

I think the only thing necessary to imply, which I believe you did (Correct me if I am wrong), was to prevent a Seer from being able to release any info at all about Seers as a whole to non-seers. 

I believe this covers it well enough, just wanted to make sure I shared the importance of it. Allowing people to get other groups involved would spark bad faith, but I think allowing the seers to do Spy V Spy conflict against each other would help a lot with the core issue of the magic. We have too many people, and too many clashing ideals; Doing one thing that a few people disagree with has in a lot of cases caused a public outcry, which was often immediately solved when it was explained no tenets were broken.

 

And this being a LORE thing, where Vaseek basically goes “Yeah my blind fucks are too stupid and incompetent, I’ll let them weed each other out.”

is something I think he would be very prone to doing.

 

BEGIN THE SEER WAR. BLIND V BLIND. RAHHHH

 

P.S.

sorry for not helping you write this, I’m lazy. but it’s better than what I imagined. pallodium for president 2028.

just seconding this completely 

[Onnensr 1908]

I've always thought playing a Seer would be the inevitable outcome for my character, at least when I started playing him. Seer fills a significant niche left entirely on its own until Tarotmancy came around, leashed to the ground by its over-reliance on a communal aspect. There's an endless number of reasons why Seers should be allowed to be in direct conflict with one another. I've heard a handful of times, "Oh you can just ignore that redline about conflict if you roleplay gaslighting your character enough", but I've always thought that flimsy at best, not something to stake entire soul slots on when the player is taking all the risk if that'd even get past an ST, not to mention if they actually enjoy the Seer community. Not to bash them at all, that's really not my intention, but I've heard many complain about it as a whole, and it's been listed as the source of many players ultimately abandoning their Seer persona. 

+1

[lemonke 6014]

2 hours ago, Venomous_Pup said:

If this amendment was some brought up back in the early 2020s, I'd 100% agree, when the magic had a limited player base, it was entirely inconsequential if Seers didn't get a long and at that point it made IRP sense that Vaasek wouldn't want you to chase after Seers when there was so little of them that it would be a waste of time working on legitimate plots that would promote RP rather than trying to 'cleanse' the community of one entire person. However, sometimes I think between 2022 and 2023 the Seer population has utterly exploded to the point where you can throw a stone in any community and you're likely to hit a Seer, as this is an RP server, the way the current tenants are do not 'scale' well with modern LotC and the amount of Seers around. As a result, OOCly, this causes a lot of friction if people understand the tenants differently from one another, ie Seers cannot interfere with one another's plots when it is written as we can not reveal ongoing activities or conspiracies, what this should mean from an IRP stand point Seer A wants to protect a King, whereas Seer B wants to kill them. If Seer A finds out this and that Seer B was behind the plot, they couldn't just reveal that there was a plot against them, and they should work to make a counter-plot, which could mean they hire more guards, spreading false information about the King's movements, or commit a faux assassination attempt to keep everyone high on alert. And an issue that has come up somewhat in rare, infrequent cases is attempting to stretch the tenants of no harm/killing other Seers into threatening disconnects over "emotional" harm, which is a bad faith attempt for the specific individuals to protect the people they care about from getting harmed or otherwise force Seers to remain passive over fear of disconnect and utterly stifles any interesting RP and directly goes against what is written in the lore of Seers. 

IRPly as a result of how many Seers they are, which aren't grouped into any defined cabals (outside a few exceptions), it makes it difficult to act when plots or activities, without any intention, can come into conflict with one another, especially in the few exceptions, they are well established and puts them in a difficult position of conflict. Vaasek holds no real investment in the individual Seer's longevity; you are a tool for him to use, and with what was mentioned in old lore, if needed, he could 'summon' back old Seers from the dead. All this for one singular purpose of distraction, to keep the Descendants fighting among themselves to ensure his safety. If Seers are unable to act against other Nations because the danger of possibly endangering a Seer puts them at risk of losing their magic, they become passive. When they are passive, they are not causing the distraction that Vaasek wants to be stirred among the Descendants. Vaasek should not prevent plots or Seer activities from going through when they do come into conflict by any means. If a new Seer comes along and can amass great influence at the cost of another Seer's position, why would he intervene? The new Seer has simply 'replaced' the old one; his influence would remain the same, and either the old Seer has to adapt or move on. If your plot or scheme's only hope for survival is that it relies on Vaasek to protect it rather than your ability, it deserves to fail and be supplanted by the new plot/scheme.

Regarding preventing bad faith, there have already been plenty of cases of bad faith interpretations of the current tenants, and no matter which magic, no matter how well you try your best, there are always going to be cases of bad faith. When it comes to this format, thankfully, we can adjust the writing to do our best to prevent further instances of bad faith roleplay rather than throwing our hands up. While these are small changes, they are needed and can fuel better changes down the line than trying to push through everything at once; in this regard, altering the tenants to benefit Seers to work together, and preventing actions by Seers from being stopped due to possibly harming Seers who are entirely unaffiliated are desperately needed and I like how it encourages Seers to legitimately group up rather than being solo and something that should be expanded up in the future.

Only changes I would suggest to this amendment are to alter the Seers' ability of being able to recognise other Seers to be optional in the case of non-cabal Seers, and possibly adjusting how Seer Altars work in terms of limits, be it that Seers can only gain casting tells from one altar but can connect to more than two. 

 

 

Dude, I ain't reading all of that. I'm sorry LOL? Can you just give me a tldr.

 

Update: he gave me a tldr in dms. He is silly.

[Lockages 548]

Quote

Only changes I would suggest to this amendment are to alter the Seers' ability of being able to recognise other Seers to be optional in the case of non-cabal Seers, and possibly adjusting how Seer Altars work in terms of limits, be it that Seers can only gain casting tells from one altar but can connect to more than two.  - pup

This is true, I didn't think about this. It'll be an easy fix, just making sure there's an obvious cap on how many people can be on 1 altar (potentially changing how many we can make etc.), just one example of many. Altars are a fun little piece but if this amendment was to be accepted, a few gray areas need to be trimmed. I'll reach out to Pallodium about either adding onto this amendment or releasing a second one to align with it. Primary concern would just be so that you can't abuse it; But even then with the existence of rivaling covens, it would actually give the Seers in question a means to RPly challenge whatever they see as "wrong" with the approach.

 

So sure, someone could stack an altar up to keep a large group safe, but that doesn't prevent a smaller group (who thinks they are better for X or Y delusional Vaseek-fed reason) from lurching out and getting in the way. A good example from Pup being a plot to kill the king, and a smaller sect resorting to alternative tactics to protect said king. I think it'd be really fun for the players that aren't seers, because it would be so RPly and OOCly obvious that some shit is going down without you ever being able to pinpoint it.

 

This references the importance of us not being able to spread info to people beyond Seer as a whole, as it requires us to be smart in our approach. If Seer group A wishes to dismantle B's plans, they'd have to be so meticulous as to not accidentally break a tenet, that the idea of "Seer Conflict" would be unlike any other form of conflict on the server. For example, a Seer might embed themselves deeply within a social group in a nation as a natural form of defense, as getting to that player in question would be very difficult without alerting the non-Seers that might be affiliated.

 

A lot of needless rambling, but this is just one schizophrenic example of something "interesting" I could see coming from this.

1 hour ago, Onnensr said:

I've always thought playing a Seer would be the inevitable outcome for my character, at least when I started playing him. Seer fills a significant niche left entirely on its own until Tarotmancy came around, leashed to the ground by its over-reliance on a communal aspect. There's an endless number of reasons why Seers should be allowed to be in direct conflict with one another. I've heard a handful of times, "Oh you can just ignore that redline about conflict if you roleplay gaslighting your character enough", but I've always thought that flimsy at best, not something to stake entire soul slots on when the player is taking all the risk if that'd even get past an ST, not to mention if they actually enjoy the Seer community. Not to bash them at all, that's really not my intention, but I've heard many complain about it as a whole, and it's been listed as the source of many players ultimately abandoning their Seer persona. 

+1

 

It's a fantastic magic to basically take the raw essence of whatever your character is, and turn that into its own thing. Be it evil, misguided, good with bad consequences? Doesn't really matter, it's a magic that provides the tools. The main thing that pushes people away is the community, and the expectation that they'd be "Forced" to get along with everyone. It's not the only cause for a lot of great players getting disenfranchised and ultimately quitting, but it is a big thing that steers people away (Not to dismiss the community as a whole, just some people's RP is not everyone's cup'o'tea, and that's A-OK. No one should feel forced into one niche or the other, especially with a magic that promotes a lot of individual character growth / experimenting.). 

 

tl;dr

 

i think magic has too many people. adding filters like this would be good, because the alternative is rotting in a corner due to inaction. vaseek would imo look at the way seer is now vs how it was and go "yeah, change is needed." as the lore was designed to server a much smaller community. all that needs to be revised is the altars to make sure they are updated to allow for this new "cabal-forming".

[DISCOLIQUID 2701]

i want to stab blind people (im blind)

 

 

 

 

[Moumins 378]

 

•• ━━━ ••⸎•• ━━━ ••

 

THE DAY OF CHANGE NEARS....

There will be dead seer.

 

[Morigung-oog 5697]

On 7/2/2025 at 5:42 AM, Venomous_Pup said:

If this amendment was some brought up back in the early 2020s, I'd 100% agree, when the magic had a limited player base, it was entirely inconsequential if Seers didn't get a long and at that point it made IRP sense that Vaasek wouldn't want you to chase after Seers when there was so little of them that it would be a waste of time working on legitimate plots that would promote RP rather than trying to 'cleanse' the community of one entire person. However, sometimes I think between 2022 and 2023 the Seer population has utterly exploded to the point where you can throw a stone in any community and you're likely to hit a Seer, as this is an RP server, the way the current tenants are do not 'scale' well with modern LotC and the amount of Seers around. As a result, OOCly, this causes a lot of friction if people understand the tenants differently from one another, ie Seers cannot interfere with one another's plots when it is written as we can not reveal ongoing activities or conspiracies, what this should mean from an IRP stand point Seer A wants to protect a King, whereas Seer B wants to kill them. If Seer A finds out this and that Seer B was behind the plot, they couldn't just reveal that there was a plot against them, and they should work to make a counter-plot, which could mean they hire more guards, spreading false information about the King's movements, or commit a faux assassination attempt to keep everyone high on alert. And an issue that has come up somewhat in rare, infrequent cases is attempting to stretch the tenants of no harm/killing other Seers into threatening disconnects over "emotional" harm, which is a bad faith attempt for the specific individuals to protect the people they care about from getting harmed or otherwise force Seers to remain passive over fear of disconnect and utterly stifles any interesting RP and directly goes against what is written in the lore of Seers. 

IRPly as a result of how many Seers they are, which aren't grouped into any defined cabals (outside a few exceptions), it makes it difficult to act when plots or activities, without any intention, can come into conflict with one another, especially in the few exceptions, they are well established and puts them in a difficult position of conflict. Vaasek holds no real investment in the individual Seer's longevity; you are a tool for him to use, and with what was mentioned in old lore, if needed, he could 'summon' back old Seers from the dead. All this for one singular purpose of distraction, to keep the Descendants fighting among themselves to ensure his safety. If Seers are unable to act against other Nations because the danger of possibly endangering a Seer puts them at risk of losing their magic, they become passive. When they are passive, they are not causing the distraction that Vaasek wants to be stirred among the Descendants. Vaasek should not prevent plots or Seer activities from going through when they do come into conflict by any means. If a new Seer comes along and can amass great influence at the cost of another Seer's position, why would he intervene? The new Seer has simply 'replaced' the old one; his influence would remain the same, and either the old Seer has to adapt or move on. If your plot or scheme's only hope for survival is that it relies on Vaasek to protect it rather than your ability, it deserves to fail and be supplanted by the new plot/scheme.

Regarding preventing bad faith, there have already been plenty of cases of bad faith interpretations of the current tenants, and no matter which magic, no matter how well you try your best, there are always going to be cases of bad faith. When it comes to this format, thankfully, we can adjust the writing to do our best to prevent further instances of bad faith roleplay rather than throwing our hands up. While these are small changes, they are needed and can fuel better changes down the line than trying to push through everything at once; in this regard, altering the tenants to benefit Seers to work together, and preventing actions by Seers from being stopped due to possibly harming Seers who are entirely unaffiliated are desperately needed and I like how it encourages Seers to legitimately group up rather than being solo and something that should be expanded up in the future.

Only changes I would suggest to this amendment are to alter the Seers' ability of being able to recognise other Seers to be optional in the case of non-cabal Seers, and possibly adjusting how Seer Altars work in terms of limits, be it that Seers can only gain casting tells from one altar but can connect to more than two. 

 

 

Not a seer but have witnessed the problems the seer community has had recently. I feel like players need to be punished more often for bad faithing. This could be a step to helping prevent that but nothing will stop bad faithers from bad faithing entirely.

[tasty_cheesecake 2298]

u know even if this passes it still goes in recently denied lore

[Benleft 2580]

The common demoninator can easily become endless retribution & gang violence. Needs a stopgap/release valve to settle things without starting endless cartel wars fueled by klones & voidal magic. I suggest street racing. 

[Cheese 8883]

11 hours ago, Benleft said:

The common demoninator can easily become endless retribution & gang violence. Needs a stopgap/release valve to settle things without starting endless cartel wars fueled by klones & voidal magic. I suggest street racing. 

I raise thee. We need dance battles