What do you think of the Empire and its contributions to the server?

[Fluffy Horror 496]

@Rig

 

1. I can see how the characterization of a group of fictional racists as being victims of genocide is offensive. Yes, their culture and way of life was destroyed, but it was a decidedly shitty culture and way of life. Traditionally people perceive genocide as something that happens to a blameless victim. But, much like how Catholics and Protestants keep trying to genocide each other, or how the Qing dynasty genocided the Dzungar Mongols after being HORRIBLY OPPRESSED by them, genocide can happen to groups that did horrible, bad, awful things. This is a fact, not a belief.

 

2. Then why are some people calling it a Rhodesian Cross? I didn't pull the name out of my ass. People are using that term on LOTC.

 

3. Monarchy is the system of government, fascism is the ideology. Truthfully the Empire is no one thing, it can fit into several systems and ideologies, but either way, the leaders are deliberately playing to villainy- which is not a bad thing! Just something that requires a delicate touch!

[Slorbin 2932]

On 12/10/2025 at 3:39 PM, _Elrith_ said:

There are in total eight places to Roleplay on LotC that are Nations - only one of them is the Empire proper. If you don't like Empire roleplay, you have seven other options. If you do not like Canon roleplay, you have five different options. There are at least two 'Elven' nations. There are Dwarves. There are Orcs. Most of these nations permit Magicians to run around freely(for the most part). I cannot see how people feel as if their Roleplay is somehow ostracized to the point where they can't exist. I prefer that everyone who complains about the Empire air out all their reasons and post screenshots, rather than arbitrarily yapping on the forums.

Forced into vassal status
Vassalized

Being genocided

Empire

Empire

Empire

Empire

Only free nation

 

Lying is wrong

[The Tough Guy 4319]

Just now, Slorbin said:

Forced into vassal status
Vassalized

Being genocided

Empire

Empire

Empire

Empire

Only free nation

 

Lying is wrong

URGUAN #1 AAAARRRRRUUUUUUUUU LADDIES!!! TAKE THAT!!

[Rig 17579]

Just now, Fluffy Horror said:

@Rig

 

1. I can see how the characterization of a group of fictional racists as being victims of genocide is offensive. Yes, their culture and way of life was destroyed, but it was a decidedly shitty culture and way of life. Traditionally people perceive genocide as something that happens to a blameless victim. But, much like how Catholics and Protestants keep trying to genocide each other, or how the Qing dynasty genocided the Dzungar Mongols after being HORRIBLY OPPRESSED by them, genocide can happen to groups that did horrible, bad, awful things. This is a fact, not a belief.

 

2. Then why are some people calling it a Rhodesian Cross? I didn't pull the name out of my ass. People are using that term on LOTC.

 

3. Monarchy is the system of government, fascism is the ideology. Truthfully the Empire is no one thing, it can fit into several systems and ideologies, but either way, the leaders are deliberately playing to villainy.

 

1. Yes, but it's still not a genocide. You're talking about a tiny state in Idunia that was revealed to be a major cult that traffics human beings, souls, and kills people. I can't think of a real life comparison for that. Genocide has nuance, but this case is not explicit genocide. I'm also not offended, I'm just showing you that when the logic's inverted it doesn't work. A great example of a fucked up genocide borne directly from colonialism is the Rwandan Genocide, which is incredibly recent. Yes, it's tragic that children and women died in Haelun'or, but not every warcrime is tantamount to mass genocide, nor were the Haelunorians as a people ethnically cleansed. There has not been a mass organization of role-players going there solely to repeatedly kill their players and forcibly convert them to other cultures or religions. They were basically given the same terms Nazi Germany received at the end of WWII. Denazification. The settlement is still thriving and filled with multicultural elves now, which Aeus can attest as their leader. 

 

2. Because people are clearly poorly informed or somebody 8-10 years ago gave something a bad name and it's not been changed yet. I've never heard of a Rhodesian Cross in my life before now and I've played in four different empires. 

 

3. Yes, but villainy does not always equal fascism. And what's villainous for an outside group is not explicitly villainous for their in-group. It can be argued for instance that the threat on the Beastfolk by the Inquisition is reminiscent of fascist action, but that also falsely equates all acts of racism to being fascist, when the question is actually a lot deeper. Beastfolk on LoTC originally were produced by a Daemon who stole children out of their cradles and performed human experiments on them. Yes, it's wrong to target people on the basis of race, and the sins of the father are not the sins of the son, and that's racist. It can be argued there are structural forms of racism in the empire (like hating Kharajyr and Hou-Zi). However, equating it to being a pure fascist trope on the basis of White Supremacist imagery which doesn't exist in the nation, is a huge leap in logic. The Hou-Zi themselves were responsible lore-wise for enslaving the Oyashimans and Li-Ren if I remember, and colonizing them. Every group on the server (much like real life) has a troubled history with imperialism and colonialism, because those concepts are inherent to expansionism, and to the formation of a state. A book I like is "How Fascism Works" by Jason Stanley, we covered his 10 pillars recently, and if you examine them you'll notice only a few of them are partially applicable to the current state of the empire. There's a brief summary here.

 

The idea isn't that you can't interface and be critical about games, propaganda, and media. The idea is that what you're saying is not cohesive. I'm not even really offended, a friend of mine even said "She's so close to the truth, but she's 8 years late". It's not that you don't have inklings of truth here or there, it's genuinely that the information is distorted, and it's not accurate to the current situation. 

[ReveredOwl 5639]

fyi, it has been called the rhodesian cross since atleast 2015, its not something new

[Kaiser 2347]

@Fluffy HorrorI actually agree with you on the foundations of your argument, but your argumentative style is so full of logical fallacies, incorrect information on the history of LoTC, and is so overall obtuse and condescending that I feel that you are actually hurting the argument.

LoTC's community does often lean towards edginess, and that edginess can be obscure legitimate hate in our community - There are actual White Supremacists among us... but also sometimes things aren't that deep. It's a newage progressive idea to just assume any and all offensive things are hate based, when often they're just jokes. I know, I was edgy once. Still am sometimes. Rhodesia was most certainly named after the apartheid state. The OSL used to have videos calling Elves "Der Elfen" and essentially portraying Elves as Jewish characitures. The Westerlands had hidden swastikas in the build. I've lived through all that, and I'd prefer if we never returned...
 

But...

It's usually always a joke. A messed up joke meant to incur humor among teenagers and dumb young adults.

Likewise, yes, the Empire is by definition fascistic, but so are most Monarchies. These just come with the territory of creating an imaginative world, especially one based off fantasy and medieval society. There really is no onus on the part of the players to have some sort of trigger-warning or OOC explanation about the complex history of authoritarian states or blah blah -- it's a game. Some people will RP through it and understand it's fiction, it's not real, and some people will see Hadrian murdering and doing tyrannical acts and go "He's me fr fr". But that's not really on WereW0lf or anyone.

Nor are the acts of genocide or other rather deep or heavy events on LoTC worth exploring in basis to real life. You're carrying into LoTC, an overall trivial minecraft server, into the world of Critical Theory, and doing a poor job of it likewise.

[_Elrith_ 4525]

22 minutes ago, Slorbin said:

Forced into vassal status
Vassalized

Being genocided

Empire

Empire

Empire

Empire

Only free nation

 

Lying is wrong

Ad-hominem.

[SplitTheG 7740]

Comparing the destruction of shitty Minecraft communities to a genocide is a new low.

 

I demand reparations from  @Rigfor betraying // icing nordengrad 6 years ago even though he promised me that he wouldn’t join the war on the side of renatus. 

 

[Cheeseycereal 829]

1 hour ago, Fluffy Horror said:

@Rig

 

1. I can see how the characterization of a group of fictional racists as being victims of genocide is offensive. Yes, their culture and way of life was destroyed, but it was a decidedly shitty culture and way of life. Traditionally people perceive genocide as something that happens to a blameless victim. But, much like how Catholics and Protestants keep trying to genocide each other, or how the Qing dynasty genocided the Dzungar Mongols after being HORRIBLY OPPRESSED by them, genocide can happen to groups that did horrible, bad, awful things. This is a fact, not a belief.

 

2. Then why are some people calling it a Rhodesian Cross? I didn't pull the name out of my ass. People are using that term on LOTC.

 

3. Monarchy is the system of government, fascism is the ideology. Truthfully the Empire is no one thing, it can fit into several systems and ideologies, but either way, the leaders are deliberately playing to villainy- which is not a bad thing! Just something that requires a delicate touch!

 

It started with extermination, then cultural destruction, and now it’s loss of sovereignty and discomfort.

 

By that logic, post-war restructuring, decolonization, or the fall of any imperial state in LOTC history would amount to genocide.

 

I’m also puzzled by the allegation that the leadership of the Empire is “playing into villainy” when Haelun’or’s leadership knowingly sheltered Mystics within their vassalage. Simply put, having your nation attacked or destroyed does not automatically make your leadership fascist, and playing “villainy” politically does not equal fascism. Judging the Empire by ethical standards that Haelun’or never upheld seems highly contradictory.

 

Much of this argument also relies heavily on throwing buzzwords at a situation to make it sound worse than it is. Not all war crimes are genocide. Not all villainous acts demonstrate fascism. Not all crosses (especially with some research) are dog whistles. When words are stretched this far, they stop reflecting reality and start complicating it.

 

LOTC is a fantasy game, not real life. While it borrows aspects of history or culture, players are not responsible for providing exhaustive IRL context or trigger warnings. Much of the so-called “offense” seems to arise from a combination of misapplied buzzwords, historical misunderstanding, and the natural roughness that comes with a game running for over 12 years. Stretching terms like genocide, fascism, and dog whistles this far risks turning a in-game conflict into something it’s not.

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

Stop the ragebait 

[Venomous_Pup 2978]

As much as you can complain about the Empire, be they legitimate reasons or just biased views, did any established groups consider pre-emptively making coalitions or lay any groundwork for them to ensure safety among the realms and allow each nation to live in isolation without fear of a colossal Empire somehow forming and destroying them all? I feel like this was a long time coming; even before Haense fell, the current Empire simply took advantage of the power vacuum that existed with Haense's fall. I think what makes the situation a bit strange to navigate is that I think a majority of the playerbase has been conditioned on the fact that what appears to be low effort RP with incredibly high consequences is considered to be in bad faith, i.e., getting mugged and killed on the road by a bandit who literally only cares to take your loot to brag about it in VC. The problem with this is that not every time someone logs on to the server are they going to provide top-quality RP. People have bad days; it might be someone new to the server who is going to need to learn a lot of ropes. As a result, nothing short of legitimate, contexted screenshots of key Empire players admitting that the Empire's existence was to **** over other communities is going to remove the Empire. I think another issue is the fact that a lot of issues haven't been reported, and I do believe that is because there have been actual reports that don't get actioned, and then the lack of trust that anything would be done, given I feel like trust in staff is at an all-time low. To me, however, this isn't strictly the fault of the Empire, moreso the 'gameplay' systems that are in place, as I mentioned prior, literally anyone could have done this, and they would have more than likely complained about them instead, but equally, all of this could have been prevented by the current systems in place, though I am hoping it does highlight some issues in said systems to give players more creative control rather than the forcing of the mythical centralized RP. 

[Fluffy Horror 496]

@KaiserSo what if they're jokes? Joking about that stuff isn't funny. We shouldn't encourage that.

 

@CheeseycerealI feel like people have zeroed in on a singular example I gave, Haelun'or, rather than addressing the entirety of my argument. People are so focused on going "BUT YOU SEE, HAELUN'OR WAS EVIL, SO THEREFORE WE WERE RIGHTEOUS!" I'm not arguing about the morality of the situation. This isn't about Haelun'or. In fact, forget Haelun'or!

 

People seem to be so, so upset that I am referring to the Empire as villainous, like that is a bad thing. It's not! Stories need villains! Do you genuinely think that Hadrian is a good guy, a hero? Do you think that Werewolf thinks that Hadrian is a good guy and a hero? No! He's playing a Caligula-like figure! He has gone out of his way to emphasize the character's cruelty. Same with a lot of other Empire characters. You do not need to be offended on their behalves. They know what they're doing.

 

People should try reading 'The Guide to Ethical Villainy'. I know my opinion is very controversial. I think that people have a responsibility to uplift those around them in RP, even if they're on opposite sides. I get that isn't the culture of LOTC.

 

@RigOkay, cool, people are poorly informed and don't know the symbolism of Rhodesia. I'm informing now. You are twisting yourself into pretzels to try to justify not doing anything about it. Is your genuine opinion "well, people don't know, and it's part of LOTC's history anyway, so just suck it up and keep watching people do it"? We can't maybe do something about it?

 

The Empire checks some boxes on the 10 Pillars, which is enough for me to consider it as fascist. You have a different threshold than I do,  clearly. Agree to disagree.

[ferdaboy 3472]

Topic locked.

[Kaiser 2347]

10 minutes ago, Fluffy Horror said:

@KaiserSo what if they're jokes? Joking about that stuff isn't funny. We shouldn't encourage that.

 

 

My point is actionability

 

What exactly do you want me/the staff to do? Ban Werew0lf because someone in his Empire that comprises 50% of the server called a cross a Rhodesian Cross? 

[Werew0lf 24179]

Please don’t ban me….

 

Also Hadrian is the good guy.