Economics!

[Whitebeard 126]

Falkor:

"So, you're going to powergame against the playerbase? I don't think powergaming is needed ever. The town leaders should get up and go collect taxes, not have a plugin randomly place minas in a chest for them.

There's a rule against powergaming, but you're doing it anyway."

There are many plugin aspects to this server which could be considered power-gaming, such as respawning at the cloud temple after being killed. Again this 'power-gaming' is not for personal gain which is the purpose of regular 'power-gaming' this is for the betterment of the server.

If you have any further questions please shoot me a PM

[Guest Jhonen]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Taxes on trading via plugin

My concerns or ideas about the Change: I dislike this idea heavily because while taxes are good for a nation, why should it be enforced by a plugin. It should be up to a nation leader and the guards to collect taxes, not a plugin that siphons the money away immediately. Everything else I am fine with and some I really love but this one is a big no for me.

[Whitebeard 126]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Taxes on trading via plugin

My concerns or ideas about the Change: I dislike this idea heavily because while taxes are good for a nation, why should it be enforced by a plugin. It should be up to a nation leader and the guards to collect taxes, not a plugin that siphons the money away immediately. Everything else I am fine with and some I really love but this one is a big no for me.

Roleplay limits with activity etc are too big of an issue here. Doing it manually could also encourage people to leave towns which is not what we want. And to this day I have never ever seen a manual tax system work on a large scale.

If you have any further questions or concerns please shoot me a PM.

[Rissing 199]

,Sir Whitebeard

Beneath here you will find my oppinion and thoughts about the changes you wish to make.

First off, I like the changes.

They only need a few changes..

( Sorry, I had to say that. ;) )

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

- MC: Chriske19

- RP-name: Aster The Fallen/Risen

- Forum-name: Rissing

Change:

These mines would be ~15x15 (Maybe bigger).

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

Limiting these mines would indeed be a nice idea but if you look at a 15x15 permit, or a tad bigger.

It would be unrealistic and as you strive for realism and a better economy it would be rather weird.

As with a 15x15 permit I would have to mine straight down, nearly.

You would not have the ability to create roleplaying mines, anylonger.

True, not many people create mines in a roleplaying way, but some still do.

And it would more or less prevent them in a part of their roleplay.

For example: If I would be a dwarf I would create a ton of mines, all kept up standing with massive wooden pillars. Then again I am a hardcore roleplayer, but I think you get what I mean.

Limiting the mines would prevent some roleplay.

Solution: Grant good and known players, who have shown that they can make proper mines, the ability to get mines at a lower price.

EDIT: So that they can place, for example, three mines behind eachother and can make a proper roleplaying mine.

Why the lower price: Roleplaying mines can't go straight down, that would be unrealistic. Thus their permit would have to be bigger, if not much bigger. Which then again means that they would have to pay, much more.

Downside: People will complain that they can't have the same benefit.

Upside: People will become encouraged to create roleplaying mines.

Why will they get encouraged: Because of the lower prices.

Change:

Making weapons/armour and food degrade over time.

Considering the food degration over time:

I have no problem with this.

Though I would also change chests, to have the ability to preserve food.

Considering the weapons and armour degration over time:

This seems rather weird to me.

I collect weapons and armour, it's a passion of mine.

And you would trully be amased how good these still look, though being over 200 - 400 years old.

These weapons are, indeed, no longer in a state of use.

But if I look at my collection of 100 - 200 years old weapons, which is currently at my grandfathers home as I do no longer have the space for them.

Some of them are heavily used and no longer of any use.

Others, however, are in perfect shape.

Some of those were merely used as sacrificing daggers or as decoration.

Though these have not been under bare conditions after 200 years they are still in a perfect state.

Also, here, you could apply the chest rule.

That shouldn't be a too hard mod to code, it may take time yes.

( I do not know how long it would take, I don't code in MC. )

Make chests a no-time zone, so that weapons and armour do not degrade inside of them.

Change:

Giving races their own exclusive resources

I agree with this, theoretically it would be fully right to do this.

However most people do not like a full restriction.

It will increase the roleplayed tradings and events between nations.

Many players like these.

But none likes full restriction.

It would be better for most to give.

For example: Humans - 75% on lapis - 50% gold, Dwarves - 75% gold - 50% lapis.

I think you see what I mean.

Grant different nations different mining rates.

Other than that I trully love the changes, they will greatly increase the active roleplaying on the server.

Though if you would make all these changes, I, myself, would look back at the 'skill plugin', too.

[Praetor 1550]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

-Whitebeard

Change:

-Adding Ressource permits, Taxes, Armor and food degradation.

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

Adding ressource permits;

More of a concern than a critic for this one, I'm just wondering if they will be put in strategical and logical places rather than randomly, since that too would increase the RP around them, for people trying to take them over from another nation/city. I also think they should not be allowed to be taken by a single person unless with a very logical reason. ((Mad dwarf hermit or something like that)) Since they should be used to favor liaisons between nations, hostile or not.

Taxes

Well, here I do have a critic. I don't agree with making you have to pay if you are in the wilds since I think that this would kill any possibilities of smuggling, or black market that could sprout up with the appearance of this new plugin/thing. It would really promote piracy and underground trading outside in the wilds away from the avid grip of the taxe collectors. Now, to prevent abuse from people who will just step out of the town to do the transaction I have a couple ideas:

1) You can't do untaxed transactions more than 300 or so blocks from a town, so it might discourage people from simply running out of town for a simple transaction.

2) A more complicated one; Their can be only certain spots on the map where untaxed payment can be done, such as pirate coves or certain bandit camps, to favor their RP as well.

I just think that making the whole map taxed is a little too much and could kill some very intresting RP that could sprout out of this.

Armor and food degradation.

Now for this one I think it should be completely removed, simply because you can't say beforehand how some people might RP storing things. Maybe some salt their meat, meaning it would decay much slower and this wouldn't work on them. Or maybe other people put their armor and weaponry in a dry area covered in a layer of grease to prevent rusting.

While this might assist economy somewhat, I think that it might be a bit much and it shouldn't be implemented for RP reasons as well as the fact that their is a moment when you simply shouldn't go too far in realism. What if someone stores their items, and then they go off on vacation, or on a long RP trip? When they come back they won't have anything left and this could be very hard on them.

[domainoft 191]

Change: Captureable Territories.

I suggest we have plots of lands "Size depending on what they do" that are captureable, Once a group captures the said lands, they would control them for X amount of time, before other forces may declare an attack on them again. Such things as re-spawning mines, Rare biomes, and possibly Unique NPC encounters, Quests that can only be undertaken by the group that controls the land, Temples and Shrines to visit and pay Homage too.

I suggest that there be a grace period between capture and recapture so as to give the group a suitable amount of time to enjoy the benefits of the lands. This could be overseen by the monks and created into a sort of "War Game" from there RP perspective they would wish to keep the peace amongst nations as much as possible. By focusing there efforts on a more controlled war they might create peace elsewhere.

These event lands could be hosted in a world map, that you'd have to travel plugin too, preventing our world from being corrupted by the constant changes and respawns. And would also prevent nosey nosers from scouting the lands before they win the right to do so.

Reason behind the Change: I think this would make for an interesting addition to the economy.

[Aelu / Rel (Combustionary) 1540]

Change:

"Rich Areas"

Between nations, we would have areas where some material is more abundant. Maybe three times as much iron, twice as many diamonds, etc. These materials would not be able to be fully reached without the use of communities, do to either regions or the built-in digging limitation in the wilderness.

Reason behind the Change:

I don't think we should put any changes to the economy of individual players, but we should definitely make the racial/national groups have a different skills.

Rich areas would be areas where some ore-block has a higher spawn rate. These areas would have no tags that tell the player what they are; they'd have to find it out. (Diamond-rich areas could also be col-rich, so people will be able to find out after mining.)

This could also apply to trees, perhaps in some areas, they have a boosted chance at double drops. This would give racial economies some influence, as Dwarves would certainly have a higher concentration of ore-rich areas, and would help define dwarves as miners. Elves would have surpluses of wood, and so on.

There would also be ones between nations, to cause conflict. Humans and Dwarves might fight over a diamond mine, or the humans might try to keep its location a secret.

Each race would have some of these areas near the capital, as follows.

Humans - Areas where crops have a higher chance for double drops, and a slightly boosted one for triple drops. Slightly less ores, though.

Orcs - Areas with slightly more ores, and a boosted mob spawn rate. (Slight boost on hostile, large boost on passive.)

Dwarves - Higher ore rates, slightly decreased food drop rate. Seeds would remain at the same drop rate.

Elves - Slightly boosted plant drop rates. Slightly boosted lumber drop rates. Slightly less ores.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Food and armor degradation.

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

It would, in my opinion, create a lot more of the chore-like situations we made with the skill system revamp. There are just many other ways to work on the economy.

[nppeck 601]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Adding different racial currencies

Why I love this change: I think this would be a great idea and help the economy a lot in interracial trade. However, is there any way to regulate this?

[ski_king3 0]

Sorry, I have a lot of problems with these, so bear with me. I promise I will be as constructive as possible, I simply don't enjoy a lot of your ideas.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Resource Permits

My concerns or ideas about the Change: In my opinion, these cannot happen if we want mining to be remotely viable in 3.0. I understand your goal of limiting the amount of resources available, but I feel like there are a lot of other options at your disposal that are more effective.

Before I propose my potential remedies that I believe are better than this, I'd like to point out why I think this would be bad. For one, mining already is not super easy in most situations. If you want to mine very deep, both the player and the mine have to fit into certain specifications. I'm not saying these are hard to meet, but since a lot of people don't donate very large amounts or have high excavation, it's already very hard for people to just mass-mine in the wilds, where if they could, it would be easiest to get a massive amount of resources.

With this new addition, it would take mining from a relatively easy profession, to one that is totally not viable. A 15x15 area is far to small to build any sort of mine there, and it is totally unrealistic to mine every resource in the area. Not only that, but it's simply impossible to create a realistic and effective mine in this area. I know you said maybe we could make these bigger, but honestly, you'd have to make them quite a bit bigger to make these work. Also, I assume you would have to modreq to get a new resource permit, which would lead to people often probably needing to wait hours or days before getting their request finished, and would hamper their ability to gather resources and actually act upon their profession. I wish I could criticize this more clearly and less disjointedly than I have here, but for one I honestly cannot picture how this would work in my head, which is making it hard to exactly voice my criticisms, and also I don't want to write walls of text explaining myself. So now, onto possible solutions.

The first and most simple would be to lower the amount of resources in each chunk. I know the map has already been generated, which would make this more difficult, since otherwise you could have just created the map initially with less resources using a variety of mods or plugins, but even so, I feel like you could use voxel sniper (I think, I believe it's similar to world edit. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong) to replace chunks in the 3.0 map with chunks generated on another map with lower resources levels. I realize this could disturb caves, but you guys could try to import whole caves from the low resource world, or simple try to adjust them manually. Either way, I think lowering the level of resources by up to 50% would be very effective in lowering the amount of ores floating around in the economy.

The second idea I have is to lower the ore drop percentage based upon ones mining level so it is harder for players to successfully mine ores. I'm not exactly sure on these numbers, but let's say for instance that currently at level 100 mining you can mine everything except diamonds (not even sure about that) without fail. Well, instead, have it be so that iron and below is 100% drop rate at level 100, gold is 90%, and diamonds are 75%. That way, the player is not guaranteed everything they find whilst mining. Another option would simply to slow down how quickly the percentage of success in mining for these items increase, so if say iron can be mined without fail at level 75 currently, in 3.0 it wouldn't have a chance at being mined perfectly until level 100. This is, in my opinion, not as good as my previous idea, but I still think it's far better than your current idea.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Taxes

My concerns or ideas about the Change: Simply put, there is no way you can enforce guaranteed taxes in roleplay and have it make sense. If a town, city or nation have decided not to make taxes, then there should not randomly be taxes taken out of trades. Silva Insula, for example, has its lore written around the lack of taxes within its walls. There is no way you could make any sense in RP with having taxes for trades here. Basically, forcing taxes doesn't make sense and is not explainable in many situations.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Food Degradation

My concerns or ideas about the Change: The reason I don't like this is mainly because it causes problems in Minecraft. A lot of the player base isn't online at peak times, and therefore, they would completely get the short end of the stick in this scenario. Perhaps I can see it being reasonable for armour to degrade (albeit very, very slowly), but not food. It would hurt people who aren't online at peak times as well as people who can't get on as frequently as others, and as Kyn said, the food system doesn't aid in RP very much.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Giving races their own exclusive resources

My concerns or ideas about the Change: Honestly, this makes no sense in roleplay, and would cause way too many problems. It would lead to monopolies which would lead to less cooperation between nations, and instead extortion or raiding and war. Nations which have mines and blacksmiths would end up abusing whichever nation was stuck with focusing on woodcutting or farming, and that would give clear disadvantages to certain nations.

Also, most players have already picked what their character does (at least somewhat) based on their race. The dwarves have more miners and smiths, the orcs have more warriors, humans and elves have more farmers and lumberjacks. There already is a certain level of specialization within the races, and I believe many of the deviations from this are due to people having alts and being unable to switch skills between character (something I wouldn't mind). Saying that somebody with a certain skill would only be able to go to a certain area to work on their skill wouldn't be fair to those with alts.

I realize you may have been saying that race specific resources could be like a certain type of food only being grown by humans, or only a certain type of tree is grown by the elves, but I don't like this either because it wouldn't make much sense. Eventually, somebody would get some saplings or seeds and begin growing it somewhere else, and that would be the end of it.

So, with all of my criticisms being said, I am going to tell you which of your ideas I most certainly support wholeheartedly.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Removing mina drops from mobs

Why I love this change: Having minas constantly entering the economy does destabilize it and cause inflation. I think that it would be much easier for the GM's to add money to the economy (if nation currencies aren't added) in order to control inflation to a reasonable level. Perhaps we could keep smaller mina drops with a select mob or two, like enderman and zombie pigmen, in order to keep monster hunters happy and earning money, but in general we should have these drops removed.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Racial Currencies

Why I love this change: I really like this, as it would give nations the ultimate power over creating more currency and trying to curb inflation and deflation (which is worse than inflation by the way, to those who aren't economically savvy). My one problem is that instead of having them racially based, perhaps have the based on each nation? I'm sure there would be a way to code it such that there were different notes for different nations, although that would mean you'd need to get rid of the physical currency, just because I doubt there are enough spare items to implement this otherwise. But yah, these should be nation-based, not race based, but either way I still support.

[~TheDerpyBeagle~ 63]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Giving races their own exclusive resources

Why I love this change:

It brings more Roleplay, and I could see the Dwarves running out of resources and then, the greedy things they are, going to war with someone over new resources.

[domainoft 191]

Ski_King, can you make your text not all red...Its rather hard to read. I gave up after a few lines. Thank you! :)

[Tahar Dwineplith (Endmine) 2]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Resource permits

Your concerns about the Change:

I like main idea, but problem lies with wilds and unregioned plots. People will simply go to them and gather resources for free while other people will have to spend money for permits.

[Eddywilson2 2117]

Name of the person who proposed the change: Whitebeard

Change: Armor and food degration.

My concerns or idea about the change: I do not like the idea of food and armor degration for two reasons. One after the fact that food does not heal you it has already gone scarce. I sometimes spend hours looking for enough food to last me 20 minutes. Also inns would have a lot of trouble staying open. Before hand inns were the place everybody got news and met with people. It was the center of great rp. With armor it is unrealistic to say multiple pairs of armor would degrade in someones life time. Does armor really rust and get destroyed in one month? I think it is unrealistic that someone would not attend to his or her armor regularly. I truthfully think this is to much change in one moment. Add stuff in then more, but if it is done all at once with 3.0 coming it will end up with a lot of bans. Thank you for your time.

[Whitebeard 126]

To those of you who have made posts with concerns, if you have teamspeak I'd love to invite you to come and chat. Responding to all these is becoming tedious and time consuming. With many issues being repeated. So if you want to hope on now feel free!

[Austin 697]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Armour and food degrading.

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

I don't understand about the armor degrading over time... I mean if you put some iron armour on a rack and leave it there it's not going to magically just disintigrate over 10 years, not even 100 years. That my friend is just silly and rediculous. Also if we are to have food degrade then there should be ways to preserve food. I.E Ice Box's with something like this:

\

Also apples shouldn't degrade as fast as per say, bread or meat or stew. And maybe Golden Apples never degrade?

Also on a sidenote, all form of economy is worthless to Orcs so there is no point in developing a economy FOR the orcs.