Economics!

[Gobb'Mar 67]

I am going to comment on each idea in this post, so feel free to delete my older post should you feel it is now irrelevant.

[Name of the Person who Proposed these Changes]

Whitebeard

[Change]

Removing Mina drops from Mobs.

[Why I love this change]

Ah, the Monster Hunter. I am in no way trying to flame monster hunters and I realise there are likely many people out there who roleplay them very well, but the general opinion I have conceived about Monster Hunters based purely on the posters who represent them in this thread is that they are, to put it simply, quite lazy.

As I stated previously, no profession should be able to create Minas/Emeralds from thin air. Every profession other than the Monster Hunter has to sell their wares to make money. I don't see why the Monster Hunter should be any different. They raise concerns that they will have no source of income? I say bull****, Monster Hunters are the only professions able to gather Magma Cream, Blaze Powder, Ghast Tears and Spider Eyes (materials that any good Alchemist will need) and Bones (for Farmers and Lumberjacks). They are also the only profession that will be able to gather monster heads (which will be very rare and thus will likely sell for a lot, especially with the orcs) and they'll be able to get various rare drops (such as bows, armor and ingots) that can be sold to all kinds of people.

I'm sorry, but I don't think Monster Hunters have any right to complain.

[Change]

Adding Resource Permits

[Why I love this change]

Yes, yes and yes. The days where people could go out in to the wilds, find a nice spot and dig down to diamond level should be gone. Let's be honest, it's unrealistic to think that one person alone could set up a mine single-handedly. And even if it's a group of friends doing it, a mine isn't a small thing that happens over night. I say that mines should be controlled by the nations, and that no mines should be allowed in the Wilds. Let mines be hubs for RP!

[Change]

Taxes

[Reason behind this change]

I think it's a very good idea for nations to be getting money from taxes. However, I believe that rather than having this automated tax-per-purchase, shopkeepers should consider taxes when putting a price tag on their wares. Rather than making the person pay taxes for buying from the shop, the shopkeeper should instead give a small percentage of what they earned per month to the tax collector. I'd like it if people would give me some feedback on this idea!

[Change]

Making weapons/armour and food degrade over time.

[Reason behind this change]

I agree completely with food degrading. Someone shouldn't be able to buy a load of food when it's cheap and let it last them the year. They should only be buying food for the week, not the next year. Certain foods should last longer than others, I believe that food that heal more should not last as long as foods that heal less. That way, there's a purpose for making and buying these foods.

With armour, I think a different system should be in place. Armour won't degrade in the same sense as food in that it won't disappear. However, if it is walked about in too much, it will lose durability, albeit a lot slower than it is lost in combat. This way, there's a point to leaving armour at home rather than going to the local market in full diamond gear. For weapons... I think they should just work the same way as they do in vanilla, that being they lose durability on use.

[Change]

Adding in different racial currencies

[My concerns or ideas about the Change]

Em... I don't mean to be pointlessly critical... but I just don't see the point? All it will do is add unnecessary hassle of turning racial currencies in to other racial currencies. You'll still have the same amount of money at the end of the day. Although this is coming from someone who doesn't know why we don't have a universal currency so I apologise for my noobiness.

[Change]

Giving races their own exclusive resources

[Why I love this change]

Yes! No nation should have access to every resource. If that was the case, so much of our history would be irrelevant. In my opinion, Humans should have the most farmland, Elves should have the most lumber, Dwarves should have the most mines and Orcs should have the most hostile mobs. Humans should have the least hostile mobs, Elves should have the least mines, Dwarves should have the least farmland and Orcs should have the least lumber. (Or maybe Dwarves have least lumber and Orcs have least farmland, I'm open for discussion on this.)

[Kanrath 190]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Permits

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

Contrary to the beliefs of some, currently only iron and coal can be mined by the vast majority of people when in the wilds, a very slim few can reach to gold and lapis, but this requires them be a 300-500 donator. To suddenly place a magic all seeing overlord who prevents anyone from moving some dirt around is silly meta at the best. The likelihood of this occurring is slim, as is suddenly requiring us to pay money to the same overlord for placing a mine in the wilds as if you were suddenly allowed to get a mining permit in the wilds, the market would quickly be flooded by diamonds and other materials. Right now the public mining camps are pretty neat and add rp at times, and for now are perhaps our best option.

In fact suddenly regioning the entire wilds would prevent people from doing almost anything, from harvesting seeds to cutting trees, all of which clearly do not require so overlord to approve.

[chaotikal 2392]

I dislike greatly the taxes, what if it's a man-on-man pact, with no taxes... Or what if someone messed up on the giving command and gave up more than he needed to?, no, a definite no.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Taxes

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

I think it is highly unrealistic for money to simply dissapear from transactions, where it should be achieved through roleplay, a plugin will now handle this. I highly disagree with a plugin handling our transactions, I mean, what if the transaction was made by independent traders? there's no realism, logic nor explanation into that. Per say, it wouldn't make sense for kings to charge over a simple trade... Rather tax over the actual life of the "trader" and "buyer". We aren't in modern times, they won't charge interest over things, so let's not get too ahead of ourselves.

[Lyuin 65]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Mob drops.

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

ehh, generally the fact I'm going to have to rearrange my character to be able to sustain his living. It will also be annoying because my timezone GMT has about 30 people on at once :/

Well, myeh Im sure its going to be: either 100 smithing or 100 stealth. Oh and one more thing, Without mob drops wont stealth be useless unless your in pvp?

[Ezo Karasuga 356]

((

I've recently come back to LOTC. Many Aegis veterans may remember me as the guy who ran an economic empire from behind a bar. If I remember correctly, 1 Tavern, 5 Shops, 2 Banks, 2 Inns, 1 "Ore House" All ran by about 8 employees I managed. All got good business. I was told players even kept the VonSchlichten name and opened a business in the new Alras. So, not to toot my own horn, but I feel maybe some advice from me might help get things back to "the way things were" economically speaking.

From what I gather, the worries deal with inflation. And I disagree with the statement "You can't control a minecraft economy". You can help it evolve. However of the suggestions I don't see really any money sinks other than item degrading. And its not even taking money out of the economy. The bathtub is filling up faster than we can drain it. What happened to the 5% death penalty? It encouraged players to RP by playing more cautious AND it did a service of keeping inflation under control.

Another suggestion is making to move to Citizens 2 and adding Blacksmiths. This isnt to put players out of business. But rich players who don't have the time to hunt down another player can simply pay a hefty cost to get gear repaired.

And the elephant in the room is the dreaded "AutoShop". The truth is players want convenience. ChestShop or Signshop don't seem to be plauged with the performance taxing issues displayshops and serverside database text shops have. And if I can only buy apples from John's Apple Stand for the 2 hour window a day he plays (and maybe only 20 mins hes in the stall), there is a large chance he will never get my business. Unless you hire people to staff stores for many hours a day, a large amount of goods will never change hands. The best merchant will only be moderately successful at best. And people don't want to work in a game staffing a shop 8 hours a day. You want to decorate the shop and talk with customers. Find new stuff to sell and attract new customers! The crowd favorite place I ran was an Inn/Tavern set up with Autoshops. I had an NPC at the counter who would greet the patrons and they could "order" from her. I never saw what was so non-RP about it...

The folks who would abuse the mechanic buy opening a small shack that would stock a warehouse worth of inventory did break immersion.

I do agree with adding nation specific resources. Encouraging trade (or smuggling) can lead to more interesting RP. I was saddened when I returned knowing any reality of even creating a sliver of my former empire would be impossible.

But the bottom line is people need to start buying and selling again. The ability to buy and sell goods needs to be made more accessible to people. Allow Gold and above VIP's to open a set number of Chest/Sign shops. Get the wheels of commerce turning again.

))

[Lock 'eed Ironheart 120]

Put a cap on how many items can be in said shop to remove warehouse shops. You get a shop it can only hold I don't know 1-3 types of things from that area of biome. If a player is caught using his shop with more then limited amount destroy the shop and say thiefs broke into it because items were everywhere and unsecure(Then warn them not to abuse the market, or strike or ban I don't know). I perfer in game punishment over bans any day but I'm not a gm do what ever would be fit. As for shops we do need a plug for them but with a set guidline/limits as to what a person can do with said shop.

Little example

Timber camp shop

1 slot-Oak logs, player is selling 128 total

2 slot-Birch logs, player is selling 64 total

3 slot-Birch planks, player is selling 50 total

----------------------------------

This shop is near a oak/birch forest. Doesnt matter quantity unless you want to limit that as well to encourage the player to be on more to restock shop. Which ever people prefer. But Tim the Timber shop owner can only have three types in his shop and they have to be semi related to his job/area. You can still post on trades but that requires being there in person.

Hmmm what are we getting money wise? Is it back to emeralds or the invis coin? We still don't know how this would work with emeralds or notes.

Anyways thats my two cents on limiting auto shops to promote rp and regional immersion.

[domainoft 191]

I like the last two suggestions except, Don't make shops biome restricted. You could always travel far and wide to gather rare materials to sell, such as a stone smith shop, or even in your example a Timber company. Most timber company import exotic woods from all over the world to sell. The wheels of trade have always been a focal point for there server, and a gathering place of minds and RP. Without shops we are made to be self sufficient, and we get to caught up in serving ourselves.

[Ezo Karasuga 356]

To hit back on the Item Decay proposed by the OP. You are not curbing inflation with that. Only if people allow their goods to deteriorate and get destroyed THEN buying goods to replace it does it curb inflation. Even so it is pretty convoluted. Within days the purchasing habits of players will change. Instead of stockpiling food they will just purchase enough for a week or two. I love it because its realistic. But I hate it because it is not accomplishing the goal of helping to control inflation.

With limiting shops, by getting rid of the server-side text based ones and making a move to Signshop/Display shop. You can simply limit the allowed shops to be created via permission nodes already in place. 1 Sign/Chest = one Item (at least for ChestShop). So Iron VIP gets 3-4 chests (One Shop), Gold 6-8 (two shops), Diamond 12-16 (Four shops) and keep it up for the higher echelons of donators.

I dont prefer punishment and rules to try to control the economy. Admins and GMs don't want to waste their time policing shops over people abusing the system. Ideally you want a system that can run itself. The whole reason I am back at LOTC is because I was sick of pulling my hair out admining my own RP server. At least LOTC has a dedicated team and just one 1 person. The one thing I can say is that the economy ran by itself. It took work to set it up and just idea-planting to my player, but it worked.

Regards

[Whitebeard 126]

To hit back on the Item Decay proposed by the OP. You are not curbing inflation with that. Only if people allow their goods to deteriorate and get destroyed THEN buying goods to replace it does it curb inflation. Even so it is pretty convoluted. Within days the purchasing habits of players will change. Instead of stockpiling food they will just purchase enough for a week or two. I love it because its realistic. But I hate it because it is not accomplishing the goal of helping to control inflation.

With limiting shops, by getting rid of the server-side text based ones and making a move to Signshop/Display shop. You can simply limit the allowed shops to be created via permission nodes already in place. 1 Sign/Chest = one Item (at least for ChestShop). So Iron VIP gets 3-4 chests (One Shop), Gold 6-8 (two shops), Diamond 12-16 (Four shops) and keep it up for the higher echelons of donators.

I dont prefer punishment and rules to try to control the economy. Admins and GMs don't want to waste their time policing shops over people abusing the system. Ideally you want a system that can run itself. The whole reason I am back at LOTC is because I was sick of pulling my hair out admining my own RP server. At least LOTC has a dedicated team and just one 1 person. The one thing I can say is that the economy ran by itself. It took work to set it up and just idea-planting to my player, but it worked.

Regards

The deterioration of items was not mean't to control inflation... I'm not sure where you got that idea from....

[Ezo Karasuga 356]

The deterioration of items was not mean't to control inflation... I'm not sure where you got that idea from....

All decay and deterioration is used to control some form of inflation. The way I interpreted,

"This would keep people like Miners, Bakers, chefs, armour smiths, sword smiths, hunters and just about every job I can think of at work. Because there would be a constant demand for more food, more weapons, repairs etc."

Creating demand, keeping people spending money. It's helping to control inflation.

With the previous suggestions of taxes and removing minas from mob drops. those all deal with controlling inflation. I apologize I did not see the ideas were not specifically centered around controlling that inflating demon.

The Food and Item decay are only a part of my talking points.

What do you think of my other suggestions, Whitebeard?

[Agent Miller 26]

I think all the ideas suggested by Whitebeard are pretty good. They help create more RP (in most cases) and will give the economy another kickstart. +1 to whitebeard, keep up the good work.

[Nicodemus 6]

-snip-

[Casamir 42]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:Whitebeard

Change: No minas from mobs

My concerns or ideas about the Change: in your little post there, state "But Whitebeard now I can't make a living by running around killing mobs 24/7, now I have to go and roleplay selling my goods to merchants!"

Now this is true for some, but for folks like me (Two kids, full time job, this is more a little fun side game mixed in with my WoW raiding, plus other games for other systems) I tend to be a bit hermitish, I live out in the country side (I dislike paying taxes and with no shop plugin currently I have no stable income to afford the city taxes) And I'm a tad Anti-Social (I do RP but with a small select group of players whom I have been involved with since aegis, I do spread out sometimes and have Rp'd with alot of new people but I run into some really weird, or really bad RP and I mostly try to avoid that sort of thing) So I ask, what sort of goods am I supposed to sell to merchants? (This all of course depends on who skills will work if they are even in game in the future)

Mostly I blacksmith, but my guy doesn't (or didn't) mine, so I paid a guy for ores, when I run low on cash and sales aren't doing good, I would resort to hunting, it got me some materials on the side, and some spare coins, allowing me to lower prices, to get some sales, or make some fresh stock "on the house"

I am all for other forms of mina control Maybe a limit on amount of minas received from hunting in a day? make it so after getting x Minas from mobs per MC day, or IRL time, you get a message that says "Mobs don't seem to be carrying any loot anymore"

TL:DR Mob Farming provides funds for us with limited time on the server, If the skill plugin is reintroduced and restrictions placed, Minas will be needed to survive, so it's only fair everyone has a chance to get them.

Second part TL:DR Put a mina gained from killing mobs limit per day or IRL time, it doesn't stop mob hunting being profitable, but it prevents it from being more than just a living.

[LordOctopus 8]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Resource Permits

My concerns or ideas about the Change: This is an excellent idea, don't take me wrong, but the same objective should be implemented differently. Instead of having OOC resource permits, the 3.0 map should have resources be extremely scarce in the world. Of course, there would be the occasional mine and such in the Wilds, but that's beside the point. Instead of having widespread minerals, there would be scattered mines of a highly concentrated mineral. For example, there would be a cavern in the depths of the Mountains that would have an abundance of iron, etc. Areas that are NOT mines would have very little valuable minerals. They would have some coal, a tad of iron, and, if one is lucky, a diamond or two, but they would be pretty much empty.

Before you shoot it down, just look at it. If the "exclusive mineral" idea is implemented, the races could trade minerals that they have mined out of the mines that they control. They would wage raids and war to capture these mines. This idea is really similar to the original, but it gives it a RP touch, and a tad bit less RPG.

These controlled mining points would be very rich of minerals. In fact, real mines are quite big. Diamond mines in Africa are still pumping diamonds, and those miners have giant drilling machines. In the 3.0 world, these mines would contain chests and chests of ore and mineral.

Benefits: To sum it all up, this idea adds the ability of having a fluctuating and interactive environment. It adds the ability of very-weak monopoly and necessity of trade. All invite bargaining and roleplay. Watch out for bandits, of course!

EDIT: Sorry for the necroing but I just had to put this out there. Also, hats off to Whitebeard and the author of that "outpost" idea in the Ideas Forum. Thanks!

[Nandz64 4]

(I apologize for the informal structure of my post, and that I did not read the last 9 pages, and could possibly be regurgitating an option already mentioned.)

(I also apologize if this post tempts you into TL;DR, and if so please tell me so I can shorten it for future readers.)

Non-fancy version - Currencies come from exclusive materials, encourage travel.

While I'm sure I'm not the first who has thought of this, but what if the currencies of different nations were by an irreversible process minted using whatever material is exclusive to the capital? Provided we removed mina drops from mobs, this would cause merchants to try and seed their shops in more cities, leading to more competition, as well as forcing them to move cargo between cities to take advantage of better prices elsewhere. Provided distances between capitals is furthered (and the humans don't take over land nearest to the spawn), this would allow players to get all goods in whichever city they live in, as well as encourage consumers to travel to other nations to get cheaper prices.

For once, elven and dwarfish cities won't be ghost towns.

Also, we can simply solve the mina drop by giving expensive drops more frequently.

This is tricky, as almost every player in 2.5 has about 6 bows in their inventory because of skeletons.

These drops have to be worth around the old mina value and be of use to every profession, as well as being salvageable to a building block if drops become too easy and commonplace. Stone and wood tools seem like the best answer, since their value will never be above 10 minas.