Economics!

[Whitebeard 126]

Please take the time to read the ENTIRE thread before posting.

As you may have all read I made a thread regarding removing mob drops, I'd encourage those reading this thread to go and check it out. Throughout this thread there was a relatively even amount of positive and negative feedback I have taken this into consideration and will be addressed in the below points.

To begin I'd first like to address what the current state of our economy is and why it is this way. For the purpose of this thread I'm going to compare it with the early Aegis' economy.

Back in the days of the first few weeks (even months) of Aegis the economy was an abundant pool of trade. Commerce was something to be taken seriously and was an actual enjoyable experience, although a lot of people still enjoy running a shop or a business, I believe Lord of the Crafts potential is still not be reached. Many may argue that running and controlling a 'Minecraft' economy is impossible, they may say that resources are much too plentiful and money just keeps coming into the server causing large amounts inflation and the devaluation of Minas to occur. This is something that has continued to effect our economy and make things worse. Those who are heavily involved in trade and were here during the original times in Aegis will be able to easily make the comparison and notice the many differences between them.

So what is it the staff want to do to correct the issue of the infinite abundance materials and Minas in 3.0?

I'm aware that no matter what I suggest or the manner in which I suggest it people are going to disagree with almost everything I have to say here. If we look at the state of the current economy objectively and realize what is happening and why it is happening we can come to a solution. I have spoken with as many staff members I could to collaborate ideas. This included speaking with people on Teamspeak and posting on the forums and relaying ideas.

So what are our ideas (Note these are only ideas and not actual changes)?

[Change]

Removing Mina drops from Mobs.

[Reason for the Change]

One I have talked about in great detail is mob drops. A lot of people disliked the idea of removing any mob drops, but I'm going to go ahead and make a compromise. I'm going to suggest that no Mina will drop from mobs.... however the chance for rarer items will still remain. This will prevent ANY money from entering the economy that we cannot control.

But Whitebeard now I can't make a living by running around killing mobs 24/7, now I have to go and roleplay selling my goods to merchants!

Edit: This would work provided that mobs were nerfed significantly.

[Change]

Adding resource permits

[Reason for the Change]

Resources within Minecraft are everywhere, they exist wherever you walk and wherever you look. To control the abundance of resources we could add in regioned mines. These mines would be ~15x15 (Maybe bigger). Once you have mined all of the ore from the mine, you will lose access and will need to buy another mine. The deeper the mine is, the more expensive it will be. Used mines will eventually be refreshed for players to access once again. Questions and concerns will be asked on this I know, but considering the benefits I believe this is a MUST.

But Whitebeard now I won't be able to have an infinite amount of resources which allow me to single handedly destroy the economy and the value of ores, now I may have to actually help the economy and make investments!

[Change]

Taxes (A certainty of life)

[Reason for the Change]

A tax minimum of 5% could be added to all monetary transactions, but where does this money go? Depending on where the player is currently located your 5% would either be transferred to the town owner or removed from the economy completely if the player is not within a city. This change would allow town leaders to make money and to encourage trade within his or her city. Obviously a plugin would be needed to do this and it will be difficult with the current emerald system. Exceptions to this tax may apply (But I'm not telling!)

But Whitebeard I hate taxes, I want to keep my money so I can become a millionaire without actually helping anyone but myself!

[Change]

Making weapons/armour and food degrade over time.

[Reason for the Change]

Now before I say why, I know you are ALL going to hate this and I can understand your worriedness! But if we perhaps take a look at this objectively. This would keep people like Miners, Bakers, chefs, armour smiths, sword smiths, hunters and just about every job I can think of at work. Because there would be a constant demand for more food, more weapons, repairs etc. Note that the items would never fully destroy themselves they would just degrade to around 10% durability. Note that this would happen over a long period of time at least 2-4 weeks.

But Whitebeard, now I can't horde 100 stacks of bread and weapons and then sell them for super cheap and become a millionaire!

Edit: This change would work provided that hunger healed you when full.

[Change]

Adding in different racial currencies

[Reason for the Change]

Although Economically this might not make a massive difference I think it would be majorly interesting for nations to try and control their own currency. That is all.

But Whitebeard now I can't cripple all the nations economy by myself!

EDIT: Those who visit other races mines could incur some sort of added cost or something of that nature.

[Change]

Giving races their own exclusive resources

[Reason for the Change]

This change encourages international trading, forcing nations to exchange goods in order to keep their own nation prosperous. This would also create some interesting ambassador relations type roleplay. Be aware that certain races would also have an abundance of certain resources while other races might have less of a certain resource or mob.

But Whitebeard now I can't make my nation awesome without talking and being friends with other nations!

Note: I have a load more ideas, but some will depend on some changes in the future. Also note that all these changes are directed at 3.0 and not the current time. Many of these ideas were not created by me and do not claim to have thought them up, please don't sue me.

Now, I now you are all keen to attack me and tear my ideas to pieces, so I'll let you have your turn! But while doing so please follow this format with ALL your posts!

Those of you who want to suggest more ideas which could be added to this fancy shancy list, use this!

[b]Change:[/b]


[b]Reason behind the Change:[/b]

If you love an idea and want to give it some love, use this.

[b]Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:[/b]


[b]Change:[/b]


[b]Why I love this change:[/b]

Those of you who wish to add fair and calm criticism to mine and other peoples ideas.....

[b]Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:[/b]


[b]Change:[/b]


[b]My concerns or ideas about the Change:[/b]

[Whitebeard 126]

Myself and Heibe's compromise.

Change: Allowing in a Shop Plugin

Reasons Behind the Plugin: Allowing a shop plugin to be added to the server with a catch. There would be an added tax of say an extra 5-10%. RP wise this could be explained by the need to pay your shop keeper while you are away. Essentially this added charge would cause those with shop plugins to raise their prices which in turn will encourage players to visit shops where personal selling is involved in order to buy items for a lower cost.

[Hiebe 2493]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Resource permits

Your concerns about the Change:

The permits should be set up by nations so sell to miners or lumberjacks that can get permits to a lumber yard. Each mine would be different and the owner of said mine (nation leader or guild leader) can change to cost for each permit. This money should not be going to a void or monks (maybe a 10%) but most of it should go to the mine owner. Also each mine should be different and you can only buy a permit in a Coal mine if you are right next to it. \

Everything else I like so

[aron. 427]

I am a farmer, and I approve of the food going bad. That would make people rely on others much more, and boost economy rp! Also, taxes going towards kingdoms will be a great addition, because as of now, kingdoms don't really have a steady source of income.

[Hiebe 2493]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Food rotting

Why you love this change:

I kinda do but I think some foods should be able to be stored for loner times. Raw wheat and potatoes should last longer then fresh apples or pumpkins. Just an Idea.

[thetipton 0]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Weapons degrade

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

For some blacksmiths at the camp i work for keep their armour for when new people arrive and/or workers come. Thing is we don't get a lot of traffic because our boat is hard to find at the docks.

[Whitebeard 126]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Weapons degrade

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

For some blacksmiths at the camp i work for keep their armour for when new people arrive and/or workers come. Thing is we don't get a lot of traffic because our boat is hard to find at the docks.

The actual rate at which the items degrade would be relatively slow.

[Geo 1415]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Exclusive Resources

Why I love this change:

Currently I have a city made out of Jungle trees, something I thought were a rather exclusive materials. This means we (The kharajyr) Have plentiful access to this pool of resource and would make attempts to trade this to other nations. But no, what is the point when just about every other player in the server has access to such resource. I like this idea.

[XkynarethX 109]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Rotting food.

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

We already have enough issues with hunger. It doesn't heal you, you lose it fast no matter what, and it kills you. Usually, it only hurts RP rather than making it. Everything else is fine and dandy.

[Lym 849]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Giving races their own exclusive resources

Why I love this change:

It creates role-play while it does not force nations into being peaceful. Conquered lands could be used as "resource outposts".

[Song Druid 1486]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Resource Permits

My concerns or ideas about the Change: Regenerating mines is, if not mistaken, what caused Aegis' map to corrupt. Also, this could possibly create hugely unnecessary work for GMs-but I'm sure this possibility has been explored. I'd think keeping mines that have been depleted empty will benefit RP more, as empty mines can be utilized for RP purposes or simply left as evidence just as the real world. I think this system can be loosely used in conjuncture with my suggestion below:

Change: Implementing a "Miners' Guild"

Reason behind the Change: So, massive mines with huge stores of ores would not be harvested by individuals anyways, so why not let guilds or companies started by members actually control a majority of the mining, by moving from location to location, searching for ore? Add "prospecting" as a skill so people can be a part of the organization while not having the mining skill, and be paid money for their skill in locating the valuable resource, and the miners retrieve it. Once this source is depleted, they pay a huge tax for the privilege to mine the items, and go and sell/distribute the ores, and pay the miners. Small time miners can use the above system, but truthfully no city should have a system in place to give people mines regularly, because a majority of citizens wouldn't live a life of a miner. Miners would, naturally, travel and go where the ores are. Just food for thought. Additionally, the process of refining/extracting ore can be stretched out, and make it more difficult and more realistic to pump into the world.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard (Well really Respiren but I forgive you :P)

Change: Resources indigenous to different regions

Why I love this change: I love this idea. This was largely discussed for Asulon, I remember hearing Respiren describe how RP could drive people towards Normandor because spiders were indigenous to the forests and therefore the Elves make the bows. Just little things like this make it interesting and diverse for RP to spread out.

[Lego XBOX 915]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Removing Mina drops from Mobs.

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

Mobs are currently over-powered and not justified RPly in any aspect, or very little. Removing the Minas drops is like removing all necessity for mobs in the first place. An example of a useless and RP breaking mob is the green slime which already represents this problem. Furthermore, why couldn't a relatively trained swordsman go hunt a zombie to get some coins to catch a carriage to Ildon from Arethor? Keeping the rare items to sell doesn't make any sort of compromise. You need other players close by to SELL those items. When on GMT or AUS time-zones, the probability of players being found is low to null. This is going to penalize people on those time zones and could also break the economy for those players.

However, I offer a comprimise: Remove the Mina drops, remove the mobs or nerf the mobs immensely.

---

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Adding resource permits

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

I see you are talking about mines there, and thats fine, but if you are planning to extend this sort of restriction to other resources such as wheat and lumber, its a big no-no. Lumber for construction is already tedious to get so I don't see how its so 'abundant' being it that a large part of player base has a fairly limited access to the land.

---

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Taxes (A certainty of life)

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

I call complete Meta-gaming here. There is absolutely nothing around to tax you automatically when buying things. Lets say you are in the wilderness, is a zombie going to walk up and say "There is a 5% tax in 'dis land, money, now."? No. Even in towns, it should be up to the leader of the town/city to dictate taxes and there is no way they can tax transactions. They are able to tax on the total revenue but not on a simple transaction like buying an apple. Seriously... this would only benefit town leaders and make everyone want to be one, creating large problems.

---

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Making weapons/armour and food degrade over time.

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

The food part is interesting, yes, like M&B. However it should only apply to meats and fruits which require being fresh at all times. Bread is still eatable after a long time anyway and Full Watermelons can be kept for a long time. It shouldn't affect resources such as wheat though, wheat is for long-time storage.

However the weapons and armor have no reason to degrade. If you leave a sword in a sheath for many years, nothing is going to happen to it. For it to slowly break is unrealistic at the least. Armor really would only degrade, slowly that is, when being worn, stored armor has nothing to degrade it. Unless you are a weird person who stores their metals in water.

---

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change:

Whitebeard

Change:

Giving races their own exclusive resources

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

If these were exclusive as in, the certain race had more of it, then its fine. However, if it means only that race can have a certain resource, that is just random, unless its ores and metals. You can really plant any tree for example in a certain area and grow it to get that resource. Same goes for food/farm products. This would furthermore remove conflicts which cause war-claims to a certain extent, it'd all have to be resolved diplomatically and orcs don't have such capacity.

This would be good if the exclusive resources were like the supply was larger, but other could still get it.

Anyway, this already exists with trade items. You can only get really good cannons from dwarves for example.

[Lago 2572]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Part of the tax change.

My concerns or ideas about the Change: If we're preventing uncontrollable addition of minas to the economy, why is it then sensible to have uncontrollable removal of minas from the economy? Wiping minas in transactions outside of cities strikes me as a very bad idea.

Electronic autotaxation seems unrealistic to me in a fantasy setting. Nevertheless, I don't see another solution, so here's a few ideas to improve it.

Nations have national coffers which taxes are paid to, rather than sending minas to the nation leader. The nation leader and anyone they permit can take money out via /extract [nation] [amount] [reason], and then anyone with permissions to the coffers/GMs can read the logs of who's taken money out to prevent abuse.

Trades that are not near settlements are still paid to the nearest nation, but at say 8% rather than say 4%. Unregioned trades are sent to the Temple Treasury rather than wiped. Money in the Temple Treasury, (see the coffers idea) and then reinjected into the economy via events.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Making weapons/armour and food degrade over time.

My concerns or ideas about the Change: Metal doesn't rot, and it won't rust easily if cared for well. Food should turn to rotten meat (which should be contraband to sell and which would need its toxicity increased) in the case of meats or to something else in the case of bread, rather than wiping. Tools, weapons and armour are degraded by use, and they'll be limited by the resource limits you intend to impose.

That's not the main problem. The problem is that attaching timers to every single instance of food on the map would strain the server quite badly.

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Resource Permits

My concerns or ideas about the Change: Regenerating mines is, if not mistaken, what caused Aegis' map to corrupt. Also, this could possibly create hugely unnecessary work for GMs-but I'm sure this possibility has been explored. I'd think keeping mines that have been depleted empty will benefit RP more, as empty mines can be utilized for RP purposes or simply left as evidence just as the real world. I think this system can be loosely used in conjuncture with my suggestion below:

I believe this would be done with Multiverse.

[Whitebeard 126]

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

Mobs are currently over-powered and not justified RPly in any aspect, or very little. Removing the Minas drops is like removing all necessity for mobs in the first place. An example of a useless and RP breaking mob is the green slime which already represents this problem. Furthermore, why couldn't a relatively trained swordsman go hunt a zombie to get some coins to catch a carriage to Ildon from Arethor? Keeping the rare items to sell doesn't make any sort of compromise. You need other players close by to SELL those items. When on GMT or AUS time-zones, the probability of players being found is low to null. This is going to penalize people on those time zones and could also break the economy for those players.

However, I offer a comprimise: Remove the Mina drops, remove the mobs or nerf the mobs immensely.

---

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

I see you are talking about mines there, and thats fine, but if you are planning to extend this sort of restriction to other resources such as wheat and lumber, its a big no-no. Lumber for construction is already tedious to get so I don't see how its so 'abundant' being it that a large part of player base has a fairly limited access to the land.

---

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

I call complete Meta-gaming here. There is absolutely nothing around to tax you automatically when buying things. Lets say you are in the wilderness, is a zombie going to walk up and say "There is a 5% tax in 'dis land, money, now."? No. Even in towns, it should be up to the leader of the town/city to dictate taxes and there is no way they can tax transactions. They are able to tax on the total revenue but not on a simple transaction like buying an apple. Seriously... this would only benefit town leaders and make everyone want to be one, creating large problems.

---

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

The food part is interesting, yes, like M&B. However it should only apply to meats and fruits which require being fresh at all times. Bread is still eatable after a long time anyway and Full Watermelons can be kept for a long time. It shouldn't affect resources such as wheat though, wheat is for long-time storage.

However the weapons and armor have no reason to degrade. If you leave a sword in a sheath for many years, nothing is going to happen to it. For it to slowly break is unrealistic at the least. Armor really would only degrade, slowly that is, when being worn, stored armor has nothing to degrade it. Unless you are a weird person who stores their metals in water.

---

My concerns or ideas about the Change:

If these were exclusive as in, the certain race had more of it, then its fine. However, if it means only that race can have a certain resource, that is just random, unless its ores and metals. You can really plant any tree for example in a certain area and grow it to get that resource. Same goes for food/farm products. This would furthermore remove conflicts which cause war-claims to a certain extent, it'd all have to be resolved diplomatically and orcs don't have such capacity.

This would be good if the exclusive resources were like the supply was larger, but other could still get it.

Anyway, this already exists with trade items. You can only get really good cannons from dwarves for example.

Mob-drops: I agree that they need to be nerfed if this change is added. Your concern for players in secluded timezones is something that needs to be taken into account, however I'd like to know how removing minas drops, removing mobs or nerfing them immensely will solve this problem for them?

Mining Permits: I must disagree with you here, I feel as though having lumber yards would actually help players get MORE wood. It would give players a clear location at which they can access and obtain lumber.

Taxes: Yes there is a certain element of 'Meta-gaming' even 'power-gaming' if you will, but I feel a step like this needs to be made for the betterment of the server. I do not think it will cause anyones roleplay to be harmed like the usual cases of meta-gaming do. Allowing players to dictate taxes is something I had considered and I still consider it a viable option if handled correctly. However I feel as though town leaders might add a tax that is a rediculous amount which members of that town may make the mistake of making an exchange unaware of the tax rate which may cost them dearly.

Degrading Materials: Sure maybe there are certain elements that are 'unrealistic' but if we want to talk about realism, how is it we can craft a diamond sword with 2 tiny diamonds? Realism isn't something LoTC nor Minecraft is going for. The staff of LoTC are looking to help make shop roleplay a more exciting thing to do which encourages more roleplay.

Exclusive Resources: These things would differ, certain things might be 100% exclusive to that race, other things they might just have a greater abundance of. And I'm talking about physical resources not roleplay type items such as cannons.

If you have any further questions or complaints about this issue please send me a personal message.

[Twiddlepop 99]

Name of the Person who Proposed the Change: Whitebeard

Change: Mob drops

My concerns or ideas about the Change: Some people on LOTC are unable to gather the resources required for selling, and local merchants may not be in a similar timezone. Making it hard to gain minas makes it hard for the smaller people in the world to get by. I think that to enjoy your RP time on LOTC, you can't be living in poverty, or having an extremely hard time. This is when people start to make connections and friendships via the forums, and this leads to meta-gaming.