Guns! An Advance In Technology?

[A Spooky Witch 156]

No - I do not agree with this idea.

 

Why? - It's too modern for the time era that LOTC takes place in. A lot of research and technology does go into developing an actual firearm and let's just face it, gunpowder is hard to come by in the realm of LOTC. Yes we do have cannons, sure people can think "of why don't we make a smaller handheld version of said cannon?" Well the technology just isn't advanced enough for that kind of research. 

 

ON ANOTHER NOTE as people have been saying, this all comes down to lore and the approval of the staff, mainly the Lore Masters and Admins and such. They will always have the final say in this, and from the talks people have supposedly had, there will be no era advancement in LOTC.

 

(sorry, no support to this, hope that was thought out enough for you people)

[Samson Option 9652]

So long as I have my Hwachas, I will be eternally happy.

[PtahWithin 1320]

Since I know people will miss my post, here it is again:

 

 

I will attempt to be more civil than just about everyone else who has posted here, in explaining why the Lore Team and Admin Team would not be willing to allow proper gun technology:

 

First, allow me to address a common response to those who say "No guns allowed!": "Well, look at this fantasy world which happens to have guns in it. It's falacious to think that fantasy and guns are incompatible!" This is correct. However, that is only an argument that applies to fantasy as an entire genre, this leads to the first reason for our opposition:

 

I. Lord of the Craft has cultivated for itself its own brand and style of fantasy. Guns interfere with our brand of the fantastical world we have created, and so are disallowed from existing or being developed.

 

Game of Thrones is a fantasy world. It also does not have guns. The world of Guild Wars 2 is a fantasy world. It does have guns.

 

The only thing which unifies all fantasy worlds is the very quality of them being fantastical: they contain world elements that do not exist in reality. For example, a world based on ancient greek mythology can be rightfully considered a fantasy world: it has all manner of gods and goddessess, mythological creatures, and so forth. However, we would identify a world based on real greek history and culture to be historical fiction, not fantasy.

 

Each fantasy world that exists in books or movies or games has its own limitations on certain real-world elements. This is an intentional design feature that if absent, would cripple some of the carefully chosen fantasy elements that a fantasy world has. Sometimes those are technological barriers: imagine if in Game of Thrones, they learned how to make guns. The entire world would be fundamentally different: even with poor-performing muskets in real life, the moment they began to exist was when warfare took drastic turns. In Game of Thrones, warfare has been relatively the same for over 8000 years. In real human history, that would have been plenty of time for people to advance enough to create guns. George R.R. Martin therefore explicitly chose for his world to be absent of guns.

 

Similarly, the presence of guns or muskets would force our fantasy world to change in a way that would diminish or even negate some very important fantasy elements that we have composed. Sometimes in fantasy this is not a bad thing: plenty of worlds have developed over time and changed drastically through the ages. But many others have not. The staff have decided that Lord of the Craft must remain in the latter group. Our version of fantasy desires lines of warriors and archers, not musketmen and riflemen.

 

II. In all times when guns have been temporarily allowed/tested or used in spite of their banning, they have lead to quite a lot of misuse and abuse.

 

Even when given particular disadvantages and explained limitations, it seems that the playerbase is either incapable or unwilling to abide by them. This is the lesser, but still relevant reason why guns are disallowed on the server. People have fundamental conceptions about guns that, given all present evidence, they refuse to abandon in favor of lore and limitations which would make them compatible with other existing weaponry.

[mmat 7460]

I don't play this server for guns and bombs, simple as that. It's not a case of 'Can we realistically do this?' it's a case of 'What's the point in doing this?'

 

I guess my previous gif-laden post was not of the quality that the glorious FMs require of me. :)

[Lago 2572]

There's no mechanical representation. Before you say "just use bows", might as well call them bows.

[BannanaToYou 196]

quite funny that u thought guns would be a possibility in this fantasy server

[Lago 2572]

That being said, I did like the Thunderbluffs, which were the dwarven /c sear "guns". But no, I can't see guns happening.

[Jistuma 1996]

So, besides the fact that it has been said time and time again that there will not be cannons or muskets in the game, I will give you some of the problems they bring. Let's focus on muskets.

- Preloading: There was a time when there were many problems of preloading crossbows. Preloaded muskets is worse.

- Innacurity: Besides the fact that everyone can be a master sniper, bows and crossbows and muskets are used in roleplay at less than 10 blocks (10 meters or 33 feet), every single time. Normally it's shot at half that distance. If you don't know, missing a person at 10 meters, even with a very innacurate weapon is hard. With a bow, people might miss because they don't know how to let go of the string or can't pull it well because it requires force. With a musket, those problems don't exist.

- Long time reloading: If you haven't noticed, a person running for 30ft, a punch, a wink, and lockpicking a door all take the same time to do in roleplay. In magic this problem was tasked by saying these things are created in X emotes to reload/do magic. A bow normally already takes 3 emotes, and a bow is placing an arrow in a string, pulling and shooting, 3 emotes. Besides the fact that most players wouldn't really know how to properly reload a musket (I'm not so sure myself), it would most likely be placing gunpowder, sliding ball down tube, placing more gunpowder, aim, fire, 5 emotes? Problem is, that's still not slow enough.

- Setting: The fantasy setting on LOTC is one without guns. It's a fantasy setting alike Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones, it has no guns, it has no cannons, it has magic, it has monsters. This is one of the greatest arguments thought, check ptah's post for more.

- Defenses against it: There are none. Against muskets there are no defenses unless you're behind a wall. Shields are useless, armor is useless, and a single bullet can kill you because it either break bones, or stays inside someone. Arrows can be 'easily' removed, a bullet can't.

- Progression: If muskets are accepted, I garrantee it someone else will perfect it. "Jistuma, you can just say no and just accept muskets!", tell that to the dwarves when they made steam boats, and then made a train, and wanted a car, and a steam cannon even. A musket is a tiny cannon, what reason would we have to deny a cannon after accepting a mini cannon?

Now what I say now is something that probably just I think is bad. There is no smart economy in LOTC, because if there was, cannons would probably never be made. Evolution of steam power, of guns, and of other things is based not so much on technology but more on the effect vs the price vs danger. Guns, have a great danger, they blow up in people's faces and break if not made extremelly well. If something like a musket is expensive, is dangerous, is innacurate, and a crossbow has the same effect while being cheaper, safer, and more accurate, why would anyone get a musket? IRL, it was because Armor had improved, and the noise frieghtened the horses, and the noise lowered the moral of the enemy, even if they missed and lost one men with one shot, it would have effect already. Moral like that doesn't exist in LOTC.

[Lark 2227]

Oh one of these again? Yeah, I wish I saw this sooner so I could have warned you. But I guess some people have to learn the hard way about LotC...

 

 

Just like that poor fellow looking for an adunian wife..

[Tadmonster 54]

The way I see it, the only reason to accept guns is from an overwhelming player-base approval. Yet here we have an overwhelming player base opposition. Just because things are sort of conceivable does not mean they exist.

[Blundermore 2741]

 

 

The Lore team has yet to have a real reason as to why not.

Ok lets just stop this here before it gets anymore out of hand, apologies to those of you who are discussing this but the comments are indeed starting to become a bit flame worthy. But I digress.

 

It has come to the attention of the Lore team after careful discussion that this Lore shall be denied.

 

LOTC is a fantasy server, yes, this is true, and indeed, in many "fantasies", muskets, guns, cannons, steampunk etc etc are deemed fantasy like. However, that is the fantasies set down by the creator's of those fantasies. Worlds created by the writer out of their imagination based on how they see the world and what they wish the world to be. 

LOTC however is not one of these fantasies however, LOTC is its own fantasy, with its own governing rules, mythology and technology. A world apart from worlds such as Fable's 2 and 3 or even the real world. 

 

I won't go on to talk about how the nature of muskets will lead on to cannons because real world history dictates that this is what happens, our world is set beyond that of the real world, with its own history and back-story. The progression of technology in the real world does not mean that LOTC must follow a similar line of progression.

 

However, and I must state this clearly, LOTC's fantasy is based around medieval esque tendencies, drawing deeply from such fantasies such as Lord of the Rings by J R R Tolkien or Eragon or Harry Potter or many, many other fantasies. And in this world we call LOTC there is unfortunately no place in this world for cannons, guns, muskets, black powder etc... 

 

Lets be real here, if muskets were to be accepted onto the server we would all of a sudden see everyone running around with one, entire armies would start fielding muskets out of thin air almost as everyone grabs at the new shiny source of power that is guns. It would make Crossbows and bows in general completely redundant, removing the RP that was once there (though little it may be already) and replacing it with gun rp. 

 

We originally removed Gunpowder from LOTC after the introduction of cannons (originally created by the trade nation Alras), however, it was removed after it became apparent that no one had any restraint over their usage and finding of said technology, even though Alras never actually did hand said cannons out to anyone (apart from the specifically broken cannons they made for a certain nation which then went on to say that they fixed the cannons). Effectively many powergamed/metagamed the creation of cannons and it became more of a fad materialistic item to have said weapons in your arsenal as a nation leader or a Guild leader. The same will happen with muskets if they were to be introduced, I've seen it, others have seen it happen before with other things similar to this, muskets are no different. It will just be the same song and dance that will end in exactly the same way as it started, with the removal of said devices. 

I know that I said I wouldn't go on to say that cannons would be reintroduced because of history and all that jaz, but we must also look at the fact that the rediscovery of a substance which catches alight and causes an explosive result could be used (with a heap of the stuff) to remake such things as cannons again, which would be counter productive in what was originally done to remove them in the first place. 

 

Finally, the RP behind muskets, generally the RP for cannons became very much a dull and "dummed down" form of rp when it came to fighting, it wasn't so much if you could hit the target and cause damage it was more when the walls would fall, because cannons are bigger than castle walls, we know this to be true because after their invention the creation of castles nearly ceased to be anyways IRL as it probably would be in our world as well. Muskets, though lengthy in their emote to reload, could have the same result, by simply preloading said device the RP of a person holding amusket would be reduced to two emotes, aim, and fire. And given how everyone is apparently a master marksman no matter the range and are always capable of hitting someone square in the eyes from 200 meters away the musket will not see any sort of downfalls from firing at range. 

 

Your lore is good, I, and the lore team are not putting you down on that. But it is not always how well the lore is written that determines if it will be accepted. Just because someone writes the best lore ever made on the construction and use of bomber planes does not mean that we are inclined to accept said lore, because said example does not fit with LOTC's theme and setting. Unfortunately, like the example given, muskets also do not fit the theme and setting of LOTC. 

 

We thankyou for your contribution, but this lore is unfortunately denied. 

 

I kinda wrote one a couple of months ago thankyou. 

[FireCrimson 109]

Just gonna add that muskets hardly ever shoot straight.  Imagine how hard that would be to decide if it hits, as it isn't something you can affect at all.  In order to actually hit something, without luck, you would need a line of at least 10 people.  And even then, the amount of people you actually hit would be few, unless the enemy kindly situated themselves right in front of you, and waited to get shot.

 

In short, it would be difficult to just find out if it even HITS.

[Omithiel 192]

I think certain type of guns is possible in a fantasy setting, the links below are from a fantasy 2D turn based strategy game I used to play back in the day. The chances of you getting a hit with the weapon is very low in this game. (They are basically the same unit but different ranks, each having their own lore. You can also see other type of units from different races if you want.)

 

http://units.wesnoth.org/1.10/mainline/en_US/Dwarvish%20Thunderer.html

 

http://units.wesnoth.org/1.10/mainline/en_US/Dwarvish%20Thunderguard.html

 

http://units.wesnoth.org/1.10/mainline/en_US/Dwarvish%20Dragonguard.html

[Knightangale 10]

Here is my proposal. Guns, most people would think that guns would be too much for LoTC, Too big of an advancement in technology, but i beg you to read the rest of this.

 

Im not saying we should have full on machine guns, I'm more suggesting a very inaccurate and slow musket. A musket at best would reload in one minute, on average about 1:30. 

 

A gun would also be nice for people who really don't have the time to be a mage and just want that kind of power fast. Adding muskets into the game would separate the magic users who just learned magic and are not truly interested in the void and the ones that are. If there are magic users who are true to their power then they most likely will not go for the gun idea.

 

If anything, a musket is too advanced a gun. Flintlocke pistols/rifles and blunderbusses came first. Blunderbuss was a bit more late in the game because it employed gunpoweder.  Also, Flintlock pistols couldn't be reloaded.

 

Also, this would give rise to gunslinger characters, cowboys, and a bunch of other stuff that divides the theme of the server.

 

If cannons are not lore allowed neither should muskets, let alone flintlocke pistols.

[Draeris 3124]

I think certain type of guns is possible in a fantasy setting, the links below are from a fantasy 2D turn based strategy game I used to play back in the day. The chances of you getting a hit with the weapon is very low in this game. (They are basically the same unit but different ranks, each having their own lore. You can also see other type of units from different races if you want.)

 

http://units.wesnoth.org/1.10/mainline/en_US/Dwarvish%20Thunderer.html

 

http://units.wesnoth.org/1.10/mainline/en_US/Dwarvish%20Thunderguard.html

 

http://units.wesnoth.org/1.10/mainline/en_US/Dwarvish%20Dragonguard.html

 

This could actually be a perfect compromise..