mmat 7460 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Perhaps I can articulate my argument better: The concept of innocent until proven guilty is important in healthy and free societies. If a man is accused of murder, should he be shunned, restricted and imprisoned until he can prove that he has not committed a murder? Or should he be presumed as innocent until he is proven guilty of being a murderer? Should he be free to have his freedom and do as he wishes until and if he is proven to be guilty? I believe this is quite a similar case to how we find ourselves. Should players be immediately seen as immature? Incapable of roleplaying villainy correctly until they post an arbitrary application? Or should they be assumed to be rational mature and free individuals, capable of RPing freely until proven otherwise? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachnun 566 Share Posted April 17, 2015 You didn't respond to my question, I will ask again 501, why should we trust you to moderate this complicated system when you your self said you cannot moderate the blacklist system. You should try managing the easier system before you try managing the harder one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
501warhead 1796 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 -snip- The ideal was that a common/lesser evil application was intended to be easy, quick, and small. Under that logic I was going to spend the week revamping it, making it simple, or even just removing the need for a lesser evil app from the ground up. I agree, the goal was to moderate roleplay not limit it and some of these will limit roleplay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space 2335 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'm sorry, I'm not angry or upset I did, however, hope for this to be a reasonable argument. Thank you for complying with my request however. I'm reading posts. A reasonable argument requires both sides to have valid and reasonable points. The problem is the majority of the server, who don't want VAs, don't see villain roleplay as a problem. I'm not trying to be rude, I think you guys legitimately thought this would be best for the server, but, I really think there is no problem with villain roleplay. But, I will accept your argument that there is a problem with villain roleplay: How do we fix it? 1. Bring back VAs and everything they entail: OOC arguments ((Do you have a VA to do that??)), restriction on roleplay, the partial destruction of moral ambiguity. I honestly don't think give an incentive for you to have a complex villain. Apps =/= complexity. 2. Try to, as GMs, use the blacklist system or ban people who consistently do not RP their villainry better. I think that the problem you guys saw didn't require a complete overhaul of villain RP. It required minor tweakings, not restrictive applications, right? But, I think it is good you are trying to reply to everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priceflash 832 Share Posted April 17, 2015 If the staff can find like, 3 examples of this in the last week or two that warranted this I'd be surprised. It feels like you're trying to solve nothing, yet average modreq wait can still range upwards of an hour. IMO: Remove VATs and ban people who don't follow villain rules. We have rules regarding villainy already, why is this needed? we don't need a blacklist system, if you abuse villainy you should get banned, jesus christ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
osumanduas 1442 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Perhaps I can articulate my argument better: The concept of innocent until proven guilty is important in healthy and free societies. If a man is accused of murder, should he be shunned, restricted and imprisoned until he can prove that he has not committed a murder? Or should he be presumed as innocent until he is proven guilty of being a murderer? Should he be free to have his freedom and do as he wishes until and if he is proven to be guilty. I believe this is quite a similar case to how we find ourselves. Should players be immediately seen as immature? Incapable of roleplaying villainy correctly until they post an arbitrary application? Or should they be assumed to be rational mature and free individuals, capable of RPing freely until proven otherwise? Matty makes a good point here, and almost golden point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archbishop 1784 Share Posted April 17, 2015 1. Seems like a good compromise between the community and the Staff Is completely untrue, Villan RP has been improving under the current blacklist for awhile, same as 4. I repeat, along with everyone else Nobody wants VAs, nor anything to do with any sort of application. and there honestly isn't even a difference between solution 2. and 4, again the community wants neither. ((Edited, btw. Im sorry but explain how when most of oren go around Athera going "You believe in creator?" Player- "No" then they are attacked with one emote then pvp defaulted by them, is good villainous rp? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
501warhead 1796 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 A reasonable argument requires both sides to have valid and reasonable points. The problem is the majority of the server, who don't want VAs, don't see villain roleplay as a problem. I'm not trying to be rude, I think you guys legitimately thought this would be best for the server, but, I really think there is no problem with villain roleplay. But, I will accept your argument that there is a problem with villain roleplay: How do we fix it? 1. Bring back VAs and everything they entail: OOC arguments ((Do you have a VA to do that??)), restriction on roleplay, the partial destruction of moral ambiguity 2. Try to, as GMs, use the blacklist system or ban people who consistently do not RP their villainry better. I think that the problem you guys saw didn't require a complete overhaul of villain RP. It required minor tweakings, not restrictive applications, right? But, I think it is good you are trying to reply to everything. The concern as well was we wanted to introduce some form of validation to villainy roleplay; VAs were the seeming solution to this problem. I still believe with a bit of time it could be fixed although we're beyond what I believe; I will do what is best for the community. The blacklist solves poor villain rp but it does not fix the problem entirely and comes with it's own issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destroyer_Bravo 1054 Share Posted April 17, 2015 What are your qualifications for VAT lead over Benboboy/Geodude/Raelplayer/others who are known as prolific villain rpers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
501warhead 1796 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 Perhaps I can articulate my argument better: The concept of innocent until proven guilty is important in healthy and free societies. If a man is accused of murder, should he be shunned, restricted and imprisoned until he can prove that he has not committed a murder? Or should he be presumed as innocent until he is proven guilty of being a murderer? Should he be free to have his freedom and do as he wishes until and if he is proven to be guilty. I believe this is quite a similar case to how we find ourselves. Should players be immediately seen as immature? Incapable of roleplaying villainy correctly until they post an arbitrary application? Or should they be assumed to be rational mature and free individuals, capable of RPing freely until proven otherwise? That's the concern, no? One thing that the VA system did in the past was the players were acutely aware of the rules; in today's server this is not the case and has caused many problems due to a lot of grey areas. There are however several systems which I proposed which go by your logic of 'They aren't guilty of being poor RPers, why make them do an application?' such as the waver system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachnun 566 Share Posted April 17, 2015 And why will a VA fix that 501, I have been around when we had VAs and that changed nothing. The level and quality of villain rp has been the same as Blacklist, I am not suffering from it and I don't think others are as well. 501 if were going to be honest you and I both know that you have other issues on the server, this should NOT be your focus rn since villain rp is not in a dire situation, the war rules, map, and nexus regions are however. Please just drop this staff should not be focusing on this so don't make them focus on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyndikate 2303 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'm voting 3. Period. The staff team's intentions are good, but your idea of a "solution" is farce at best. You could have simply banned players for toxicity and trolly RP You could have added strict rules that enforce quality of roleplay You could have had gotten competent GMs in enforcing those rules instead of adding more teams that contribute to elitism. But instead, you decided to pull the biggest **** you you could ever pull to your playerbase. Bringing back a system that never worked the first time, especially when staff teams admitted that they were contributing to new player retention shows that your decision making on the matter was impulsive and not thought through. You have shown that you don't even care about player feedback, and pretend to care by posting a "Your View." thread, despite multiple feedback threads stating the same thing. As a result, you have shattered the trust the players had in you. You have caused a rift. Wanna know a better solution than pointless applications? It's simple, staff. Get off your butts and do your jobs as GMs. We wouldn't be having trolls if you started regulating them the day you removed VAs, and banned the trolls from the beginning. You can quit with the Your Views. Most of the are pointless wastes of time and feedback is never considered. Most of us want Nexus regions gone, but instead we got this blatant slap in the face. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
osumanduas 1442 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Im sorry but explain how when most of oren go around Athera going "You believe in creator?" Player- "No" then they are attacked with one emote then pvp defaulted by them, is good villainous rp? You're not even giving decent examples nor addressing any points to help fix the problem. I'd hope you can provide something more to his argument. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
501warhead 1796 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 What are your qualifications for VAT lead over Benboboy/Geodude/Raelplayer/others who are known as prolific villain rpers? The original lead was intended to be Tsuyose who does perform Villain Roleplay in depth. I was being assisted by Raptorious, Urasept, and Menarra. When Tsuyose was promoted I took his stead with their and his assistance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
argonian 14254 Share Posted April 17, 2015 The concern as well was we wanted to introduce some form of validation to villainy roleplay; VAs were the seeming solution to this problem. I still believe with a bit of time it could be fixed although we're beyond what I believe; I will do what is best for the community. The blacklist solves poor villain rp but it does not fix the problem entirely and comes with it's own issues. We have proven with polls that the vast majority of players are against these changes. If the people who actually RP and have to put up with bad villain RP(wherever it is) are against these changes, then you aren't helping anyone. You are not doing what's best for the community. You are bringing changes that the community did not ask for or want and now you are refusing to revert them after the community has shown you just how much we oppose them. You are helping no one with these changes. If you cared about the community you wouldn't be forcing through changes that the vast majority of us don't want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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