[Meta] Church Overhaul

[Malaise 1570]

The anti-Canonism arguments have some good ethos.

 

The Human Church is a well-founded, substance filled community in its own right. But, it is undeniable that there is no real backing (in role-play) for its merits and beliefs. Yes, the Wandering Wizard was a prophet of the Creator, but that was quite some time ago, and he is no longer around to preach about the Creator's doings. However, the Aspects grant Druidism. Metztli grants moongazing. Hell, even big bad dragons like Mordring and Azdromoth grant their own blessings. 

 

Obviously, a lot of the Church community are not too fond of the higher, more extreme fantasy aspects of other religions; but these "other" religions provide a more interactive, rewarding religion to practice. I myself, even being a long-time human role-player, preferring it over all other races, hardly participate in the church because I am a Christian in real life, and choose not to practice a similar religion on The Lord of The Craft. I've come here for fantasy and something unique. That being said, the Church of The Canon does have its own unique themes and pieces, but it is undeniably heavily built upon existing real world theological practices. There are Cardinals. Abbots. Deacons. Even Nuns. 

 

My suggestion is to adopt a new, more original and fantastic theme. New wave Owynism, perhaps. I know the "ooga booga burn churchies" thing didn't go well, but it could easily be re-done.

 

That's my two cents.

[argonian 14254]

On 7/18/2016 at 9:33 PM, Matt_dew said:

The anti-Canonism arguments have some good ethos.

 

The Human Church is a well-founded, substance filled community in its own right. But, it is undeniable that there is no real backing (in role-play) for its merits and beliefs. Yes, the Wandering Wizard was a prophet of the Creator, but that was quite some time ago, and he is no longer around to preach about the Creator's doings. However, the Aspects grant Druidism. Metztli grants moongazing. Hell, even big bad dragons like Mordring and Azdromoth grant their own blessings. 

The Wandering Wizard isn't around anymore, sure, but most Elves still remember him and the Humans have no reason to doubt what all their ancestors knew to be true. Also, it makes no sense for the other races to doubt what the Wandering Wizard said about God when they believe all the stuff he said about the four brothers and Iblees, etc. The Canonist faith and what the Wandering Wizard told the Descendent race have plenty of proof too. It was proven that Iblees was real, had cursed the races, and had been banished to the Void just like Availer said when Iblees returned in Aegis. The Aspects and Metztli are no more than mere Aengudaemons, like Availer was, so they in no way contradict Availer's story or the Canonist faith.

[Medvekoma 2073]

Just now, James2k said:

The Wandering Wizard isn't around anymore, sure, but most Elves still remember him and the Humans have no reason to doubt what all their ancestors knew to be true. Also, it makes no sense for the other races to doubt what the Wandering Wizard said about God when they believe all the stuff he said about the four brothers and Iblees, etc. The Canonist faith and what the Wandering Wizard told the Descendent race have plenty of proof too. It was proven that Iblees was really, had cursed the races, and had been banished to the Void just like Availer said when Iblees returned in Aegis. The Aspects and Metztli are no more than mere Aengudaemons, like Availer was, so they in no way contradict Availer's story or the Canonist faith.

 

Still, one religion provides counsel and inter-religion politics with "promises" and "background lore" while others teach magic, have their deities appear and address believers and such. That's one huge downside for canonism right now, I agree with that observation.

[TeaLulu 1783]

1 hour ago, Jistuma said:

What? What does anyone playing deities has to do with their existance? Aenguls and Daemons have ALWAYs shown their power and themselves in LOTC universe, the Creator? Never. The point of the existance of the Creator was done by the Wandering Wizard, as you said, and he's the only Aengul to ever state that.

 

My point though, is: "Why should I worship that god, when this god gives me magic and talks to me?"

Actually the Arcane Mage Slayer who was (legit approved at the time by Availer) a ******* Daemon also confirmed the existence of the Creator in Aegis.

 

Just because you don't like the narrative that the early staff of the server promoted doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Same for any RP that happened when Mogroka was an admin and did some (probably sketchy) stuff and alluded more to the Creator's existence, also with all the stuff with the scrolls, etc.

I don't want to derail this thread but why can magic groups claim that "this magic was RPed in Aegis/Asulon/(days before Lore Team founding/retconning everything) so it should be accepted as it has already been roleplayed", but the religious groups which follow the Creator can't? Legit. That's messed up. I know its 90% because the lore team does and always has disagreed with the whole "God/Creator" concept.

FULL DISCLOSURE:: I have always been against Aengudaemons APPEARATING and interacting DIRECTLY with the world and god forbid SPEAKING to people. It's stupid. It's dumb. It's a great way for a single individual to help improve RP in a biased and OP way for their one group, because "Oh look I'm an Aengul and you're all my worshippers now let's chat and have tea, I am OP and powerful and REEEAAAAL now do my bidding."

Back on topic, I don't think a crusade should be forced to make the Church relevant; Nor does there need to be the Creator frickin' appearating in the sky or anything.

 

I think that not the Church specifically, but humans in general, should be catered to event wise same as many other magical groups are, and part of the event/storyline creation should involve their lore, or some aspect of it, which includes their religion. Human lore does contain their main religion, even if it has changed over the years, even if the Creator is "unconfirmed", because it has been RPed for so so so long.

At the same time, while ET should be doing more of that, players can be doing more too; Write lore relating to some extent to the religion (Ancient heroes/knights/monks/priests/early worshippers and their relics, including people who were player characters; utilize the legends stuff I tried to make that hasn't been embraced and I/ET will make events around it...), write event proposals, etc.

 

Ofc you cannot base a group's activity solely around events but really the humans in general are somewhat neglected event wise especially storyline event wise and I'd like to see if that can't be improved come 5.0

[argonian 14254]

3 minutes ago, TeaLulu said:

Actually the Arcane Mage Slayer who was (legit approved at the time by Availer) a ******* Daemon also confirmed the existence of the Creator in Aegis.

 

Just because you don't like the narrative that the early staff of the server promoted doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The staff over the last few years have really loved retconning everything from Aegis. Originally, the Verge was in the same world as Aegis(the druids had sailed there and then made a portal to shorten future journeys), then later on they made it so that the Verge was actually in a different dimension or some BS. They also retconned all Aengudaemonic lore in general. Fitting their new lore to the old lore would be too much effort, so instead they contradict and retcon old lore at will and expect us to just go along with it. Them trying to pretend like the Creator's existence was never confirmed is just the tip of the iceberg here.

[Will (TauFirewarrior) 2466]

21 minutes ago, Freya  said:

 

90%~ of the server's lore is copied from a trope or just carbon copied from another source. There's nothing really wrong with that, no point reinventing the wheel if it's already been perfected by other (non)fiction sources.

 

I like the church being non-magical and purely faith based. It's the only religious group on the server that doesn't have magical roots. If I suddenly up and went "Wow aengudaemonic magic is so [insert fantasy universe]" then people would be equally insulted.

 

Also the church structure works fine; the only issues are 1. it's not really many peoples cup of tea and 2. it's difficult creating content for a group when you don't have an intrinsic and eternal goal for every member (Druids: get magic, Paladins: forge the Ashbringer or what have you and learn magic, etc...)

 

All it needs is a clean start on 5.0 and it'll be gucci, in my own opinion.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be purely faith based. I said I had no problems with its scripture, only its structure and its appearance and how they try to preach. I'm saying to reorganize the structure and give it some originality. 

[yopplwasupxxx 5946]

1 hour ago, Alterazgohg said:

Owynist reform?

O W Y N I S M
W
Y
N
I
S
M

[AlmondTree 418]

2 hours ago, Heff said:

Oh so you'e saying because ET and GMs do special little events were they can become gods by playing their deities that it means they must be worshipped? The Creator was always used as the main source of creation in LOTC up until this and the past map where the staff attempted to shoehorn in and play their own deities, claiming that The Wandering Wizard was probably wrong. Just because your own religion has some special snowflake staff rewards doesn't mean its any better than the ones that have been put so much time into by players since the start of the server. 

 

 

[Quavinir_Twiceborn 1050]

I myself will say, the current structure, and appearance to the curch of Oren I currently greatly dislike...

 

About a year ago (Maybe 2 actually?) in Athera, I played a deacon of the church, and began to look into the roleplay and such behind it all. I legitimately wanted to see what all the hubbub about the church of the Cannonist faith was about...

 

And to be fair, I was disappointed. There were lines in RP books directly plagiarized from IRL books. (For example, lines taken from Dante's inferno, and I believe  I saw some bible verses simply with the nouns changed.) Things didnt add up with the religeon, and I felt overall as an IRL christian kinda cheated by this religeon. It felt like it was trying to have substance where there was none, making christianity without a christ. The church of Oren has had alot of IRL catholic traditions appear,yet with none of the development, or theological progression to such traditions. And from what I can tell, simply appeared one day.

 

My negativity to the church of Oren has been caused likewise by many of the 'Creator fearing' groups on the server, and their exploits. And given, while I understand that in IRL medieval times there were any terrible 'Christian' groups whom did unspeakable things, it was still jarring to see the White Rose in their time, using editted nazi works (LITERALLY, THINK OF THAT FOR A SECOND. EDITTED NAZI LITERATURE.), or the german space marines who killed heretics who did such in the name of the church/Creator. (and the EMPERAH!) 

 

Even though thats greatly in the past, it still leaves a nasty OOC taste in my mouth. And this is ontop of the unoriginality, on top of the plagiarism, on top of the emptiness.

 

I'd... heed a bit of what everyone is saying about giving some originality. I mean, really. Look at the elder scrolls, look at dragon age, and Guild Wars, WoW, I mean... there're so many ways to do this church thing, and here its just... so stunted and unoriginal...

 

And to be fair even a tad offensive. Again,a  church/religeon related group and nazi propoganda? Taking IRL biblical scriptures and church related iconography, contorting them, and literally making a quasi-christianity without a Christ? I mean... Come on. I've spoken to respected christian friends about this, and almost all of them just cringe and make unhappy sounds. I understand its fun to play a rascist, a homophobe, a crusader with no care for the lives of others (And yes, I understand these were the ideologies of european christians in the related time periods). But jeeze... Could you atleast make something up original for your reasoning for that?

[Birdnerdy 1539]

43 minutes ago, Quavinir_Twiceborn said:

I myself will say, the current structure, and appearance to the curch of Oren I currently greatly dislike...

 

About a year ago (Maybe 2 actually?) in Athera, I played a deacon of the church, and began to look into the roleplay and such behind it all. I legitimately wanted to see what all the hubbub about the church of the Cannonist faith was about...

 

And to be fair, I was disappointed. There were lines in RP books directly plagiarized from IRL books. (For example, lines taken from Dante's inferno, and I believe  I saw some bible verses simply with the nouns changed.) Things didnt add up with the religeon, and I felt overall as an IRL christian kinda cheated by this religeon. It felt like it was trying to have substance where there was none, making christianity without a christ. The church of Oren has had alot of IRL catholic traditions appear,yet with none of the development, or theological progression to such traditions. And from what I can tell, simply appeared one day.

 

My negativity to the church of Oren has been caused likewise by many of the 'Creator fearing' groups on the server, and their exploits. And given, while I understand that in IRL medieval times there were any terrible 'Christian' groups whom did unspeakable things, it was still jarring to see the White Rose in their time, using editted nazi works (LITERALLY, THINK OF THAT FOR A SECOND. EDITTED NAZI LITERATURE.), or the german space marines who killed heretics who did such in the name of the church/Creator. (and the EMPERAH!) 

 

Even though thats greatly in the past, it still leaves a nasty OOC taste in my mouth. And this is ontop of the unoriginality, on top of the plagiarism, on top of the emptiness.

 

I'd... heed a bit of what everyone is saying about giving some originality. I mean, really. Look at the elder scrolls, look at dragon age, and Guild Wars, WoW, I mean... there're so many ways to do this church thing, and here its just... so stunted and unoriginal...

 

 

  Hide contents

And to be fair even a tad offensive. Again,a  church/religeon related group and nazi propoganda? Taking IRL biblical scriptures and church related iconography, contorting them, and literally making a quasi-christianity without a Christ? I mean... Come on. I've spoken to respected christian friends about this, and almost all of them just cringe and make unhappy sounds. I understand its fun to play a rascist, a homophobe, a crusader with no care for the lives of others (And yes, I understand these were the ideologies of european christians in the related time periods). But jeeze... Could you atleast make something up original for your reasoning for that?

 

implying anything on good lotc (magics included) is in any way original

[Quavinir_Twiceborn 1050]

38 minutes ago, Birdnerdy said:

implying anything on good lotc (magics included) is in any way original

I say such because yes, there is a good deal of original things on LOTC.

 

These range from our different kinds ofmagical creatures, many of the environments created, to individual characters. There is originality on LOTC.

 

 

[Imam Faiz Kharadeen 3167]

the rightly guided faith is the true faith!!!

[Heff 2460]

2 hours ago, Quavinir_Twiceborn said:

I myself will say, the current structure, and appearance to the curch of Oren I currently greatly dislike...

 

About a year ago (Maybe 2 actually?) in Athera, I played a deacon of the church, and began to look into the roleplay and such behind it all. I legitimately wanted to see what all the hubbub about the church of the Cannonist faith was about...

 

And to be fair, I was disappointed. There were lines in RP books directly plagiarized from IRL books. (For example, lines taken from Dante's inferno, and I believe  I saw some bible verses simply with the nouns changed.) Things didnt add up with the religeon, and I felt overall as an IRL christian kinda cheated by this religeon. It felt like it was trying to have substance where there was none, making christianity without a christ. The church of Oren has had alot of IRL catholic traditions appear,yet with none of the development, or theological progression to such traditions. And from what I can tell, simply appeared one day.

 

My negativity to the church of Oren has been caused likewise by many of the 'Creator fearing' groups on the server, and their exploits. And given, while I understand that in IRL medieval times there were any terrible 'Christian' groups whom did unspeakable things, it was still jarring to see the White Rose in their time, using editted nazi works (LITERALLY, THINK OF THAT FOR A SECOND. EDITTED NAZI LITERATURE.), or the german space marines who killed heretics who did such in the name of the church/Creator. (and the EMPERAH!) 

 

Even though thats greatly in the past, it still leaves a nasty OOC taste in my mouth. And this is ontop of the unoriginality, on top of the plagiarism, on top of the emptiness.

 

I'd... heed a bit of what everyone is saying about giving some originality. I mean, really. Look at the elder scrolls, look at dragon age, and Guild Wars, WoW, I mean... there're so many ways to do this church thing, and here its just... so stunted and unoriginal...

 

 

  Hide contents

And to be fair even a tad offensive. Again,a  church/religeon related group and nazi propoganda? Taking IRL biblical scriptures and church related iconography, contorting them, and literally making a quasi-christianity without a Christ? I mean... Come on. I've spoken to respected christian friends about this, and almost all of them just cringe and make unhappy sounds. I understand its fun to play a rascist, a homophobe, a crusader with no care for the lives of others (And yes, I understand these were the ideologies of european christians in the related time periods). But jeeze... Could you atleast make something up original for your reasoning for that?

 

2 years ago, the Canonist faith hadn't even taken its current form yet. Your "RP books" have been replaced with a good 3 years of writing and working together of scripture. Your claims that our Church is copied directly from Catholicism (@TAU) are not unfounded, however if one were to delve deeper there are clear influences from the other Christian sects and even Judaism, to simply generalize and say we have copied our structure from Catholicism is false. Our governing system is akin to it yes, but it also makes sense in roleplay when lined up with the Feudalistic Society of Oren.

[Hiebe 2493]

Ya'll need andraste 

[Mithradites 1168]

What you guys need is a form of magic, I reckon. That always inspires interest. Issue is, Creator isn't a source of magic, so maybe some canonist-friendly Aengul is in order? Aengul of righteousness? Fortitude?