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[✗] [Lore Proposal] The Dragon's Curse


Demotheus
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The Dragon's Curse

 

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~ "Like the Great Green Dragon on the mount up high coiled around it's hoard of treasure, so help the one who tries to take what is precious to that forgetful nymph." ~

 

Overview

 

Those afflicted with the Dragon's Curse, herein referred to simply as; "The Cursed", are sentient people who have befallen a terrible fate at the hands of a twisted spirit. They are able to process incoming sensory information far more effectively than ordinary descendants by far and as an extension of this they have supreme reflexes. They are individuals who truly live in the present moments and have no concerns for the tragedies of the past nor the perils of the future. Once in a while, depending on certain circumstances, they can throw off the shackles of their sub-conscious and perform amazing feats that most cannot, simply because there is a fairly high chance that they'd end up hurting themselves. This unknown spirit was fond of the double edged sword, after all. These boons do not come with pitfalls, rather, the curses come with these terrible side effects.

 

They are care free and from the outside, appear to have wildly heightened senses and ungodly reaction time, yet they cannot remember the past and they cannot plan for the future. They can only live in their present situation and once that instance has come to close, in the vast majority of cases, it's consumed by the fire in their soul. This means that they concern themselves only with the present. They will typically never be able to remember conversations, treasured memories with loved ones, or anything that is tied down to the time line. They can only remember few things, like pointed facts, skills they've learned, who they are, vague goals like finding a home or something to eat, and their hoard. Their hoard is the worst part of all of this. Their hoard is something filled with anything from physical objects, to the few people they remember by claiming them as their own in some way. Only through threat to their hoard may they summon the strength to smash the chains that hold them and keep them safe from their own actions. Should anyone commit offense to their hoard, such as taking or harming something in it, the offender may incur their Dragon's Fury.

 

Their eyes shift into something terrible and reptilian in appearance and their heart pounds in their chest as their body temperature skyrockets to a degree which could cause steam to rise from their body and pour from their mouth and nose as they breathed. They lose their sub conscious restrictions that hold them back, but also the ones that keep them safe from themselves. They may be able to cave a skull in with a single punch, but are just as likely to break their fingers in the process. They can cast whatever magic they know without hindrance, but may easily find themselves comatose for weeks afterwards. It does not matter, however. They are consumed with only one thing; protecting their hoard and ensuring that the offender is never again able to offend it. 

 

Thus, The Cursed live unaware of their own anguish. Rendered sociopathic, caring only for what is happening in the now and that which is apart of their hoard. Unable to even remember their own past, their family and friends from before they were cursed.

 

 

Becoming Cursed

 

Initially, only one person has been Cursed by the twisted spirit to date and so only can that one individual can spread this terrible affliction. There is no agenda behind spreading it. Should someone be unlucky enough to become apart of The Cursed's hoard there may come a time when The Cursed worries that this person will disappear from their Hoard entirely. Depending on the circumstances and how The Cursed views that person they may decide to afflict them with their curse. This ensures that person will never leave their hoard for as long as they live as their memory will be obliterated and the first thing that will remain with them is their Parent. Oftentimes this change is not willing, but forced upon the Cursee. The only thing The Cursed need do is touch their target and imprint onto them. It only needs to be bare flesh. At that moment a magical sigil will be stained onto that flesh of a dragon-like eye which, as the coming elven week progresses, becomes more and more prominent, starting only as a feint mark. Only someone who has been Cursed for many years may be able to curse new people as well.

 

Upon being cursed the changes begin to happen over the course of an elven week. This week is one of suffering and stress. Your memories do not just fade away, but instead fall apart. A good example of this is if the cursed has a lover they will begin to forget parts of that person, and not simply have the memory fade away all at once. They will be well aware that everything about that person is falling apart, bit by bit, in their mind. Perhaps it starts with their name, or their face becomes blurry and hard to recall. Perhaps precious memories with this person are lost, often in parts. Until the process is complete, forgetting is the most painful torture one could ever experience. It would seem that the entire purpose of forgetting in this way is to make it as slow and agonizing as possible. Most people in such a circumstance would rather commit suicide at some point during this time then continue on living with the knowledge that everything and everyone and every memory they ever cherished will soon enough be destroyed, consumed by the 'Dragon'.

 

During this first elven week of agony the curse can be lifted however it's unknown how it is done. Being that it is neither holy or dark magic, neither have any way to break the curse. It is not something from the void either, and so warding of the arcane variety will not work. It is more akin to some kind of shamanism, as it is a spirit's power that is being channeled. One who can ward against such power could do the trick, however there is a far easier way. The flesh that which is marked with the sigil of the dragon's eye can simply be carved out down to, but not including, the muscle beneath. However, any damage that was done will not be undone so easily. The memories are not lost completely! They would be able to be recovered with the assistance of a mental mage, or some method similar to this. Perhaps a shamanistic ritual would suffice as well, depending on the spirit bargained with of course.

 

Should the afflicted stick it out, or simply are unable to draw the connections needed to seek help or to harm themselves, at the end of the elven week of transformation their memories will be lost forever, with no possibility of being reclaimed. There is no known way of undoing the curse after that point, not that the new Cursed would bother trying to do so in the first place. In the same moment their memories are consumed forever they would feel a profound sense of relief as their final memory, the memory of having lost all other memories, is consumed, as with almost all others to come.

 

 

The Aftermath and the Formation of the Hoard

 

After the passing of the first trial will come a second year of development for The Cursed. They now possess the ability to process information that pours through their senses far more effectively than most anybody else. The grass is not greener, yet they can realize every blade of it at once that they can see. They cannot hear farther or better, but rather hear and point out a pin dropping in a crowded tavern. They can learn skills more efficiently as they can pick up every nuance about what they are doing as well, though in the future they'd never be able to speak of where they learned how to do something or cast some magic. Most importantly, they begin to form their cornerstone. This is the first part of their hoard, and it will be the largest. This is what grounds them. Without this they would have no purpose. Most of the rest of their hoard will be based around this cornerstone. While eventually something within their hoard that is lost may be forgotten, this will never leave. It is never an object, but a concept of sorts. It's largely influenced by what they most experience in the coming year. Most wood elven Cursed would for example claim nature as their cornerstone. A human may claim their city, or kingdom, and exhibit some of the most incredible patriotism ever seen. Whatever it is, it gives that Cursed some form of purpose - which is to protect it and ensure it is never 'taken' from them.

 

They would find themselves highly attached to the one who Cursed them, which is the intention of that person anyway. They would see the original Cursed as an Authority of sorts, or a guardian. So too, would anyone they cursed down the line - forming a chain of command of sorts, albeit informal. They aren't quite slaves, however. On top of that, the Cursed would typically only want to demand things of their 'children' that would benefit them and their fellows as a whole. Finding land to live on, acquiring more for their hoard, helping each other, etc. They would not seek to have their "underlings" attack people for no reason. If they did, it's because someone's hoard was offended by such person. Thus, forming a loose cult of sorts.

 

 

Living in the Moment

 

The simplest way to describe the memory problems is that they live only in the moment and situation which has their attention at present. That being said they do hold on to some things. Their hoard, being chief among them. Following that are their skills, their name, who they are, and over a long period of time they will come to know their Curse to a degree. The things they can certainly never remember, nor ever add them to their hoard, are things related to periods of time. They will never be able to recall the conversation they had finished a moment ago, whether it's with someone in their Hoard or otherwise. They won't remember that a war had recently torn through a town. They can only make the assumption that something horrid had happened there. They can remember places, how to get to them, and what they look like but never can they remember when they got there nor what happened when they did. They can remember laws and similar facts but cannot remember the faces and names of the majority of those they meet or hear about. They can remember how to connect to the void, cast a fireball, or raise the dead - but they will never remember who or under what circumstances they learned how to perform these acts. Finally, they can remember only a sparse handful of people that they add to their Hoard.

 

The Cursed would remember other people and associate them subconsciously with certain feelings and similarly they would associate them consciously with certain descriptors. Such as this person is a thief, this person is a guard, this person is a powerful mage, etc. They will never be able to put a finger on how or why they know and feel these things, since they cannot remember ever speaking to them. They remember people similarly to how they remember locations and cities. If the Cursed falls in love with someone, they have added that person to their hoard. They still can't remember why they feel that way but only know that they want that person around more often than others. The relationship would be difficult to sustain because precious memories shared between the two would be one sided, conversations would never be recalled. Furthermore, the Cursed is a possessive soul by nature. While not a total sociopath, they may become violent more easily than other lovers would in circumstances such as adultery, abandonment, etc.

 

 

The Dragon's Fury

 

Her eyes widened as she witnessed it. The bandit reached into the chest in the far side of her room and retrieved something of hers from it. A plain silver dagger, with it's only uniqueness being a slight curve in the blade. Those same eyes shifted into something terrible and reptilian, the cold winter air around her condensed as her body heat rose with the pounding of her heart causing steam to rise from her flesh and pour from her mouth with every wrath filled breath. She threw off her restrictions and caught him by surprise. With a roar filled with rage she swung her mace into the side of his head, obliterating all within it with a sickening crunch signaling that the thief was no more. She stomped to her precious treasure and retrieved it, calming herself with it's touch. She laid it to rest where it had been taken and hissed as she suddenly felt the pain in her arm from the mighty swing. She looked into the mirror on the dresser to see the remnants of her fury fade away form her eyes, returning to normal.

 

The Dragon's Fury is simple. It is not as magical as one might think. The Curse simply allows the Cursed to throw off the bounds that restrict the abilities and strength everybody has to protect what is theirs. This is where the curse burns brightest in their soul, and it is manifested through their eyes through the shift into something like a dragon. Their body surges with adrenaline and their heart pounds to circulate the blood needed to sustain the sudden requirement of strength. They will not stop until they are either incapacitated, dead, or they have righted the wrong they see against their hoard. This usually means the offender being killed. Indeed, under the influence of the Curse's full power they are fearsome opponents, yet they oppose themselves as well.

 

The Curse allows them to access their full potential, whatever that may be, at a given time. This is done by tearing apart the restrictions of the sub conscious mind through a surge of adrenaline and a little work from the curse's part. These restrictions are meant to stay, however. They're to protect the person from harming themselves. Sure, everybody has the ability to lift a horse over their head but their muscles will tear at some point or their backs will give out. That's why we, in most circumstances, cannot do that. A single blow may be all it takes from a Dragon Cursed to put someone down for the count, either temporarily or for good, but it could also harm themselves, by possible breaking a bone in their fist, or pulling a muscle, or simply missing and smashing into a stone wall. Furthermore, the Cursed's safety is of less concern to them than usual. They will defend themselves and try not to be harmed to a degree if only to ensure with their own eyes the offender is taken down. They don't think far enough ahead to realize others may come to their defense, or the damage they could do to their own reputation without ever being able to remember it. Furthermore, it's uses the bodies resources rapidly. Depending on how long they are under the influence they may be barely able to crawl, let alone walk, away. Their first priority would be to find sustenance and water, typically. Unless it's handled relatively quickly, they'd be hurting all over as if they'd worked out for hours, and unable to act upon much for at least an elven day.

 

Finally, this is the only other example of a time when something can be remembered. If someone provokes a Cursed's Dragon Fury they will be burned into their memory until they are either brought to their death or make amends with the Cursed somehow, or an elven week has passed. They remember it very vividly as well as exactly what the offense to their hoard was. Upon resolving the 'issue' that person would be forgotten completely as well as the knowledge that someone had affected their hoard in someway would be discarded.

 

 

Mechanics

 

This is entirely in role play. There's no need for any fancy mechanics. The most one would need is a suit of iron armor and weapon to represent their increased strength during Dragon's Fury in mechanical PVP if it's necessary.

 

 

Pros and Cons

 

Pros:

-Increased bandwidth available due to not worrying about the past, planning for the present, or hanging on to the vast majority of memories. Thus, far more brain power is allocated to perceiving senses. Note it does not extend their range or anything. Simply, one can understand what is going on amidst chaos more readily than others and thus have quicker reactions. They can pick apart what they're sensing far more efficiently than others.

-Able to throw off the restrictions that hold a normal person's natural ability back, including strength, stamina, etc. under specific circumstances.

-Few worries if any at any given time. One will be hard pressed to find a depressed Dragon Cursed.

-Are able to learn skills a little faster as a result of being able to focus more on them than others can, due to no other thoughts getting in the way. (Magic not included due to it's different nature.)

-You'll never tire of a good book. You can for example read a book endlessly until it's finished, close it and entirely forget about it, then read it again just as happy to do so as you were the first time.

 

Cons:

-You are unable to recall anything that is attached to a specific time. If something is considered in the past you cannot remember it, unless it is apart of your hoard. You can remember how to do things, but not how you learned to do things. You cannot remember conversations. You cannot remember an old lover. So on and so forth. You can remember where places are and directions and such to get there. But if you come across that place one day and it's destroyed that place is no longer relevant to you. The city it was is now in the past, and you can't recall even the name of the pile of rubble you stare upon.

-Your increased strength does not come with increased constitution. You can break yourself as easily as you can break others. In fact, it's likely. The restrictions that hold you back are the ones that also keep you safe.

-If you are struck with Dragon's Fury if it's not concluded within about 5 or 10 in character minutes you'll find yourself barely conscious, and sometimes may slip into a coma for some time. Upon waking and recovering you're in immense pain from both any injuries you sustained as well as the strain you put your body through.

-You have little control over when you provoke Dragon's Fury. If a hoard of orcs steals from your hoard or harms someone in your hoard you will have to try to fight them off. Very little can convince you otherwise. Your strength and prowess in your skills being unhindered can only take you so far.

-You may collapse from exhaustion if nothing pulls you from a good book or something.

-You can't form any meaningful relationship with anybody. People in your hoard are not loved, but coveted. It is greed that drives you to seek them out and protect them, not love. At best, someone could be in love with you. Never the other way around, nor mutually. Though you can always pretend.

-Your race does not change. You're not given immortality. In fact, only someone completely mad would seek this curse. You essentially get to have greater clarity of the senses, with less filtering than most people and occasional bursts of strength in exchange for possibly the worst mental disorder you could ever get. Upon getting this Curse any ability to remember why you wanted it in the first place is gone. Unless you're looking for the extra push to commit suicide in the next year of agony after being cursed, anyway.

-Being taught something like magic or sword play after being Cursed is a very one sided effort on the part of the Teacher. You aren't likely to remember the teacher, nor your appointments. They have to seek you out. While you can remember that someone is your teacher, you aren't usually going to seek them out yourself, since you are concerned with the present, not the learnings of the future, for the most part.

 

Redlines

 

- This does not grant immortality, nor does it change you into a dragon, should you be cursed. The only changes are when you have enacted Dragon's Fury - the eyes, and the dragon eye mark from when you were cursed in the first place.

- Remembering parts of a conversation that you've had before, or an event that requires a time be placed to it, etc. Is metagaming on your part. You can only know what is related to your current situation and you forget it quickly if it loses relevance. You could be in mid conversation with someone, see something outside that pulls your attention away, and in that time completely forget what you were talking about. You won't be able to remember any kind of event such as witnessing a robbery or murder unless it has direct relation to your hoard, as listed above regarding that.

- Your senses are NOT heightened. You brain just has way more bandwidth available and allocated to processing the senses than other people, since you don't remember anything, worry about anything, etc. You are completely consumed by the present.

- You cannot use Dragon's Fury to defend yourself unless you happened to already be in such a state while you are being attacked.

- You cannot add yourself to your own hoard to get around the above rule.

- Your character is forced into mild sociopathy if they're cursed. They do not usually care about anyone outside of their hoard very much, and even when they add someone to their hoard it can be a possessive love. That being said, unless your character was already one of those cold, heartless calculating types before they were cursed they would not likely become as such after being cursed.

- You are not a dragon, part dragon, or anything like that. The spirit that cursed you wanted a theme of dragons, but did not have the power required to make you able to turn into anything like that. So he improvised. No tail. No scales. No breathing fire. No wings. Claws. Etc. (Unless you already have these features otherwise of course).

- You are not made immortal. This is not an immortality ticket, like certain other curses out there.

 

 

More Possible Traits

 

These are just some 'extra' ideas since some have suggested I add more traits to this. These are things that are not included as of yet, but people can decide whether or not they'd be a good fit, etc. I'll be adding as I go. Feel free to suggest things to add to this list of possible additions. This stuff isn't written in yet, so unless a LM would like to see one of these added to the proposed lore, it probably won't go into it.

 

1. Control over and some resistance to fire. This would not include voidal fire for either control or resistance. Only natural fire. The resistance would not be foolproof. They can spend a small amount of time in an inferno, for example, without their person burning. Eventually they're resistance will find a threshold where it is no longer effective, however. They will start to burn slowly, but surely. They could also control fire, depending on how long they've been Dragon Cursed. They may not conjure it within their belly and expel it as dragon breath or anything like that. It's more shamanistic in nature. Control of what is already there.

 

2. Heightened regeneration. While not more durable, they may recover from their injuries a little faster. Fractured bones may meld themselves back together more quickly, once set of course. Cuts will heal over more smoothly. However, limbs will not regenerate. The injuries are not healed over rapidly. If you're disemboweled, lest there is immediate medical attention, you're probably dead. There would still be a long healing time for various injuries, just a bit faster and more effective is all. In a world where most people go the monks to get instahealed anyway, this probably isn't that big of a bonus.

 

3.

 

 

 

 

Questions And Answers

 

Q: RP ideas that are about avoiding RP aren't good ideas, such as this being centered around avoiding people. ((paraphrase. Can't figure out how to bring quotes from other people onto the OP.))

 

Well, I should clarify somewhere then that they aren't about avoiding people. It's just that they can't remember them. They have no problems walking into a bar and talking to a bunch of people. Their problem is remembering who they are and what was said. As for being selfish, they aren't selfish 24/7. Or at least, they don't come across as such. Most people, so long as they don't mess with their hoard, would view them as completely normal people other than the whole forgets everything all the time thing. And it's not as if their hoard is hanging off them like jewelry. It's usually hidden, save for maybe a lucky pair of underwear or something like that. The only thing they don't hide as much is the people they've "claimed".

 

And, they aren't psychopathic. They're sociopathic as a byproduct. If they could remember people they might end up caring about them. But they can't. They don't use the people in their Hoard to further their goals, because they have none. Even when someone is in their Hoard they can't remember their conversations. All they know is that they want that person, more or less. 

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I was surprised to find that this is fairly well written, I recommend you add a pros and cons list though.

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This actually seems like a decent RP idea! I like the fact that you put redlined for things you can't do. I'd be excited to see this RP idea in the server!

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9 minutes ago, Aerial "The Wroth" Kebabu said:

I was surprised to find that this is fairly well written, I recommend you add a pros and cons list though.

Updated with this suggestion!

7 minutes ago, Malgonious said:

Over-powered.

Elaborate please?

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I can't say this is bad lore, not at all. The necessity of equal exchange seems mostly fulfilled and the lore itself doesn't incite a greater change, like other Dragon-relative character-transformative pieces of canon.

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Having fully read it now I feel as though this is a cheap rendition of dragon lore since it's blatantly a psychopathic creature/brain-enhanced creature that doesn't appear to have much of a purpose and their creator and intentions are still unapparent. I'm confused about what exactly the intention is, the meaning behind it all asides from empowering the character. It seems to make little sense whatsoever.

 

tl;dr add more traits and remove them having to be centered on selfishness and avoiding people, avoidance doesn't create meaningful rp.

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After reading this I actually found this an interesting proposal

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2 minutes ago, Aerial "The Wroth" Kebabu said:

Having fully read it now I feel as though this is a cheap rendition of dragon lore since it's blatantly a psychopathic creature/brain-enhanced creature that doesn't appear to have much of a purpose and their creator and intentions are still unapparent. I'm confused about what exactly the intention is, the meaning behind it all asides from empowering the character. It seems to make little sense whatsoever.

 

tl;dr add more traits and remove them having to be centered on selfishness and avoiding people, avoidance doesn't create meaningful rp.

Well, I should clarify somewhere then that they aren't about avoiding people. It's just that they can't remember them. They have no problems walking into a bar and talking to a bunch of people. Their problem is remembering who they are and what was said. As for being selfish, they aren't selfish 24/7. Or at least, they don't come across as such. Most people, so long as they don't mess with their hoard, would view them as completely normal people other than the whole forgets everything all the time thing. And it's not as if their hoard is hanging off them like jewelry. It's usually hidden, save for maybe a lucky pair of underwear or something like that. The only thing they don't hide as much is the people they've "claimed".

 

And, they aren't psychopathic. They're sociopathic as a byproduct. If they could remember people they might end up caring about them. But they can't. They don't use the people in their Hoard to further their goals, because they have none. Even when someone is in their Hoard they can't remember their conversations. All they know is that they want that person, more or less. 

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Just now, Demotheus said:

Well, I should clarify somewhere then that they aren't about avoiding people. It's just that they can't remember them. They have no problems walking into a bar and talking to a bunch of people. Their problem is remembering who they are and what was said.

 

Having a character who can't form meaningful, long lasting relationships with other characters isn't really a good way to achieve meaningful roleplay. Even if they can interact with people, these cursed would never grow as characters or become something interesting for the player base to interact with if they have no way to recall all those things that make us humans, human. Cutting them off from the ability to normally interface with other characters makes them too neutral of a character for their part in the world to mean anything. I'd recommend re-thinking this point, simply to allow potential players to apply some kind of character growth to their characters. Otherwise you may end up with some very bland characters.

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Just now, Dio said:

 

Having a character who can't form meaningful, long lasting relationships with other characters isn't really a good way to achieve meaningful roleplay. Even if they can interact with people, these cursed would never grow as characters or become something interesting for the player base to interact with if they have no way to recall all those things that make us humans, human. Cutting them off from the ability to normally interface with other characters makes them too neutral of a character for their part in the world to mean anything. I'd recommend re-thinking this point, simply to allow potential players to apply some kind of character growth to their characters. Otherwise you may end up with some very bland characters.

 

An alternative could be that to have someone in one's hoard could easily be actual love then, since it's not uncommon for those who love someone to hurt that person in certain circumstances. (romantic or otherwise). Being overbearing and such. I'm thinking back on it now and I don't know why exactly I have people and faces and such to be forgotten regularly as well...probably because of my idea with the hoard in the first place.

 

Is it better to be able to remember the faces/names and associate a feeling from the sub conscious with that person, but they are still (as the memories pertain most to time are lost) unable to recall why they feel this way. Such as because of conversations, etc. They just do. Much more than that defeats the concept of the lore entirely.  

Just now, AGiantPie said:

Looks impractical to Rp.

Is it for the same reason as the person I just quoted above?

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Just now, Demotheus said:

Is it for the same reason as the person I just quoted above?

No, it's a combination of "no real person can actually have this mindset realistically (and thereby can't actually portray a person with this trait)" and "you don't actually need this lore to have memory problems and be a suicidal maniac." The only thing this adds is the supposed heightened senses which I find extremely medically dubious but we're fantasy I guess so it gets a pass. Heightened senses aren't really something you can Rp reasonably though either except saying "oh Im a better swordsman because my senses are heightened" or whatever else.

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Just now, AGiantPie said:

No, it's a combination of "no real person can actually have this mindset realistically (and thereby can't actually portray a person with this trait)" and "you don't actually need this lore to have memory problems and be a suicidal maniac." The only thing this adds is the supposed heightened senses which I find extremely medically dubious but we're fantasy I guess so it gets a pass. Heightened senses aren't really something you can Rp reasonably though either except saying "oh Im a better swordsman because my senses are heightened" or whatever else.

 

It's hard to justify the hoard mindset without some outside influence. It's not just the forgetfulness. You aren't a better swordsman because your senses are heightened. You are able to react to things more easily because you hear/see them coming. But that's not the only part about the heightened senses. It's not heightened senses, it's just the brain being able to pick the information apart more effectively, wherein usually the brain filters out a lot.

 

Furthermore, what exactly do you mean by mindset? What part of this mindset can people not have? I'm not sure I understand.

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15 minutes ago, Demotheus said:

An alternative could be that to have someone in one's hoard could easily be actual love then, since it's not uncommon for those who love someone to hurt that person in certain circumstances. (romantic or otherwise). Being overbearing and such. I'm thinking back on it now and I don't know why exactly I have people and faces and such to be forgotten regularly as well...probably because of my idea with the hoard in the first place.

 

Is it better to be able to remember the faces/names and associate a feeling from the sub conscious with that person, but they are still (as the memories pertain most to time are lost) unable to recall why they feel this way. Such as because of conversations, etc. They just do. Much more than that defeats the concept of the lore entirely.

That sounds better, and I particularly like the idea of love towards members of ones' own hoard; I could see that evolving into a cult if the right stimuli was given, or at the very least, a family beyond blood ties. That kind of roleplay would be quite neat to see on the server. And the association from sub-conscious also sounds like a step in the right direction, makes them less a blank slate and more like. . . pack beasts, which is the kind of thing you want, but it would hopefully provide some better roleplay. Maybe if they interacted with certain people over certain issues time and time again, those issues would become associated with that person?

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