[Community Review] Raids

[Narthok 10416]

5 minutes ago, Jaeden said:

 

I'll PM you later today with the coordinates and rough time (and the IGNs). About to hit the hay.

god bless

8 minutes ago, Gladuos said:

Nah I don't want there to be big RP fights between more than 10 people, I understand that's not possible. I'm thinking it's better off if combats don't occur outside of warclaims beyond that number because PVP presents more problems (in my experience and to what I want out of LotC) than it solves. To me, combat which results in character development and enjoyment is the roleplay kind. Not mechanical. Warclaims have side-effects in roleplay due to the system allowing tiles to be conquered, and the sheer size involved with them, but it's still just you clicking at each other while the act is happening. No creative writing, or roleplaying there.

creativity is birthed from context and mechanical conflict spawned from rp context gives even more excellent context with which to be creative. The human playerbase probably houses some of the most interesting narratives and highest quality writers merely because of its fidelity to resolving conflicts and moving forward grand player driven narratives rather than focusing on more individual affairs. 

[Archbishop 1784]

1 minute ago, Gladuos said:

I dunno maybe because it's an incredibly long process that's a huge pain in the ass to argue why people should be banned when you'd rather just forget about it and move on with your life. It's so commonplace that you'd be spending a LOT of time filling out ban reports and debating on them for every single memey PVP goon that comes to raid weekly. It's better if the rules are just structured to not encourage that.

Hey I mean if you want this problem fixed but are unwilling to do anything about it then you are a part of this problem are you not?

[Gladuos 869]

1 minute ago, HolyTortoise said:

Hey I mean if you want this problem fixed but are unwilling to do anything about it then you are a part of this problem are you not?

Nope, you're a problem if you imply it's easier to report individual players repeatedly with a huge workload (which whether you want to admit it or not is going to bog down anything from possibly actually being resolved) as opposed to fixing the problem at its root source. Not fixing it for its side effects.

[Narthok 10416]

11 minutes ago, Helios_ said:

Change the raid minumum number, 2 people is pretty damn low as is and it sorta unrealistically sets an ooc number for rp instances. Less rules and less gm involvement means more rp sense to actions done by players.

 

OOC RULES SHOULD NOT DETERMINE WHAT GOES ON IN RP, IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE FOR A 4 MAN GROUP TO LEAVE BEHIND 2 PEOPLE BECAUSE OF MAGIC RAID NUMBER.

Hm, that being said I have no intention of watching people endlessly harass a player group merely to ruin their roleplay. Raid minimums are in place for a reason because too many pvpers couldn't run with a good thing. 

 

3 minutes ago, Gladuos said:

I dunno maybe because it's an incredibly long process that's a huge pain in the ass to argue why people should be banned when you'd rather just forget about it and move on with your life. It's so commonplace that you'd be spending a LOT of time filling out ban reports and debating on them for every single memey PVP goon that comes to raid weekly. It's better if the rules are just structured to not encourage that.

Take the screencaps and send them to me, no report required. ?

13 minutes ago, JuliusAakerlund said:

Historical arguments for a game such as Minecraft in how you are supposed to keep afloat a series of systems of fairness is nearly always redundant. When you say that siege weapons like siege ladders and rams were used in Raids historically you aren't wrong, yet historically there was hundreds of disadvantages to being a raider or mercenary. Nearly all of which are entirely non existant on LoTC, in real life raiders would be a vast minority and their equipment was not always but nearly always a great deal worse than that of the nation armies. There was an understanding between raiders/waymen/bandits and the state, that if they oversteped certain boundries (like attacking a city) they'd be rooted out. They'd be destroyed and killed and since in real life when you're dead the problem is solved, this allowed states to manage the amount of harassment they got against them on this front.

 

Yet on LoTC none of these systems exists, you have endless lives, endless equipment and all of it is equal if not sometimes even skewed in the favour of raiders. If you warclaim a raider/mercenary group they can just make a new base, freebuild lets it happen with no problems at all. If they uphold honorary PK they can just make new characters and 95% of the time they won't PK. Yet when they kill anyone of stature on the other side they always want them to PK, raiders can focus down specific communities endlessly yet there is no punishment.

 

Then you complain about the people that have no way to go against raiders trying to defend themselves by building walls, which mind you walls were quite literally an invention for that very same purpose. When it comes to your other points there can be arguments made in favour and against, but honestly keep the historical "accuracy" of warfare out of LoTC. If we were historically accurate then warfare would be really ******* boring and you'd need to have logistics divisions, armour divisions, supply trains, vast strategic planning, your state economy would take massive dips. Not to include the thousands of other parts to warfare.

 

@Narthok

 

TL:DR Minecraft is Minecraft not real life.

And I acknowledge the difference between the two. That being said the removal of bureaucratic barriers to organic and dynamic rp are one of my primary concerns. What i've tried to do with the systems proposed is enable nations to both strike back against raiders and give raiders some consequences and vulnerabilities whilst raiding. Their characters may not die but i'm fairly sure they'll be miffed when their pvp fort gets sacked and they lose all their pixel loot.

2 minutes ago, Gladuos said:

Nope, you're a problem if you imply it's easier to report individual players repeatedly with a huge workload (which whether you want to admit it or not is going to bog down anything from possibly actually being resolved) as opposed to fixing the problem at its root source. Not fixing it for its side effects.

 get smart or get banned

[Gladuos 869]

5 minutes ago, Narthok said:

creativity is birthed from context and mechanical conflict spawned from rp context gives even more excellent context with which to be creative. The human playerbase probably houses some of the most interesting narratives and highest quality writers merely because of its fidelity to resolving conflicts and moving forward grand player driven narratives rather than focusing on more individual affairs. 

Whatever man. You can say clicking someone while not actually writing anything is roleplay all you want, I just don't think it is. It's the easy solution for concluding conflict rather than the complex (and interesting in my opinion) one. I don't find PVP enjoyable at all, and my laptop+skills are not apt for being able to do so on an equal playing field. I come to LotC for roleplay and creative writing, not PVPing and farming pixels. I haven't been involved with the human playerbase since Anthos so I wouldn't know about your claim.

[JuliusAakerlund 2402]

1 minute ago, Narthok said:

Hm, that being said I have no intention of watching people endlessly harass a player group merely to ruin their roleplay. Raid minimums are in place for a reason because too many pvpers couldn't run with a good thing. 

 

Take the screencaps and send them to me, no report required. ?

And I acknowledge the difference between the two. That being said the removal of bureaucratic barriers to organic and dynamic rp are one of my primary concerns. What i've tried to do with the systems proposed is enable nations to both strike back against raiders and give raiders some consequences and vulnerabilities whilst raiding. Their characters may not die but i'm fairly sure they'll be miffed when their pvp fort gets sacked and they lose all their pixel loot.

 

I mean that would be implying they haven't already moved all their loot already and the fact that making a new fort takes at most 2 hours for any decent raider group. I don't really think the comparison exists, especially when more conflict usually only benefits raiders.

[The Templar 195]

Alright so.. After reading through this? I'm left speechless. @Gladuos has already said it far more eloquently, and far less abusively, than I ever could. I'm here for RP. I have always been here for RP. These proposed rules do nothing but encourage PVP factions, and I'm honestly disappointed that we're going back to the bad old days of minimal RP. 

[Narthok 10416]

1 minute ago, Gladuos said:

Whatever man. You can say clicking someone while not actually writing anything is roleplay all you want, I just don't think it is. It's the easy solution for concluding conflict rather than the complex (and interesting in my opinion) one. I don't find PVP enjoyable at all, and my laptop+skills are not apt for being able to do so on an equal playing field. I come to LotC for roleplay and creative writing, not PVPing and farming pixels. I haven't been involved with the human playerbase since Anthos so I wouldn't know about your claim.

Go click on my profile then come back and talk to me about not writing anything in or about roleplay. 

 

1 minute ago, JuliusAakerlund said:

 

I mean that would be implying they haven't already moved all their loot already and the fact that making a new fort takes at most 2 hours for any decent raider group. I don't really think the comparison exists, especially when more conflict usually only benefits raiders.

Yes but does a fort constitute a major freebuild or settlement

Just now, The Templar said:

Alright so.. After reading through this? I'm left speechless. @Gladuos has already said it far more eloquently, and far less abusively, than I ever could. I'm here for RP. I have always been here for RP. These proposed rules do nothing but encourage PVP factions, and I'm honestly disappointed that we're going back to the bad old days of minimal RP. 

I don't know where y'all are getting that argument. The server as it is caters massively towards your style of approaching it. even this proposal makes a number of concessions towards hardcore rpers. Lotc is a dynamic experience where your environment is affected by other players. I don't understand why you would want to play it if you don't want to interact with people outside of your clique. If you have a problem with memey rp bandits and raiders then report them and they'll be dealt with. This endless complaining about pvpers is just as irritatingly opaque as pvpers making fun of elves for being erpers. 

[Ducklingator 795]

49 minutes ago, Narthok said:

These rules are very balanced? Defenders get relatively fair rewards for warding off a raid and are now able to retaliate against a point of origin rather than watch a band of goons fade off into the mist on their meme jihadi characters.

 Forts are very easily replaceable for people who meme and don't put any actual time into roleplay and places. Besides, my argument is that this essentially kills any chance RPers have at defending against those types of raids; as a guy with a computer that physically cannot handle PvP, and going off of the assumption that I'm not the only one who experiences this problem, there's definitely a problem when you force PvP on every single raid, and then punish people for faiing to defend. (And yeah, I get that huge RP fights are terrible; I get that, in general, CRP is a shitty system that leaves everyone unhappy at the end of the day. But instead of working around it, try to fix THAT dysfunctional system.)

[Gladuos 869]

5 minutes ago, Narthok said:

Go click on my profile then come back and talk to me about not writing anything in or about roleplay.

I don't remember claiming you didn't write anything in or about roleplay. I'm saying PVP, in my experience, is highly unenjoyable and an irritating distraction from the roleplay I enjoy. There's no writing involved with PVP*, it's at best a fade to black for conflict. Might as well roll randomly and FTB in an emote to the same effect. I'm not even against conflict and contrary to your assumptions earlier, I don't just do magic training or tavern RP (which I find disrespectfully passive aggressive).

[JuliusAakerlund 2402]

1 minute ago, Narthok said:

Go click on my profile then come back and talk to me about not writing anything in or about roleplay. 

 

Yes but does a fort constitute a major freebuild or settlement

 

Not at all, but the point I was making is that raids and warfare are heavily favoured towards raiders as opposed to the settlements. This is something which would mean that a majority has less power to deal with a minority, in essence a lot of raiding basically comes down to if the raiders want to be good sports or not. If they want to ruin your RP and literally just stay around for months and harass your IRP they will and they can and there's nothing you cna do about it. IT's this sense of helplessness that has genuine RPers miffed about the situation, it's also the reason why a lot of these rules that can easily be abused aren't looked well upon.

[The Templar 195]

11 minutes ago, Narthok said:

Go click on my profile then come back and talk to me about not writing anything in or about roleplay. 

 

Yes but does a fort constitute a major freebuild or settlement

I don't know where y'all are getting that argument. The server as it is caters massively towards your style of approaching it. even this proposal makes a number of concessions towards hardcore rpers. Lotc is a dynamic experience where your environment is affected by other players. I don't understand why you would want to play it if you don't want to interact with people outside of your clique. If you have a problem with memey rp bandits and raiders then report them and they'll be dealt with. This endless complaining about pvpers is just as irritatingly opaque as pvpers making fun of elves for being erpers. 

I am not against my experience being affected by other players, please do not put words in my mouth. I am against a return to the period of PVP dominance of Anthos/Fringe/Thales/Athera/Vailor where the RP was as low effort as could be. Where your only value to a nation was in how good your PC was for clickyclickylookmomimwinning. I interact with people outside of my clique quite a bit, and even go into the opposing side to understand why they RP the way they do. My problem is with people whose idea of a good time is running in and ruining mine with a random raid, stealing what i have on me that may have taken months to obtain, in 5 minutes or less. Now you want them to be able to rip open the chests I've purposefully left my valuables in to steal and sell on the auction for vastly inflated sums of petty cash? 

You talk of concessions, but you're not making any that matter. You're giving all power to the folks who are here specifically for the pvp combat once again.

Belated edit: The "Raids make RP" argument doesn't hold water considering they kill everyone to begin with. The losing side has everything effectively voided, plus a loss of what they had on their personage with no explanation. Nice. 

[neopsychedelia 207]

22 minutes ago, Narthok said:

If you have a problem with memey rp bandits and raiders then report them and they'll be dealt with. This endless complaining about pvpers is just as irritatingly opaque as pvpers making fun of elves for being erpers. 

It's difficult to build a case against people whose characters are motivated from an ill-intentioned OOC place. This combined with how lenient (or aloof) staff have been in regards to this behavior in the past means that a lot of people, including myself would rather not have to deal with the burden of presenting these issues. Frankly, it should be the place of the moderators to take initiative in these situations where they're able, and leave the example that they actually do care about having these problems resolved. Until then, I think it's entirely inappropriate to suggest these cumulative changes in the community's current overall social climate.

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

@Narthok how many people need to tell you the same thing before we get upgraded from some insignificant group of screamers who just don't *GET IT*

 

We all read your rules and we dont like them.

 

Raids should never be mini warclaims and you will get pushback until raid caps are reestablished at the VERY least.

[Narthok 10416]

31 minutes ago, Gladuos said:

I don't remember claiming you didn't write anything in or about roleplay. I'm saying PVP, in my experience, is highly unenjoyable and an irritating distraction from the roleplay I enjoy. There's no writing involved with PVP*, it's at best a fade to black for conflict. Might as well roll randomly and FTB in an emote to the same effect. I'm not even against conflict and contrary to your assumptions earlier, I don't just do magic training or tavern RP (which I find disrespectfully passive aggressive).

I do apologize for the assumptions. Trying to pump out responses as fast as possible.  

 

33 minutes ago, SuperDuckyGamer said:

 Forts are very easily replaceable for people who meme and don't put any actual time into roleplay and places. Besides, my argument is that this essentially kills any chance RPers have at defending against those types of raids; as a guy with a computer that physically cannot handle PvP, and going off of the assumption that I'm not the only one who experiences this problem, there's definitely a problem when you force PvP on every single raid, and then punish people for faiing to defend. (And yeah, I get that huge RP fights are terrible; I get that, in general, CRP is a shitty system that leaves everyone unhappy at the end of the day. But instead of working around it, try to fix THAT dysfunctional system.)

I play on an 7 year old mac that can barely run chrome. I also pvp with a trackpad. I think your issue is less your hardware and more you not wanting to lose. Wood elves are literally the most populous nation on the server and should be able to repel any raid thrown at them, certainly with an hour of time to prepare. 

 

29 minutes ago, The Templar said:

I am not against my experience being affected by other players, please do not put words in my mouth. I am against a return to the period of PVP dominance of Anthos/Fringe/Thales/Athera/Vailor where the RP was as low effort as could be. Where your only value to a nation was in how good your PC was for clickyclickylookmomimwinning. I interact with people outside of my clique quite a bit, and even go into the opposing side to understand why they RP the way they do. My problem is with people whose idea of a good time is running in and ruining mine with a random raid, stealing what i have on me that may have taken months to obtain, in 5 minutes or less. Now you want them to be able to rip open the chests I've purposefully left my valuables in to steal and sell on the auction for vastly inflated sums of petty cash? 

You talk of concessions, but you're not making any that matter. You're giving all power to the folks who are here specifically for the pvp combat once again.

Raids as they are puts all the power in the hands of the attackers. These amendments give some concessions to defenders, especially those willing to occasionally rally and fend off raiders. A consistent complain I saw during my data collection was how there was no way to punish raiders since if you win you couldn't conquer them and if you won the raid they'd just come back and harass you. These are my attempts to solve that complaint.

 

35 minutes ago, JuliusAakerlund said:

 

Not at all, but the point I was making is that raids and warfare are heavily favoured towards raiders as opposed to the settlements. This is something which would mean that a majority has less power to deal with a minority, in essence a lot of raiding basically comes down to if the raiders want to be good sports or not. If they want to ruin your RP and literally just stay around for months and harass your IRP they will and they can and there's nothing you cna do about it. IT's this sense of helplessness that has genuine RPers miffed about the situation, it's also the reason why a lot of these rules that can easily be abused aren't looked well upon.

Which rules can be easily abused? I made man yof them with the intention of negating that overwhelming raider advantage and ennabling settlements some time to prepare themselves adequately. 

18 minutes ago, neopsychedelia said:

It's difficult to build a case against people whose characters are motivated from an ill-intentioned OOC place. This combined with how lenient (or aloof) staff have been in regards to this behavior in the past means that a lot of people, including myself would rather not have to deal with the burden of presenting these issues. Frankly, it should be the place of the moderators to take initiative in these situations where they're able, and leave the example that they actually do care about having these problems resolved. Until then, I think it's entirely inappropriate to suggest these cumulative changes in the community's current overall social climate.

Completely agree, we as moderators need to be taking a more proactive role in removing these kinds of players from the service. 

 

15 minutes ago, WuHanXianShi14 said:

@Narthok how many people need to tell you the same thing before we get upgraded from some insignificant group of screamers who just don't *GET IT*

 

We all read your rules and we dont like them.

 

Raids should never be mini warclaims and you will get pushback until raid caps are reestablished at the VERY least.

Contrary to your belief Leo there are a decent number of people who have commented herein expressing approval or offering improvements on what has been initially offered. But once again hyperbolic statements are the key to forwarding a constructive dialog. I am more than willing to remove / amend / reword / add anything that players deem necessary and have already state several times that I will be change or adding player suggestions. I don't really know what else I can offer beyond that as it seems like you are being antagonistic merely for the sake of being antagonistic rather than constructive.