[Community Review] Raids

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

@Narthok don't use my playerbase as a means to justify yourself

 

1) sure, wood elves have a large rally. Many others don't, and will be fucked by constant raids where they're outnumbered like jollybee said.

 

2) we could rally 30 to fight off a big raiding party, but those are bordering on warclaim numbers and last for multiple hours (1 hour for rallying, potential 1-2 additional hours of fighting) Raids should NOT be warclaims or last that long. Especially if you can't win and are stuck doing it once every 2 days.

 

Please try again 

[Chimp 528]

45 minutes ago, WuHanXianShi14 said:

@Narthok how many people need to tell you the same thing before we get upgraded from some insignificant group of screamers who just don't *GET IT*

 

We all read your rules and we dont like them.

 

Raids should never be mini warclaims and you will get pushback until raid caps are reestablished at the VERY least.

Honestly, stop. I've genuinely only seen the same 3-4 or maybe 5 people say they either did not like them or did not like some of them. Stop acting like everyone on lotc said no, you alone have been pretty much the most vocal that you disagree in this thread alone. I think what we need is a poll, clear and cut. So that we can have a true idea of how many want it or not. I'm not even a big pvp or raid fan but i think the rules narthok made with some tweaks would be nice. OOC walls and rules suck ass. If your goal is to have realistic RP and a rp centered environment then fine. However in that case it would mean that all the ooc bullshit that prevent people from doing IRP things oughta go as well. And so irp i should be allowed to ride down to a town and completely burn it down or conquer it without any forms of warning. Tbh i'd LOVE that.

[Narthok 10416]

7 minutes ago, The Templar said:

I'll be sending screenshots directly to you when these things happen, then. 

[Chimp 528]

4 minutes ago, Narthok said:

dont remove raid caps just put it at 1000 that way they cant complain about there being no raid cap

[Guest]

There should be a raid cap. If you want more people, make a warclaim.

[Narthok 10416]

14 minutes ago, NotEvilAtAll said:

With these rules, Dunshire would be dead. All it would take is 2-3 raids going in to smash the few locked chests we have and the entire halfling race would stop playing. Nobody wants to restock the entire village storage from scratch, and any more than the occasional storage-wipe really hurts the village morale and roleplay.

 

Also, if raiders can capture people they clicked to death just as easily as if they had gone through an hour long roleplay fight, it removes any roleplay behind capturing people. All you’d need to do is click down their leaders and prominent players in a raid, capture them, and watch as their activity dies.

Have you ever moderated crp? Watching two 15 year olds argue over wrestling moves and anatomy is the opposite of good roleplay. Again to raid you almost have to be affiliated with a large group. And literally no one has any beef with the halflings. Furthermore you have taken steps in advance to be protected by the orcs. And if you don't think the orcs would rally to defend you I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. 

 

11 minutes ago, WuHanXianShi14 said:

@Narthok don't use my playerbase as a means to justify yourself

 

1) sure, wood elves have a large rally. Many others don't, and will be fucked by constant raids where they're outnumbered like jollybee said.

 

2) we could rally 30 to fight off a big raiding party, but those are bordering on warclaim numbers and last for multiple hours (1 hour for rallying, potential 1-2 additional hours of fighting) Raids should NOT be warclaims or last that long. Especially if you can't win and are stuck doing it once every 2 days.

 

Please try again 

These groups are either not visible enough to be raided due to the restrictions upon raiders. And furthermore should factions incapable of defending themselves despite visibility remain independent?  And to 'fight off' a big raiding party you'd be doing it once every 2 weeks, or 3 if you decided to counter raid. 2 hours every 2 weeks does not seem like an unreasonable time investment.

[L0rdLawyer 2272]

Tbh, didn't I give @Fireheart of the modified raid rules that fit the interest of the war chat already to get feedback? I think I did. Time to dig.

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

10 minutes ago, Narthok said:

 

These groups are either not visible enough to be raided due to the restrictions upon raiders.

Never doubt someones ability to be bored enough to find someone to annoy.

 

Quote

And furthermore should factions incapable of defending themselves despite visibility remain independent? 

What a backwards and shitty attitude, there are much better ways for small settlements to survive or be absorbed than by subjecting them to shitty raids every 2 days until they no longer want to log on. You think they'll say "Sure let's move to Oren" if that happens to them, or will they just leave?

[Narthok 10416]

2 hours ago, Viltaren said:

I am the minister of law in Sutica, and I help our nation lead with a lot of diplomacy and responding to threats and issue that arise in the city. So what I say here I say as someone who heavily assists in the guiding of an established nation with not the most effective guardforce.
@Narthok

Section 1.0 Raid Procedure

1.1 To initiate a raid the leader of a raiding party must modreq one hour in advance of the raid

The handling GM must then provide a warning regional broadcast to the target. The raid will arrive one hour from the broadcast not from the posting of the modreq.
 

I really enjoy this modification to the rules. I believe, if we are allowed to rally people to defend the nation in an hour off of the broadcast, we can actually organize a defense. In addition, it would incentivise us to seek alliances with other nations. We aim for neutrality, but deals where we have paid other parties for defense have worked out well for us. This also creates rp for our nation and theirs. 

 

1.4 Any individual that is downed during the duration of a raid (within the confines of the raided settlement and its immediacy) may be captured even if they are popped or D40. To do so make a modreq while providing a screencap of the individual being downed, ideally accompanied by a timestamp

I do not enjoy this aspect nearly as much. This can cripple nations by having a leader forcibly taken. That may be the point, but politics are a dangerous and stressful balance already. I believe this may invite a situation where soft coups are enacted by dealing with foreign parties to raid and target a leader. In addition, it could lead to situations where raiding parties try and force PK on nation leads. It would also allow slaving parties to come on and ransack a cities rp simply due to an ooc grudge for much longer than the 2 hours you have stated.
 

1.5 Any individual that is downed during the duration of the raid (within the confines of the raided settlement and its immediacy) may have their head or body taken without consent.

NPCS may be made of an individual to represent them having been executed. Or a head can be requested of a moderator without the need for player consent.

 

What I want to know with this is how do we interact with our own bodies in rp? We are already told we are not allowed to recognise we died in rp, and it is a warnnable offense if a person recognises their own death. With this in mind, how are we to respond to reports of our own bodies or seeing our own bodies?

 

 

 

2.3 Battering Rams may be purchased at the Cloud Temple for (15000 minas for heavy or 7500 for light) or From a Moderator for (60 iron blocks or 30 iron blocks). The Battering Ram kit will resemble the tent kit. The Ram comes in the heavy (with arrow shield) or light (without shield) variants.

 

I believe these are not expensive enough. Mina is too easy to earn. 15000 minas is common to have, and not a great loss if people grind out the hunting grounds. In addition to this, can the ram be moved? What if there are multiple gates in succession? What of properly rped and prepared boiling oil let out into a gateway? If its prepared, can it be used for defense?

In addition to this, 

Once the raid has begun the supervising moderator will alert both sides that PvP is now ‘on’. PvP remains ‘on’ until the moderator specifically alerts the leadership of the offensive and defensive party.

 

This removes the point of having any skilled rp warriors. It also enables PVP goons to pretend to rp for the sake of complying to rules while still only seeking to profit and cause grief. This also disables inbuilt defenses against raiders, in cases such as limited escapable lava traps meant to be used to deter raiders. 

 

2.4 Any chest within the confines of the raided settlement may be broken open by the victorious offensive party provided the appropriate destructive emote is provided. Rolling is not required.

This allows the mass theft and stealing of a nation. In a nation such as sutica, a successful raid would see us ransacked and in danger of losing all active players as they lose all possessions and belongings. And beyond players, there is the fact that if there is no limit, no emote, no roll needed to ransack, it is a simple matter to just break into a cities storage, destroy all chests, and let an entire nations building supplies and food despawn on the floor. There needs to be some sort of protective factor, or you enable rule protected griefing on a level that could destroy a nation in a single raid. 

 

 

 

4.1 There is no limit on numbers for any offensive or defensive raid action.

4.2 If the aggressors are victorious the settlement’s raid cooldown shall be Forty Eight Hours from the beginning of the raid

 

I believe there should be somewhat of a limit in place. This invites warclaims without the paperwork. With no limit, it is entirely possible for a plan to be put in place where 20-30 plus players are gathered by a group of nations, then taken on a raid to a single nation they dont agree with, or want crippled or gone. Then, without the fairness and rules of the war claims, they can steamroll a nation and cause irreparable damage to a nation for the sake of  an ooc grudge or simple removal of competition. It would be mostly impossible to gain a defending force strong enough to manage the attackers 20-30 strong raid group in the span of a single hour. With no limit, it is a warclaim, without having to claim.
 

 

4.3 If the defenders are victorious the settlement’s raid cooldown shall be Fourteen Days from the day of the raid.

4.5 If the defenders are victorious in both repulsing the first raid and in the retaliatory raid then the settlement’s raid cooldown shall be Twenty One Days.

 

I do enjoy this, but in order to be an action taken, there needs to be a safety from CB. Bigger nations with stronger pvpers can win wars against weaker nations. But, if a weaker nation defends, and then retaliates, then the bigger nation has rights to CB. Then they can simply force war, and then destroy the weaker nation with no repercussions. THey could even intentionally lose to bait out a retaliation and a CB with it.

 

 

5.1 A raid is defined as a hostile action committed by an organized group, launched from a point of origin.

To secure the benefits and such of a raid the above definition must be fulfilled and overseen by a Moderator.

 

I would like to see this be a nation or specific group of origin. As in, not just a raid camp down the way, but something that invites politics and diplomacy.
 

5.3 A group of Villains operating within the walls or the immediate surroundings (50 blocks from the walls) will be considered an illegal raid if their numbers exceed three.

All instigators of illegal raiding shall be Villainy Blacklisted. The leader / high ranking of the party shall receive a double sentence.

5.4 You may not instigate a raid if there are fewer than three people in the city at the time of the GM going to broadcast.

To clarify when the GM accepts the modreq and goes to perform the warning broadcast if there are less than three people within the city then the raid may not be performed.

 

I very much enjoy both of these protections. It is something that is very needed. Off hours are off hours. In sutica we have 15-20 people rping in the city with regularity, but when its off hours, not many are there. And that's fine for our activity, but it feels really scummy.

 

That's all I have to comment on for now, but I very eagerly look to your response @Narthok

1.1 Yeet

1.4 This is being amended to any individual that is not popped / bled out. Again this seems more like something to be solved rply. As for your slaving parties concern I feel that is adequately addressed by restrictions on raiders.

1.5 Unsure to be honest. Perhaps roleplay the consequences of dying. I hold my highest respect for those players with pk clauses who pk even if the manner of death is unfavourable.

 

2.3 I'd be fine with increasing the prices, I'll not lie I have no idea about the current value of the minas to speak on values with any level of expertise. My baseline for rams is 'reasonably pricey but not beyond affordability'.

 

2.4 Hide your chests, hire mercs, lock your doors, actually rally and repel raiders etc. Rp solutions to rp problems.

 

4.2 again you can't just raid for ooc grudges there needs to be demonstrated allegiances and reasons, that's stated in the post. I really do want to atleast test uncapped as I feel its one of the worst part of the current rules. 

 

4.3 if you're being raided by a nation you've got other things to worry about beyond the giving of CBs realities of rp > ooc barriers again. 

 

5.1 we defined it as a major freebuild or nation settlement already

 

 

 

 

 

[L0rdLawyer 2272]

I did lol.

? I was just waiting for GM feedback. Lol.

 

Raid Rules

The raid rules follow the community guidelines.

 

An attack on a settlement by four or more players is known as a raid. Camping a settlement with 3 players or less will be considered a raid if deemed so by the Game Moderator. If all parties agree (defenders and attackers) then they may establish their own rules for a raid and teleportation use. Internal conflicts within a settlement are not classified as raids but what defines this will be determined by a Game Moderator should issues arise.

 

Before beginning a raid you must use /modreq to inform the moderation team of the Raid beginning. All that’s required is the modreq to be filed - after it has been created you can proceed with the Raid with or without moderator supervision. An example looks like this: “/modreq I am raiding Town A with 8 players and I, John Doe, will be leading the raid.” The modreq must include your RP name, numbers with you, and who you are raiding.

 

Raiding

Killing, robbing, or causing chaos. A maximum of 8 players may participate on the attacking side in such a raid. The raiding party must begin fighting within 30 minutes of arriving. A raid may last up to 45 minutes, then you must leave.

 

Lawless Raiding may have a maximum of 18 players on Nations if 24 hour notice is given in advance by using /modreq to place down a sign. The sign will indicate a 1 hour possible range for this to occur (Example: 6PM - 7PM). All raid times will be set in EST as standard. Normal raid rules apply and cooldowns are still enforced. 24 Hour Notices may not be placed well a settlement is still on cooldown.

 

Rescue Raiding

A Rescue Raid is a raid to free a high-ranking official of a nation/settlement captured by another group (PROs, ROs, and officials on the settlement's forum page). Raiders may bring 20 players to attend the rescue where they may use TNT and ladders if necessary. Once they arrive at the settlement the raiding party has one hour to rescue the captured official. This raid may last for 1 hour and 30 minutes, once this time has been reached, the conflict is deemed null and no longer active.

• Raid must present evidence to a Game Moderator—how they know the official is captured and where they are held.

  • Sufficient in-character knowledge of the officials whereabouts is required.

• Mercenaries and allies are allowed with sufficient roleplay. You must present proof of payment to mercenaries (shown to a Game Moderator); allies are allowed so long as the alliance is documented on the forums.

• Participants of a rescue raid must live in an area controlled by the settlement of the captured official.

• Mechanics-combat must only follow after sufficient roleplay. In other words, attempt to negotiate, intimidate, bargain—and only if all else fails may combat begin.

 

 

Raid Cooldowns

You may not attack a settlement for 4 days following a lawless raid. This cooldown is lowered to 3 days following a lawless raid that had a 24 hour notice. Defenders must make a /modreq within two hours of the raid finishing to have a sign placed indicating when a raid has occurred. Failure to do so will result in a sign not being placed and no Cooldown to be placed on the settlement.

 

Unprotected Settlement Raiding

Ladders may be placed on Unprotected Settlements with appropriate Role-play and Game Moderator supervision. Regular raid rules apply to Unprotected Settlements.

 

General Rules

 

Rallying members of a settlement to log in to defend said settlement from a raid on Skype, Discord, and any other medium is permitted once an alarming emote has been done in-game with sufficient roleplay, such as ringing a bell, lighting a beacon, etc. Sufficient roleplay must consist of a minimum of three emotes. Coordination must remain largely in-game, and Defenders must login from within the city limits. In all other instances, you may not use Skype, Discord, nor any other medium, to rally people to defend your settlement from an attack.

 

Placing or breaking blocks during a raid is prohibited.

 

During a raid cooldown, you may not camp the edge of a territory or block entry to it (AKA “raid-baiting”). If a nation capital is on raid cooldown, then banditing on main roads in the nation tile, leading to the nation, is considered raid-baiting and is not allowed.

 

If the nation is not on cooldown, you may camp for 1 hour at most per day without raiding. This includes camping roads leading up to City Gates. 

 

The raiding party may initiate 3 attempts of lockpicking/breaking in/thievery, with a maximum of three rolls per attempt. This means the raiding party has a total of 9 lockpicks. (Rule voided well /lockpick is being tested.)

 

Once someone has joined the conflict of a raid they must stay within the conflict in Roleplay until its conclusion regardless of side.

 

If a raiding party is away from the settlement that they are raiding for more than 10 minutes without engaging in combat, the raid would be over.

 

Raiding-Ladders may be used in any territory. Each raider/s may carry up to 6 raiding-ladders each. (18 ladders max). Before the raid-ladders are placed down, the raider/s must emote placing them and roll(Sensible ladder placement only). For Nation Tiles/Regions, the ladders will be given to the overseeing GM in order to get placed down.

1. Raiding-ladders can be acquired from the Cloud Temple War Camp.

2. To successfully place the ladders upon the walls, you need to roll 7+. Rolling 6 or less results in the ladders being destroyed. (The roll affects the whole ladder column, not every ladder placed).

 

In order for a player to spectate a raid (/status recording), the player must be at the general area of the raid and already statused before the PvP begins. While with status recording, the player may not try to interfere with the PvP at all. (Let it be reviving/blocking arrows/place blocks or supply items).

 

If you die during a raid, you may not return the the settlement while the raid is occurring. You must wait for the raid to be over in order to return.

 

Lava and Pitfall Traps of any type are not allowed to be used during a raid. No exceptions. 

 

Once raiders initiate combat with the defenders and call ‘PVP’, PVP will begin 3 minutes after ‘PVP’ is declared. This 3 minute countdown will not be stopped unless from personal reasons told to the Moderator overseeing.

[Narthok 10416]

3 minutes ago, WuHanXianShi14 said:

Never doubt someones ability to be bored enough to find someone to annoy.

 

What a backwards and shitty attitude, there are much better ways for small settlements to survive or be absorbed than by subjecting them to shitty raids every 2 days until they no longer want to log on. You think they'll say "Sure let's move to Oren" if that happens to them, or will they just leave?

Hm, well what would you suggest? I'm just saying I don't think a group like the kha or high elves will ever really be raided because people don't remember where they are half the time. 

[Zacho 2177]

sounds like a lot of work for server based on rping, but cool.

[H7R5 55]

My only concern is raiders getting into chests, besides that, this will promote raids to be less cancerous for both sides, whether some people want to admit it or not.

 

Before, when the raid cap was 4, people would only ever bring 4 cavalry or 4 full diamond with potions during off-peak times because it was the only way to win, and now you can actually bring other players to raids instead of only the best PvPers. There will actually be close fights, and the fights will be fair and fun. These rules promote dynamism at it's core. If you don't like being raided, people will have to build actual walls instead of OOC ones. They'll have to conduct in diplomacy, bribery. This only promotes more RP if you let it, instead of just looking at it like it's a cancerous blight. This is a step in the right direction and I hope we can at least get to testing the rules so we can see how much better they will be in practice then on paper.

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

Just now, Narthok said:

Hm, well what would you suggest? I'm just saying I don't think a group like the kha or high elves will ever really be raided because people don't remember where they are half the time. 

Frankly, doesnt matter if youre a big or a smaller playerbase, no one deserves to have their desire to play grinded down by constant raids. This applies to everyone who simply finds no enjoyment in PVP, and sees it only as a necessary evil to expediate RP in certain situations (Which, by the way, is most people).

 

Your rule proposal now enables larger groups who want to eliminate smaller rivals out of existence by making the game unplayable to do so without any real restriction by raiding them every 2 days. NO one enjoys having to deal with **** like that every 2 days.

 

And frankly, this bias against small playerbases is a misguided one anyways. They'll always exist, and if you basically punish them harshly for the sole crime of not wanting to RP in the main (and often congested) RP hubs then they wont join the RP hubs, they'll just leave and take their RP to other platforms. I don't get why you think its okay to **** smaller groups just because they're small.

 

 

[Narthok 10416]

Just now, WuHanXianShi14 said:

Frankly, doesnt matter if youre a big or a smaller playerbase, no one deserves to have their desire to play grinded down by constant raids. This applies to everyone who simply finds no enjoyment in PVP, and sees it only as a necessary evil to expediate RP in certain situations (Which, by the way, is most people).

 

Your rule proposal now enables larger groups who want to eliminate smaller rivals out of existence by making the game unplayable to do so without any real restriction by raiding them every 2 days. NO one enjoys having to deal with **** like that every 2 days.

 

And frankly, this bias against small playerbases is a misguided one anyways. They'll always exist, and if you basically punish them harshly for the sole crime of not wanting to RP in the main (and often congested) RP hubs then they wont join the RP hubs, they'll just leave and take their RP to other platforms. I don't get why you think its okay to **** smaller groups just because they're small.

 

 

It just seems unreasonable to me that players should be given excessive ooc barriers that restrain and damage valuable rp narratives and dynamism. If its an issue then bend the knee. If you don't want to do that then accrue allies, build better defences, pay tribute. There are many many possibilities. When the orcs were raiding the halflings to death just a few weeks ago rather than moaning about the raids the halflings reached out to the orcs and agreed to pay tribute to stop the raids. Now they're one of the most active hubs on the server. its time to stop letting ooc dictate rp or atleast try to minimize it as much as we can.