Breaking the Ice

[Mirtok 2853]

Things to consider:

The prospect of nabbing one of my suits is very low without the accompanying manhunt to follow it up. The foundations that the opposing faction believes they have is almost nonexistent. The stolen suits have since grown from only one, to two, to three and if I read it correctly it was believed that four suits were taken from my suit vaults in Hanseti. The system used with the suits in the order is rather straight forward. As the Hochmeister of the Order and the lands of Hanseti, I own everything. From each Sariants homes to the shirt on their back. This extends to the suits that I lend out to my Sarians for use of passing through the cloud. It is expected that each Sariant returns the suit to an appropriate pullet mechanism for storage when its initial function is not in use. However, I do allow the occasional flaunting of the large armor when I am around to regulate the Sariants actions. This is the same concept I use with the loaning of Diamond armor; If I am not around, you must put it away.

Returning to many messages by Owyn, he claims that Segari, Abeam, Ventraux, Niedster and Sargeblub all wore my suits. This is true, they had access to the suits when ever they were needed and they were instructed on how to put on and take off the suits when it was required. However, it would be impossible for any of these former Teutonic Order members to have one of my suits without my knowledge and for reasons that do not pertain to the Order, for the reason that it would be theft; And if you were to follow up on the status of each of these players VA's, they have none.

In the lengthy conversations with Owyn, there several explanations thrown forth to cover for the suits being stolen. The one I already mentioned, Owyn tempting the Sariants to give up their suit- no VA for the either-, and other oddities that do little give credit the missing suits. I did not receive a single notification or prompt to begin RPing that the suits were in fact missing. Not a sign left in my suit vaults depicting that a suit was missing from its harness or an OOC message saying "Hey, we have your most advanced piece of technology, start RPing that its missing." In fact, I had to learn about their missing status after a few post in the "reconstructing the armor" thread.

The methods used to obtain my armor subverted the rules of the server and required a VA to do most of the process. As such, I do not agree at all with what they did to steal away from tech. I had no option to find them or persecute my soldiers in search of the suits.

As for the odd notion that any of the defected Sariants know the slightest about the suits in RP. Segari was our head miner and always was deep underground, far from the development halls of the university. As for the rest of them, they spent more time in Salvus or not in-game at all than RPing with me about the suits. The only knowledge of the suits their characters have is simply how to put it on and then turn it on once inside. The majority of the functionality of the suits lies with Mirtok (The Creator), Erik (The blacksmith), Dain (The General) and a single member of the Mages guild.

In the lore, Owyn depicts Segari knowing far more than his character would ever be cleared to know. In the lore it depicts a prestine suit of my design, neatly waiting probing in a box; indicating that the suit was not taken by force, thus either tempted out of it or willingly giving away something that would have been proclaimed stolen upon AWOL activity. And I will once more state that not a single member of the Black Company invovled with the suits has a VA to do any of what was proposed.

Now we move to the current state of the suits. I will simply say, they will not work under any circumstance you subject them to that involves the cloud. It is clear that the contributors know minimal suit lore and for a good reason. I will not be publicly posting said lore for the request to keep it on stand by, but I assure you it exists and is heavily expanded upon.

The reverse engineering process is rather underdeveloped. You were able to replicate and essentially dissecting my entire suit of armor that took decades to develop? I spent over 3 months enacting each step towards the suits completion, creating unique properties of our blacksmithing skills and extra technological tools that are necessary for the suits. One cannot just hear about a concept and have it mastered for large scale reproduction in the span of a few months (a few says in RL). Owyn mentions the nuclear bomb projects during the 1930s-1940s and how they were able to quickly recreate the devices in a fraction of the time. That is simply due to the fact that they took the original scientists, the men who had the thought and the method ready for launch in their brains. You did not take my scientists, you took my laborers; Men who only know "swing" and "march". Men who were not in the loop in RP and men who did as they were told instead of asking questions or attempting to know more.

The technology level of the suits far exceeds the mindset of the majority of the people in Asulon. There are concepts about the suits that are incomprehensible to even its inventors- as I like to say "We are banging rocks together to see what happens- the notion that one could decipher every thing about our suits, know how each part works, understand the functionality of each part, visualize how they all work in unison and even smaller details like the language barrier or the fact that our brains are greatly different. I cannot walk over to the dwarf place and understand how their most advanced tech works just by popping it apart, and the same goes for my tech.

It may be asked at this point, "Why is your tech no great and mighty? Isn't that unfair?" Well no, it is not. Generally a normal society focuses their attentions and resources over a broad spectrum of civil services and progress. Be it military, economic, social, cultural or other; resources are diverted. In my particular case, my money, labor, materials and a good chunk of the money, labor, and materials of the Oren empire were directed into a single project that jettisoned by-products along the way. I sacrificed culture, economy, and social development for this single branch in a tech tree so large that the possibilities are endless. I have devoted everything that is the order to this single path that will hopefully end successfully. The suits were a milestone of the path, a product for us to keep working, a product spawned from this single project.

I have self induced failure, death, and setbacks to my lore. I have given up my citizens and defensible land in the name of lore. While I toiled since March, you were able to replicate my work in less than a week; basing your whole operation on many events that never happened in game, scenarios that are rule breaking without the proper VA to pair it with, information impossible for characters to know, techniques that are implausible and a one track path that has yet to see a failure.

It doesn't end there either. The War Claim itself does not comply with the normal regulations of a war claim. You are required to take me region by region on borders that have allowed passage. As it stands, you are cutting through two regions and going straight for my prison island far inland from the coast using longboats to smash through ice, equipped with suits that will not work and should not exist if one were to consider the above walls of text.

If it were up to me I would refuse my stolen suits for reasons stated above, refuse the suit lore for reasons stated above, and refuse this war claim for reasons stated above.

[Kickstarted and Running 965]

This is just going to turn into a flame war. Uthor and Gaius, mind sharing a PM about this? Seventh to I he wants. There are some things to talk about. I'll wait for the PM

[Samson Option 9652]

I am due to get to bed, Masalama you all. That being said, it would be intriguing if I could get a well thought out, well intended and non-vindictive reply to Mirtok's post from the other side. Try to be mature [this goes to both sides, I am not singling out anyone here as I've not listed names] and the War-Claim Team will have to tackle this devil together. Danke in advance ya'll :P :lol: [Kidding, Im not mad]

[Cloakedsphere 1471]

( I appologize for not reading through your full post here mirtok but if any replica suit fails and the fact that they do RP'ly have a set what do you expect someone to do?

It comes off as very power-gamey. If we can not learn how to use your suits in any way, shape or form how do you expect any of us to attempt to attack you? The pink fog you explained to me in TS once before and I can see reasons why its there. That I do not care for. Although, If they have a working suit to get through your pink fog. Just the 1 suit. And they replicate it. Part for part and bolt for bolt in RP why would it fail? It makes zero sense as to how we can even enter hanseti lands at this point if your just going to be "hoarding" your land to you and your teuton's. ( Sorry for putting that a little harshly. Just didnt know how to put that. ) And another thing, They really only replicated the respirator. Can that in its self make it through the pink fog with a full body leather suit? I dont see why it wouldnt.

The point I am trying to make is that all the pink fog and the armor situation is quite power gamey if every replica is going to fail.

I suggested in TS that they have a few GM's watch them test the armor. To make it fair I said let them do a /roll 20. If they get anything higher then 10 then it works. Anything 10 or less it fails? Simple? Yes. It seems fair and an even chance for both sides. )

[Pudclud 32]

[[simply put, without conflict of any sorts, role-play will not prevail. That is why the Kha mostly failed because they stuck to themselves in their jungle. That is why the Mori almost failed when they weren't providing enough conflict at one point. That is why, without any sort of positive, neutral, or negative conflict, role-play ceases to avail. If nobody can enter this pink mist but a select few or group, it is ceasing conflict of any kind. Whether that be positive conflict as in diplomatic talks or simple merchants looking to trade, or negative conflicts such as wars or bandits on the road. If there is no conflict, there is barely any role-play. Something must be done some way, with these suits, or without the suits.]]

Edit: Forgot I need them OOC brackets

[Hiebe 2493]

Seems to me Seventh was a bit snotty in his words too Mystic but thats just me

Otherwise, I still wish to see how we can improve this armor lore. We can even move to location of the warclaim if need but Id rather not have someone tied to the TO to do our warclaim. We can work things out rather then point fingers and have a ooc fit-fest.

Also Seventh check your PMs where the armor workers are trying to talk with you bout the lore

Thank you))

[doom6153 57]

One Gaius' request I am here to defend our lore. I will be defending the breathers. I will allow Skath to defend the armor.

Lets start with this comment- "One cannot just hear about a concept and have it mastered for large scale reproduction in the span of a few months (a few says in RL). "

I did not just here about the concept, I had both the suit and the TAC mask. You argue that we don't properly posses a suit. Well we have the TAC mask and thats what I used. I also had the manual that had diagrams on using the mask.

Now I will adress this comment The reverse engineering process is rather underdeveloped. You were able to replicate and essentially dissecting my entire suit of armor that took decades to develop? I spent over 3 months enacting each step towards the suits completion, creating unique properties of our blacksmithing skills and extra technological tools that are necessary for the suits.

Just becasue it took years to design a super awesome toaster doesn't mean I can't take it dissect it and replicate something very similar key word similar as the suits arn't exact. A poor example, but applicable.

On the the next one- The technology level of the suits far exceeds the mindset of the majority of the people in Asulon. There are concepts about the suits that are incomprehensible to even its inventors- as I like to say "We are banging rocks together to see what happens- the notion that one could decipher every thing about our suits, know how each part works, understand the functionality of each part, visualize how they all work in unison and even smaller details like the language barrier or the fact that our brains are greatly different. I cannot walk over to the dwarf place and understand how their most advanced tech works just by popping it apart, and the same goes for my tech.

My character is not the majoryity of people. He is an accomplished engineer. Also just because we replicated something does not mean we know how every bit of it works. I just made a copy. A good exaple is a college level one page essay. It may take me 2-3 hours to write and edit an 11th grade level essay. It would take me less than a third of that time to copy a college level essay.

Now to address if we don't have a proper rp suit. We still have the TAC mask and have people who know the general purpose of the suits. We know that we need an airtight suit with a breather. Now as far as I know our suits are simple airtight sets of armor with breather. There are no robotics or tech and no magic stones that as far as I know are just to counter wieght.

[Nefarious Aus Shitpost 891]

[[ Also, as for skipping over regions, who is to say that can't be done? If the Teutons lack naval defences along that river there would be NOTHING to stop us going upstream into the lake where the Loch is and overrunning it. It is in the center of a bloody lake for gods sake.

As for the armor, well that is not my place to discuss as I was not involved in its creation or manufacture and am RP'ly unaware of the fact we may or may not possess a suit and a potential reverse engineered copy. ]]

[MajesticOwyn 334]

((This post is a joint effort between myself and Zezimus to explain the situation. The information within is from both of us, I am just posting it to consolidate it into one post.

Things to consider:

The prospect of nabbing one of my suits is very low without the accompanying manhunt to follow it up. The foundations that the opposing faction believes they have is almost nonexistent. The stolen suits have since grown from only one, to two, to three and if I read it correctly it was believed that four suits were taken from my suit vaults in Hanseti. The system used with the suits in the order is rather straight forward. As the Hochmeister of the Order and the lands of Hanseti, I own everything. From each Sariants homes to the shirt on their back. This extends to the suits that I lend out to my Sarians for use of passing through the cloud. It is expected that each Sariant returns the suit to an appropriate pullet mechanism for storage when its initial function is not in use. However, I do allow the occasional flaunting of the large armor when I am around to regulate the Sariants actions. This is the same concept I use with the loaning of Diamond armor; If I am not around, you must put it away.

Starting this off, never have I claimed that we had four sets of the armor. You killed Abeam, Segari and Sargeblub and got their suits back. The two suits that I do consider under our control are Ventraux and Niedster. In both cases I found both of them in RP when they were far away from Hanseti. As I was an old Order member they were eager to see me and we began to talk about events. Next thing you know, they have made their dislike of the current Order known and I end up convincing them to leave. We then took off their suits thoroughly in RP and treated it as a moment to breath their first breath of freedom. The suits were never given back because they left without resigning, which is death in your Order. It wouldn’t make much sense for the person to go give a suit back when they will be met by execution, let alone the fact that they couldn’t return back over the cloud in RP. So we kept them, forgot about them even. It was never about the suits, we simply forgot. Then we started to work for Zezimus and his need of a way to Hanseti was made clear, we had an answer.

Onto the next point. I have it from all of the mentioned former Sariants that they always wore the suits, even if you were there or not. There was no pully system, they never had to return the suits when they passed through the clouds. It was a permanent thing and I am sure they can each post and confirm this. The same thing was said of the armor, you left it in their care at all times and if they happened to lose them, then they would have to replace it. It was the same way then when I was in the order, and all five members claim it didn’t change. Not to mention there are a few posts on the forums showing screenshots of your sariants running around in these suits, though I am sure you are aware of that.

Lastly, this was all resolved before the whole issue with the warclaim. Sparrow gave his input on the VA laws and even sent it to a GM (Urasept, I believe, though Sparrow would know better) to be dealt with. They both found that the lore should not be void and suggested I get a Mini-VA for a few things. You were in that skype chat and you saw this, so it’s curious why you bring up an issue that has been GM resolved.

Returning to many messages by Owyn, he claims that Segari, Abeam, Ventraux, Niedster and Sargeblub all wore my suits. This is true, they had access to the suits when ever they were needed and they were instructed on how to put on and take off the suits when it was required. However, it would be impossible for any of these former Teutonic Order members to have one of my suits without my knowledge and for reasons that do not pertain to the Order, for the reason that it would be theft; And if you were to follow up on the status of each of these players VA's, they have none.

It was not theft and it was explained to you by Sparrow. We didn’t care about the suits until we had a use, we were just happy to be united with each other and role playing as a group. Since your Sariants insist that they wore the suits everywhere, this would explain why they had a suit outside the fog. They were off roleplaying with others or buying something, I don’t know. In the end, I ran into them. Once they decided to join me that doesn’t mean that the suit will teleport back to you instantly, it’s a physical object that stays with them.

Many of the Sariants have also said that the suits were given to them as if personal objects for the effort they put into the Order. When they removed their suits they kept them for their own reasons. The suits were seen as their property, not yours, and since most of them have nothing against you OOCly and they all tell me the same thing, I’m inclined to believe them.

In the lengthy conversations with Owyn, there several explanations thrown forth to cover for the suits being stolen. The one I already mentioned, Owyn tempting the Sariants to give up their suit- no VA for the either-, and other oddities that do little give credit the missing suits. I did not receive a single notification or prompt to begin RPing that the suits were in fact missing. Not a sign left in my suit vaults depicting that a suit was missing from its harness or an OOC message saying "Hey, we have your most advanced piece of technology, start RPing that its missing." In fact, I had to learn about their missing status after a few post in the "reconstructing the armor" thread.

The methods used to obtain my armor subverted the rules of the server and required a VA to do most of the process. As such, I do not agree at all with what they did to steal away from tech. I had no option to find them or persecute my soldiers in search of the suits.

I did not inform you of the suits missing as there has been issues with metagaming. If one of your Sariants has gone with a suit and hasn’t been around you for quite awhile, I would begin to suspect something has happens. It’s not my job to tell you exactly what happened in RP so you can instantly begin hunting us, it’s your job to figure it out. The Sariant could have perma-killed his character, leaving that suit where ever his body is. He could have been lost in the wilds, or perhaps he betrayed you. If you had some idea that the suits were supposed to be returned often, you obviously didn’t make that known in RP to your actual members. I have had a few of them tell me that you didn’t even give the suit in RP, you told them to download the skin and wear it as if the RP had been done.

As for the odd notion that any of the defected Sariants know the slightest about the suits in RP. Segari was our head miner and always was deep underground, far from the development halls of the university. As for the rest of them, they spent more time in Salvus or not in-game at all than RPing with me about the suits. The only knowledge of the suits their characters have is simply how to put it on and then turn it on once inside. The majority of the functionality of the suits lies with Mirtok (The Creator), Erik (The blacksmith), Dain (The General) and a single member of the Mages guild.

In the lore, Owyn depicts Segari knowing far more than his character would ever be cleared to know. In the lore it depicts a prestine suit of my design, neatly waiting probing in a box; indicating that the suit was not taken by force, thus either tempted out of it or willingly giving away something that would have been proclaimed stolen upon AWOL activity. And I will once more state that not a single member of the Black Company invovled with the suits has a VA to do any of what was proposed.

The information Segari gave me was information he was told, I believe. In the end, all he told me was that the suit was double-plate, which would be quite obvious on observation. Secondly, he told us that the suit was airtight and that the helmet sealed to the body. He wore the suit, as did the other four Sariants, so this would have been extremely obvious, too. Notice he didn’t tell us anything more about the deep inner workings of the suit. A dwarf could have easily detected what metal was used in the suit as well as anything else related to the metal work, they are known for their smithery.

I would also like to add that Sargeblub was part of the RP, directly involved with kidnapping ambrose for the runes. I am sure some of the other Sariants can enlighten us on what exactly they were doing at the time of the armors creation, but you saying that these men knew absolutely nothing is clearly false.

None of this information was meta-gamed and I hadn’t even read the Underneath Hanseti post until today. Everything was done between us in-game and then the most important aspects were posted on the forums for all to see.

Again, this was all resolved by the VAT and a GM, yet you bring it up again.

Now we move to the current state of the suits. I will simply say, they will not work under any circumstance you subject them to that involves the cloud. It is clear that the contributors know minimal suit lore and for a good reason. I will not be publicly posting said lore for the request to keep it on stand by, but I assure you it exists and is heavily expanded upon.

The reverse engineering process is rather underdeveloped. You were able to replicate and essentially dissecting my entire suit of armor that took decades to develop? I spent over 3 months enacting each step towards the suits completion, creating unique properties of our blacksmithing skills and extra technological tools that are necessary for the suits. One cannot just hear about a concept and have it mastered for large scale reproduction in the span of a few months (a few says in RL). Owyn mentions the nuclear bomb projects during the 1930s-1940s and how they were able to quickly recreate the devices in a fraction of the time. That is simply due to the fact that they took the original scientists, the men who had the thought and the method ready for launch in their brains. You did not take my scientists, you took my laborers; Men who only know "swing" and "march". Men who were not in the loop in RP and men who did as they were told instead of asking questions or attempting to know more.

The technology level of the suits far exceeds the mindset of the majority of the people in Asulon. There are concepts about the suits that are incomprehensible to even its inventors- as I like to say "We are banging rocks together to see what happens- the notion that one could decipher every thing about our suits, know how each part works, understand the functionality of each part, visualize how they all work in unison and even smaller details like the language barrier or the fact that our brains are greatly different. I cannot walk over to the dwarf place and understand how their most advanced tech works just by popping it apart, and the same goes for my tech.

Here is the problem I have. You and the Order are allowed to sit behind this cloud that seems to kill anyone, and our attempts at making a suit based on your technology have failed. I believe we all know there is a big rule against power-gaming on the server, so why is one small group of people effectively allowed to stay behind a cloud of radiation that kills everyone else but protects them? That sounds like power-gaming to me. So here we are, we have valid RP and good reasons on why we want you dead, so we put work into RP that would allow us to further this goal.

I have read the Underneath Hanseti post and it contains the lore you have written on the armor there. What is interesting is that you claim theres a fully fleshed out other document that goes into extreme detail about this lore. The problem I have about this is that if it’s kept secret like that, you can easily try to add things to it as you please to try and disprove anything we do. This is why I fully believe the lore, especially when it relates to something that breaks the bounds of fantasy and power-gaming both, should be open for those to see. If any of that information was meta-gamed, you could shut them down as you are trying to do to us. We haven’t meta-gamed anything and there has been hours of in-game RP as well as forum RP to go with it.

Have we done it faster then you? Aye, but that is because we had a firm base product to work on and the man power to further that goal. As you said yourself, it was three of you and a mage that worked on the armor. Zezimus has the entire Dwarven nation at his disposal and uses his finest smith and engineers, as well as mages to look at this armor. His mages know of the armor, I am told, and have inspected it in-game.

In the end, the suits aren’t a perfect replica but they are based on your technology. We didn’t build them to be massive power suits, thus we do not need the weight reducing stones. The rest is our version of a suit that would allow us to traverse the gas. We have had many people inspect the armor and since we had two pieces of your own technology to reverse engineer and form our filters for the mask. Don’t forget that we also had five people that have used the TAC mask and we also had the handbooks, instructing us on proper use and care for the mask. It would have given a fairly good basis for understanding such devices.

It may be asked at this point, "Why is your tech no great and mighty? Isn't that unfair?" Well no, it is not. Generally a normal society focuses their attentions and resources over a broad spectrum of civil services and progress. Be it military, economic, social, cultural or other; resources are diverted. In my particular case, my money, labor, materials and a good chunk of the money, labor, and materials of the Oren empire were directed into a single project that jettisoned by-products along the way. I sacrificed culture, economy, and social development for this single branch in a tech tree so large that the possibilities are endless. I have devoted everything that is the order to this single path that will hopefully end successfully. The suits were a milestone of the path, a product for us to keep working, a product spawned from this single project.

I have self induced failure, death, and setbacks to my lore. I have given up my citizens and defensible land in the name of lore. While I toiled since March, you were able to replicate my work in less than a week; basing your whole operation on many events that never happened in game, scenarios that are rule breaking without the proper VA to pair it with, information impossible for characters to know, techniques that are implausible and a one track path that has yet to see a failure.

I am not going to deny that you put quite a bit of work into your lore but you and I both know that Hanseti had seen better days before this happened. You moved us all to Watcher Stadt and abandoned the city, by this point it was all but a ghost town. You didn’t even care about the city as you never went there, I was always sent in to deal with the Mayor. I quit and the city still remained a ghost town up until your fog came.

As I said we managed to replicate the armor faster because we had two pieces of your technology and the entire dwarven nation at our disposal. Engineers, smiths, mages... This was all done in RP and literally consisted of hours of peoples time.

It doesn't end there either. The War Claim itself does not comply with the normal regulations of a war claim. You are required to take me region by region on borders that have allowed passage. As it stands, you are cutting through two regions and going straight for my prison island far inland from the coast using longboats to smash through ice, equipped with suits that will not work and should not exist if one were to consider the above walls of text.

If it were up to me I would refuse my stolen suits for reasons stated above, refuse the suit lore for reasons stated above, and refuse this war claim for reasons stated above.

This is where I think that any reason is being found to try and shut us down. Starting from the top, if you look at this map you will see that the river to Fichloch is not part of any region, thus no region needs to be taken for us to invade it. Oren has forsaken the Order in-game and given us permission through it’s lands to invade you. This means that all the territories around Hanseti are ours to pass through.

The Dwarves have worked hard in RP to raise a fleet of longboats and equip them with Icebreakers, ample enough force to break through the icy river and enter the bay that Fichloch is in.

In the end we just wanted to have a cool battle by assaulting the prison by sea, it would have really made for an epic event. From the suits to the permission from Oren we tried hard to establish a way in to make this happen.

I just want to wrap it up by saying that both myself and Zezimus have tried to talk to both sides about the issue in a mature manner. All we were received with was a lack of cooperation in OOC and the other side has acted very rudely. This was all going to be some fun in RP but at every turn we are met with hate in OOC.))

[Aryon 679]

[ This whole warclaim can be shown below.

In all seriousness, I really do not know why everyone takes everything to OOC. They have a TAC gasmask, and they developed a few. Problem solved - Do we really need this piles of pages of pure OOC ****? No, we really don't. My suggestion is to just continue with the war-claim, and stop the OOC conflict. This is what is tearing us apart - The hate. Just, calm it, and I say continue RP. ]

[Kickstarted and Running 965]

I'm going to discuss this with the warclaim team. Until then just wait. Your maturity in this waiting period will reflect heavily on this as we aren't going to give in to the whining side. Keep it clean and constructive.

[Samson Option 9652]

[Quite frankly, I will request an FM to warn any and all who post ignorant comments, childish comments, comments that do not pertain towards the topic at hand, and Aryon that post was silly :P. Majestic, I will read your reply as soon as possible. Until then, this war-claim is postponed; I hope you understand that some of us have school ;)]

Oh, one last question, Hiebe are you claiming me to be biased :P

[Braxis 813]

[Quite frankly, I will request an FM to warn any and all who post ignorant comments, childish comments, comments that do not pertain towards the topic at hand, and Aryon that post was silly :P. Majestic, I will read your reply as soon as possible. Until then, this war-claim is postponed; I hope you understand that some of us have school ;)]

Oh, one last question, Hiebe are you claiming me to be biased :P

The Warclaim is postponed, and Yes if anyone is doing the comments gauis is stating about or anything simliar a War status will be given for here on out. The warclaim will be rejudged by us Three once we all are able to.

[Hiebe 2493]

[Quite frankly, I will request an FM to warn any and all who post ignorant comments, childish comments, comments that do not pertain towards the topic at hand, and Aryon that post was silly :P. Majestic, I will read your reply as soon as possible. Until then, this war-claim is postponed; I hope you understand that some of us have school ;)]

Oh, one last question, Hiebe are you claiming me to be biased :P

Oh yesh yers da biased guy I knows ;)

[arabidopsis 1]

-snip-