[Feedback] Holy Wards

[Gone 869]

I've noticed this topic come up rather often on Skype and even on the forums so after talking to a few people about it and getting a little encouragement I decided to make a feedback thread. 

 

Obviously the topic here is holy wards, specifically the ones that have popped up around cities to prevent spooks from entering. They're typically made either by clerics or by Ascended (I've heard paladins can make them too but haven't seen one yet) and I know that as of my writing this there are two wards at Liandria along with one at Sutica. Earlier today I even took the following screens of the wards I found.

 

 

That one is found right at the gate and the following screen is before the bridge near the shop stalls.

 

 

This is the Sutica one.

 

 

Now... The first thing I noticed that each one shares is none of the signs say how big the affected area is. There's no indication how wide or how thick so I can't tell if the wards are merely flat walls or domes. Could someone walk around them? Run straight through it or have a horse charge through? There doesn't seem to be any sort of MC representation either other than the signs placed down. I did have the thought that perhaps the signs at Sutica having two lines meant that was the size of the ward but quickly realized that the signs simply wouldn't fit in one row nor could the second row be placed directly behind the first as that weapon chest is there. 

 

My next bit of confusion came from the simple thought of what's fueling these things? It can't be the caster/creator as the signs mention something being recharged so what's holding the holy energy? If its just floating there then what is stopping it from dispersing? I looked around for some sort of crystal or obelisk but couldn't find anything nor any signs to indicate one being about. 

 

I also noticed that they're rather general about who's affected. "Dark beings." "Dark mages and beings." "Any and all beings of taint." 

I'm sure some will say that its rather obvious what is dark and what isn't but honestly... It isn't always. See, one of my characters is currently cursed to consume the emotions of mortals (subtle advertisement is subtle). Many people would classify this as being something dark. These wards however have no effect on my character. This of course made me wonder what other exceptions there might be and thus a question was directed to a kind MAT. The answer I was given was that "they only effect tainted beings and stuff like that, a necro would be fine unless they had recently been raising the dead (or something I forget the specifics) where they'd get temp tainted" and yes I'd asked about a necromancer as an example since they use dark magic but are still normalish people otherwise unlike say a shade who has a parasite thing in them.

 

Finally the first ward mentions being barely noticeable unless you're right up on it while the other two seem more out there and obvious or at least don't mention being hard to see. Honestly I'm not sure if this is just a preference by the creators or what so I thought I'd mention that real quick as well hopefully someone can clear up that part. 

 

When asked about these wards people generally respond with "we got tired of being attacked" which is obviously understandable. Conflict rp can be fun but no one wants to do the same thing every day. I tried asking a GM why spook attacks don't get a cooldown like a raid and was told they actually do count as a raid and thus can trigger the raid cooldown or be halted by the raid cooldown. This method though I'm assuming requires more than 1 spook to have attacked and either it isn't long enough between attacks for the defenders or people aren't reporting spook attacks as a raid and thus aren't changing their cooldown signs. Either way I started thinking of other ways that might please both sides more. 

 

My first suggestion and one that I like the most is altering the wards to not block people but instead only prevent dark magic from being used. This would allow spooks to enter the towns that have wards but still not cause trouble or at least not be able to cause trouble using dark magic. Thus certain players wouldn't be halted from having a drink in the tavern or surprise visiting a friend just because they're a dark being while still offering the town protection. 

 

My second suggestion is a bit more restrictive and that's to make holy warding more like voidal warding. Aka more a personal use thing with the caster putting up a ward at the time of conflict or enchanting an item to ward against dark magic that others can carry around. This would still protect individuals with holy orders able to gift such items to people of importance such as nation leaders but also open up the currently warded cities to be attacked by dark forces. I think its fair to say not many people will like this idea hence why I prefer my first suggestion.

 

So now I open up the thread to everyone else, please comment to answer questions if you can. Say what you like and/or dislike about holy wards. Feel free to talk about your experiences with them or even make a suggestion yourself if you feel they could be changed or improved some way. My only request is everyone respond in a calm manner.

 

Thank you for reading my 6am writing and have a llama baby for your trouble.

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

Honestly if you play an undead character your aim really shouldn't to be to be able to sit down in a populated city and mingle with the normal townsfolk. That's why I dislike the concept of mortal disguises for Spooks. The wards exist to keep the undead out because we don't want them in our city, period. Spooks shouldn't be socializing casually with the townsfolk nor should they be striving to.

 

BTW, the reason Spooks don't trigger the raid cooldown is usually because they come in groups of 1-2 which doesn't count as a raid.

 

 

[cablam 477]

It's stupid and extremely anti-rp. A couple hours out of someone's day shouldn't be able to bar entry to one specific group. You don't want them to keep attacking you? Tough luck, that is how RP works and you will have to deal with it in a way not so powergamey. Remove these wards that only exist to prevent RP from happening. 

Just now, 吳憾戰士14 said:

Honestly if you play an undead character your aim really shouldn't to be to be able to sit down in a populated city and mingle with the normal townsfolk. That's why I dislike the concept of mortal disguises for Spooks. The wards exist to keep the undead out because we don't want them in our city, period. Spooks shouldn't be socializing casually with the townsfolk nor should they be striving to.

 

Why not? Just because someone is 'tainted' doesn't mean they are evil literally all the time. It also doesn't mean that they can't act like normal people sometimes. Spooks don't exist to be the holy orders' punching bag. The basic ideology of the holy orders is flawed in this sense and is why something like these anti-RP wards would have been added at all. 

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

Just now, cablam said:

You don't want them to keep attacking you? Tough luck, that is how RP works and you will have to deal with it in a way not so powergamey.

And this is exactly why we put up the wards. Don't like them? Tough luck, that is how RP works.

 

In all seriousness, if you don't recognize that by attacking someone (and repeatedly dying) over and over you are not providing any sort of enjoyment to them and are infact making your presence an unfun chore, then you deserve to be kept out by a ward. The only reason those wards were put up is because some spooks don't understand the concept of things becoming redundant (One lich we've killed four times. One we've killed at least six, and that's just since this map started.)

 

I generally believe if your character is killed in an area (especially if its 4 times) you shouldn't repeatedly return there over and over and continue to be a consistent problem for the people living there. respect the fact you died and go RP elsewhere. that just applies to the character of course. i dont have an issue with people coming back to RP as another toon other than the one which was killed

[E__V__O 2000]

Why don't the spooks make wards against holy magic to pass through said barriers? 

 

In a serious note, what of those dark art users who learnt the magic to get revenge on someone and then where to strive away once they completed this goal... While under the influence of learning/practising the dark arts they cannot enter/feel pain?

 

Edit~

They're not primarily evil they just want revenge, something most characters do over LoTC.

[Seliyne 196]

Not going to give an opinion on the topic right now, but I can totally agree with how obnoxious those signs are.

 

I'll put a bounty of like three fiddy up for the coder who makes an emote-sign plugin. Streamline that ****, yo. You can literally repurpose the utterly forgotten FRP sign plugin too, easy peasy.

 

@Tofuus @Kowaman

 

EDIT: Actually this would make a good coding project for me. I'll give it a go this weekend.

[cablam 477]

Just now, 吳憾戰士14 said:

In all seriousness, if you don't recognize that by attacking someone (and repeatedly dying) over and over you are not providing any sort of enjoyment to them and are infact making your presence an unfun chore, then you deserve to be kept out by a ward. The only reason those wards were put up is because some spooks don't understand the concept of things becoming redundant (One lich we've killed four times. One we've killed at least six, and that's just since this map started.)

 

I generally believe if your character is killed in an area (especially if its 4 times) you shouldn't repeatedly return there over and over and continue to be a consistent problem for the people living there. respect the fact you died and go RP elsewhere. that just applies to the character of course. i dont have an issue with people coming back to RP as another toon other than the one which was killed

I completely agree with you on this point, but the solution to it is not throwing up a barrier that literally no tainted being can cross and have it encompass your entire city. 

[Harri 4815]

I can understand why there are wards present in so many places - it makes sense IRP and all, who would want undead in their town - but putting it over an entire ******* city to stop any and all forms of RP is just... boring, for lack of a better word.

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

Just now, cablam said:

I completely agree with you on this point, but the solution to it is not throwing up a barrier that literally no tainted being can cross and have it encompass your entire city. 

It only covers the area around our front gate, and if the undead didn't return so frequently after dying repeatedly (admittedly there are 2-3 main offenders for this and a good chunk of them are okay) then we wouldn't need to put up the ward. It's a necessity we turned to when we realized that relying on common decency didn't work.

 

Also, while it may not be repetitive to you, it sure as hell gets repetitive for us. For you, the spook trespassing changes day by day. Sug one day, Lhindir the next, Riven_ the third, you the fourth. So you as individuals only enter the city once every few days or so. But for us? The people don't change. We need to deal with every single encounter. Daily. It gets really redundant and unfun, even if we're winning the fights. I always am regularly checking my screen when I'm off LOTC doing other things on the computer, waiting for the daily spook incursion. Given that, we put up a ward so we can have some breathing room.

 

If you want the ward taken down, then you (the undead RPers) need to get together as a group, agree to honour a code of not trespassing on Linandria so frequently (again, not as individuals, as a GROUP), and maintaining a distance and not being a repeating problem for the locals after being killed there. If that happens, and the spook attacks become less repetitive, redundant and chore-like, then we can say RPly that we don't need to constantly get our clerics to recharge our ward, and take it down.

[Angmarzku 1251]

Could you at least mention someone else besides riven who was obnoxious and tried to destroy rp repeatedly in the past months? I'd like to know so things like this don't happen

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

Just now, HB_ said:

I can understand why there are wards present in so many places - it makes sense IRP and all, who would want undead in their town - but putting it over an entire ******* city to stop any and all forms of RP is just... boring, for lack of a better word.

Its not boring for us. It's breathing room, lol. I'd think in situations like these, the leaders, guardsfolk and regular citizens who frequent the city have a more influential word and a more insightful perspective on why these wards are up.

 

Just now, Ang said:

Could you at least mention someone else besides riven who was obnoxious and tried to destroy rp repeatedly in the past months? I'd like to know so things like this don't happen

I'm not talking about them being obnoxious and trying to destroy RP. In most cases, the spooks did neither. However, they still trespassed, were killed, and later returned once more to do more or less the same thing. The main complaint is the repetition. See my above reply to Cablam to see my explanation of that. Dealing with Spooks over and over, day in and day out, is unfun.
 

I've reached out and tried to deal with this, personally. This is the message I sent to slic3:

Spoiler

I'd like you to ask the wraiths to frequent linandria and the druid's grove less. Over the last two weeks or so, it seems that more or less every day we are forced on to deal with one. When we kill them, they return wearing a different impenetrable mortal disguise to basically negate the consequences of anything they did. At this point, it's become repetitive and unfun for the wood elves and druids. The burning of the savannah grove was fun, and so was the dragon attack on Linandria. But, since then its become a daily occurance, and a chore.

Lhindir, Valmir and Riven_ are the main offenders. Both of which have repeatedly returned to Linandria and the mother grove on their undead characters after being repeatedly killed in one or both areas.

The whole reason we put up the wards which the undead RPers like to complain about is because we get wraith/lich/undead incursions into the grove/wood elf city so much that handling it individually through RP without becoming burnt out is no longer feasible. It has stopped being fun.

What we want is for the wraiths to space out their visits, disguised or no. Once a week would be a good threshold. Additionally, wraiths which are killed in the druid's grove and linandria shouldn't return so frequently.

That said, we're open to events and more meaningful encounters. But random wraiths wandering into the city, or random 2-3 wraith assaults have become an almost daily occurance and need to be limited.

 

He said he would handle it, so I'll allow myself to trust him and hope things improve.

 

As I said above, if you respect being killed in RP and stop returning over and over after dying, and in general trespass into Linandria less frequently (as a GROUP, not as individuals), then we will have RP reason to take down that ward.

[Gone 869]

Thank you guys for answering so far! Trying to respond to everyone but I'm half outta it at the moment and a slow writer ;-; 

 

I never saw the crystal thing but did hear that at one point the wards on the bridge were down because someone had thrown a rock at them. I assume that'd be the event that took out the crystal @elder ghoul saw? Which just leaves the question of where is it now? Was it forgotten when the ward was remade? Where is the 'battery' for Sutica? 

 

As for the mages not being affected glad to have that further confirmed though that also makes me wonder if someone got afflicted by taint somehow but wasn't a dark being or dark magic user what would the wards do to them? I ask because when I played a cleric in Athera there was a couple times where people asked to have taint removed from them that someone else had inflicted. Not sure if that's still a thing that can happen but might as well ask just in case. 

 

More a personal note I agree about the whole only providing rp and not taking items, heck my cursed girl literally can't use her powers to rob or kill. It's written right into the lore and honestly I like that. Been looking around towns for spots that I could hide away yet use said powers from to provide like a mini-event for people.

 

Just now, 吳憾戰士14 said:

Honestly if you play an undead character your aim really shouldn't to be to be able to sit down in a populated city and mingle with the normal townsfolk. That's why I dislike the concept of mortal disguises for Spooks. The wards exist to keep the undead out because we don't want them in our city, period. Spooks shouldn't be socializing casually with the townsfolk nor should they be striving to.

 

BTW, the reason Spooks don't trigger the raid cooldown is usually because they come in groups of 1-2 which doesn't count as a raid.

Leo you're getting quoted since I can't do the @ thing with your symbols >:c 

I see it as a "don't know what you've got until its gone" sort of thing. Some undead volunteer to be changed because they're scared of dying, others might not have a choice about it at least icly. Disguises could be used then if they decide they don't want spook rp on that character or don't want to get attacked at the moment. I'm sure you've had moments where druid rp or nation leader rp got boring and you wanted Art to do something else for a short period. Maybe that undead wishes they were mortal again, maybe they're trying to sneakily recruit people, heck maybe they feel lonely and want to chat could be a lotta reasons which is why I find such things rather interesting to ask people about especially icly if I get a chance. It can even be fun at times to realize the person you were just interacting with was actually an undead. Of course that all depends on how well the rp is done, obviously walking in with a mask or hood on or walking in clearly looking undeadish isn't going to get you anything but killed and thus isn't very smart. That I do agree with you on is annoying, if someone keeps dying and yet every time they come back they make it really obvious who they are or wear something that gets them noticed (aka mask/hood). 

 

I understand that wards are "RP" as well and that the towns in question obviously asked for such things to be made but my personal hope is that a better solution could be found that wouldn't completely block certain characters out of certain areas. Hence the suggestion of wards blocking the magic not the people. Oh and thank you for clarifying on the raid thing, I don't often get to see spook attacks so wasn't entirely sure there could only assume. 

Just now, 吳憾戰士14 said:

If you want the ward taken down, then you (the undead RPers) need to get together as a group, agree to honour a code of not trespassing on Linandria so frequently (again, not as individuals, as a GROUP), and maintaining a distance and not being a repeating problem for the locals after being killed there. If that happens, and the spook attacks become less repetitive, redundant and chore-like, then we can say RPly that we don't need to constantly get our clerics to recharge our ward, and take it down.

^That's also a very good solution, would work for both parties I think but the trick there would be a stray/rogue spook ruining it for the rest.

 

GM's probably should make a little amendment or something to the raid rules letting people know that spooks count too.

 

@cablam 

Your feelings on wards are actually what I saw a lot of people complaining about thus what motivated me to first talk to people and eventually make this thread. They do seem worded a bit strongly and to completely prevent certain people from entering? Seems... Eh. I don't care for it so I'm glad they aren't more popular but the ones that do exist get a lot of attention.

 

@Evocress 

I don't know for sure so I'd have to ask someone else but I think if a transfiguration mage understood holy magic or somehow got a holy user to help that they could possibly create a ward against that type of holy magic. Obviously someone understanding cleric magic and thus making a ward for cleric magic wouldn't then work against paladins but I'd assume it works this way? Example being my mage, she was a druid at one point and a cleric before that thus she understands how those two holy powers work. Logically I assume she could thus abjure or ward against those two buuut I'd have to confirm with someone before trying it.

 

@HB_

Pretty much summed up my feelings perfectly.

[cablam 477]

Just now, 吳憾戰士14 said:

-snip-

Well I don't even play an undead character, I just find this ward situation stupid. Also if the ward only covers the bridge then please specify such as I have had a number of people believe it covers the entire city. As I said earlier though, I sympathize with you having to deal with this so frequently but that doesn't mean you should go out of your way to bar everyone entry. Maybe instead of using wards just have someone man a gate.

[mitto 2312]

I think it's fair to want to RP in certain cities but when you choose to play a spook character you need to understand that you also choose the consequences of being one.

 

Linandria is an extremely religious nation which has 0 tolerance for taint as it's unnatural, it's not always a case of good vs evil. 

 

As for wards, maybe it's a cheap way of stopping RP, but if the RP is repetative and stale I can agree with the excessive use. I'm not sure I haven't been around a lot.

 

I mean I agree spook RP can get stale and you aren't necessarily evil but Linandria really does have a 0 tolerance to it, it's most likely not the nation you should be choosing to have RP.

 

I don't feel like you should be really ripping on Art for cracking down on one of the few core values Linandria has, it's a religious military state not a safe space.

[Medvekoma 2073]

I think these wards are a terribly simplistic and passive way to prevent spooks from entering.

 

Gold's hit an all-time low in price. Just buy an aurum sword and wave it at the spooks. It'll provide your character with some experience and it's not just a sign you place down and go off to eat garlic bread with a "kk safe lmao" face.

 

Hell, you could even purchase some pure aurum residue and throw it at them. There's just so many creative ways to "ward off spooks" without resorting to signs placed on the ground.