[✗] Spam-Test Amendment #1: Corcitură Edition.

[The King Of The Moon 7016]

4 minutes ago, MadOne said:

as the pontiff while testing id like to say that i have been pretty good faith in the testing process and have been pretty purist about roleplay, so idk what the point ur making is here.

I'm glad to hear that! Though you acting in good faith does nothing to change the reality with the lore as written that noone else has to act in good faith. Its a foolproof test and noone needs an excuse to use it. As unfortunate as it may be, lore often needs to be written to accommodate the worst case scenario. 

 

We're not describing "people dressed as Voldemort" here. I'm not saying that doesn't happen but it's a bit of a strawman against the issues this submission is clearly trying to tackle; if someone looks evil with or without this ammendment you can still kill them. 

[Unwillingly 18096]

I think there's just a fundamental flaw with how tells/weaknesses are roleplayed. darkspawn tells- while they're tangible and persisting in RP- are often selectively emoted, meaning they arent a reliable form of darkspawn discovery unless you rely on methods that force a physical reaction (such as aurum/salt testing). pile that on top of the plethora of disguises and respawn mechanics people have access to and I find it difficult to agree with a corcitura buff. if you get discovered the worst that happens is you die, and then have the option to immediately respawn like nothing happened. so why are we so desperate to elude the chance of discovery OOCly

 

at the very least just make salt require an RP item player signature because people really like to just pull bags of salt out of their ass. it's a creature weakness, idk why this isn't something that requires some form of bare minimum restriction 

[MadOne 4945]

2 minutes ago, The King Of The Moon said:

I'm glad to hear that! Though you acting in good faith does nothing to change the reality with the lore as written that noone else has to act in good faith. Its a foolproof test and noone needs an excuse to use it. As unfortunate as it may be, lore often needs to be written to accommodate the worst case scenario. 

Not gonna lie bro as it stands, Darkspawn have so much ST protection to begin with and i dont think “arbitrary testing” is such an issue as they make it out to be. Its practically impossible to catch and corc or any other CA character without having a crazy spy network and weeks of investigative roleplay (it takes about 2 weeks of research and organisation to catch one perp) and even if you catch them, they will not have any consequences suffered to their feeding times, their regeneration of mana or idk whatever cooldowns you use on magic, let alone a PK. Ive seen vampires I killed return on a disguise after 30 minutes to the same city to act like nothing happened, so the argument about good faith really does not stick when spooks constantly implicate themselves and then refuse to take any consequences. These amendments making them harder to find will only contribute to the Baldur’s Gate-isation of spook RP where these guys love not to commit to spook roleplay but want to be able to do tavern rp slice of life. Ive seen weirdo freak characters that habitually eat human livers go into the pub to have a pint with the lads. I feel like such a heavy handed approach will just grant a de-facto immunity to testing, and like you will need “certain evidence” such as coming across a feeding, and as a result valid forms of roleplay such as a “strong suspicion” can be easily disputed and sieved through hours of modreqqing and dispute to make merking a guy that will return to the town as soon as the timer is done not even worth it.

 

[kuebiko 684]

3 hours ago, MadOne said:

The problem isnt the testing lol if you dress like ******* Sauron or Voldemort in a medieval slavic city obviously you are gonna get tested. Just literally if these CA goons dropped their weird gothic aesthetic and dressed like unassuming peasants, no one would spam test them anymore. U guys keep telegraphing ur evil alignment with ur aesthetics and get surprised when u get caught. Bad amendment

idfk I loitered in Petra talking to people and got tested randomly (I am not a spook). Character wears bright red, gold, stereotypical elf victorian ruffley clothes. You really do just have to get unlucky, and someone will go "darkspawn test time"

 

I'd be a little sad if spooks stopped dressing thematically though, just because it's kinda cool  

[_AzureLexi 766]

So my two cents because I see a lot of people talking about "don't look suspicious and you won't be tested lol".
My character, Arielle, has been darkspawn tested when she was a teenager. A short, chubby elven teenager with a nonverbal disability, being darkspawn tested by sheer random chance. Which not being a Corcurita, she of course, has no reason not to go through with the small pinprick on her finger and a little sprinkle of salt.

I don't play a Corc, although I do find the lore interesting, I just wanted to add that no, this doesn't just happen to people who dress like Sauron.

[PCSwift 1422]

8 hours ago, Xarkly said:

While I definitely appreciate the perspective, I really strongly disagree with this amendment.

 

As a brief contextual note for this - I have a Corcitura character. I don't play him actively at the moment, but my point is my objection here is also grounded in experience. 

 

There's a few elements as to why an amendment like this would be a really bad move for role-play. For starters, I want to clarify that since MadOne PKd his pontiff, 'sporadic' testing has become a lot less common. Even in the height of MadOne's Canonist inquisitions, sporadic or 'spam' testing was mainly prevalent in places which were very publicly targeted by inquisitions (i.e., Kaethul, Hohkmat, etc.) and these inquisitions were generally extremely telegraphed by public treaties. In short, if you were caught in a sporadic test in a place like Kaethul, generally you only had yourself to blame because you deliberately put yourself in a situation where you were likely to be discovered. This isn't spamming or inorganic RP; on the contrary, it has a distinct narrative and timeline (place has a reputation for dark magic activities -> place becomes targeted by inquisitions).

 

As someone heavily involved during the height of these Canonist inquisitions under MadOne, very rarely was someone ever completely tested randomly. As MadOne himself often pointed out, suspicious characters tended to dress suspiciously (dark robes, hidden faces, black armour) which in turn made them targets for inquisitions. This is, again, an organic product of roleplay because these characters genuinely made no or minimal effort to hide the fact that they might, in fact, be evil-aligned. This will be a recurring theme for my criticism of the amendment.

 

As a side-note, while I know there are other 'inquisitions' and sources of testing (i.e. Celia'nor), I'll speak from the majority perspective of Canonism.

 

On a more general note, as you rightly imply, it's fairly known which places a dark CA is likely to be tested in. Ergo, by visiting a location of your own will, it's hard to see how you're not subjecting yourself to that risk. This doesn't deprive you of visiting that location, it just means a certain level of strategy is required if you want to remain undetected. Like I mentioned earlier, dressing in skins or disguises that fit in with the nation in question is generally going to spare you from a huge amount of suspicion - a lot of dark CA races neglect to this and (rightfully) stand out as a sinister character. This is a dynamic factor of dark CA roleplay that I think genuinely makes it very fun; if, for some reason, you have to go into a city of Canonists who hate and hunt vampyres, you should naturally be required to take steps to get around that.

 

"But I want to roleplay in [insert active city]!" is probably the main response to the above point, to which I answer - why are you playing a dark CA?

 

If you're driven to roleplay in a hub city and avoid the consequences of a dark CA that you voluntarily applied for, why did you undertake that CA in the first place? Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying "lol shouldn't have made a corcitura, idiot", because dark CAs are a huge source of narrative and activity on the server. What I'm saying is this: the risk of being tested and hunted is part of being a dark CA. It should be a part of your character, and it should be a driving force of your roleplay. Why on earth should that aspect be removed? Why on earth does it not make sense for you to have to plan to avoid suspicion if you're going to voluntarily go into a major hub city, especially if for no particular reason? 

 

I think this sacrifices a crucial part of what it means to be a dark CA and have your curse form a meaningful part of your character.

 

What this amendment is essentially advocating for is that the only way you should be realistically in trouble as a Corcitura is if you're caught red-handed in the fact of feeding on someone, and I think that's silly.

 

Spam testing, both in low-effort and good-faith RP forms, has organically evolved from roleplay. It's evolved from the prevalency and notoriety of Corcitura as a CA/FA. It's evolved from the rise of Canonist inquisitions across the land (which are now, however, on the decline - the Raguel/crusade stuff is not really targeted at rank & file dark CAs like this). It's evolved from many dark CA characters failing to actually take steps to engage with their CA, and instead expect themselves to be free of suspicion at nearly all times.

 

While I'm not saying this is what you're advocating for here, this amendment does represent a trend of what I see as "my character is a dark CA, but only when I want it to be". 

 

I'll also add that Corcitura is one of the last frontiers of dark CAs that is not already extremely difficult or impossible to test for. 

Heartbreaking that I agree with Xarkly.

 

I see sooooo often people taking magics and ca's that are just straight up evil/evil aligned and doing like SoL tavern rp with them because of the aurum nerf.

[Karina 1881]

6 hours ago, Xarkly said:

 

This is where the issue lies - I don't think you're conceptualising this correctly.

 

Why does someone look "off" in roleplay?

 

Is it because you've never seen them before? Is it because they're dressed strangely? In a world in which dark and hostile creatures are rampant, are these not justified reasons to be suspicious of strangers? This leads to a culture whereby townsfolk will regard strangers with scrutiny - they could be a vampyre, or much worse, bearing in mind that vampyres are a creature that is easily tested for, unlike the vast majority which can be basically hidden all the time.

 

Why is it undynamic that 'normal' characters will be wary of strangers in this setting? 

 

This is not a secret. Ergo, as a dark creature, you knowingly put yourself into situations whereby strangers are looked upon with distrust. So, where do you go from here? Like I indicated in my last example, dress is a big one. Maybe start by befriending some of the locals or other normal Descendants who could 'vouch' for you. Invent a story to get you into the city without being vetted by the guards - pretend you're sick, or injured, and need to be taken to the clinic (I pulled this exact move in Balian; I jumped out of the clinic, onto the roofs, and then fed on someone along on the walls). And, perhaps most importantly, maybe you should avoid going to cities full of people who want to kill you unless you have a compelling reason (if you're answer to this is "but I want to rp where's it active!" then you should make a non-dark CA persona to alternate between when you just want casual RP).

There's so many cooler ways of infiltrating societies as a vampyre (this is ignoring the fact a character who is already ingrained in society can just be turned), so advocating for "ok but what if you can actually never discover me unless I try to kill you" is definitely the lamest solution. 

 

Bearing in mind dark CAs are given fairly generous entitlements when it comes to lairs as a safe space where they can roleplay, so the natural duality is that it's dangerous to go visiting holy cities. Again, I'm not opposed to some leeway being shown, but this proposal is basically saying "unless a vampyre tries to kill you, they are totally risk-free". It's also not just vampyres, but it's a growing trend with a lot of CAs whereby they want to minimise their risk as much as possible. 

 

My issue with this is that it ultimately feels like the latest increment in a long saga of dark CAs campaigning to be able to access all hubs all the time without any risk of being caught, which I think frankly defeats the point of being a dark CA in the first place. 

 

 

xarkly i appreciate u but 'going into cities full of ppl who wants to kill you' is one thing and metaplay is another. There is a reason people hide their darkspawn MA/FA/CAs, because people meta. All of that good RP doesn't matter if the outcome is predetermined because they know OOCly what you are. When you start with the end, you can always find a way to justify your way to it.

Some cities are particularly bad about it. Celia'nor in particular. I recall one time in particular where they came to arrest someone, found no proof, still executed them - and then complained they couldn't snag their grimoire after they killed them. What am I supposed to do against that, exactly?

Another time someone walked up behind me, didn't really emote even being there - and I was just speaking with someone - immediately 'found' us when we went to a secondary location. 

I think it's reasonable to insulate these sort of things (FA/MA/CA) from bad-faith actors. Mori is not saying to make them immune to detection, just to make that detection harder. As for lairs as a safe space; I am unsure if there even IS an active corc lair. I've personally seen how difficult it can be to get one off the ground. 

Dark CAs are one thing. Fully transformative things that give additional benefits. Corc really isn't that. It's some cool flavor, and a ton of consequence. 

[squakhawk 14038]

5 hours ago, MadOne said:

The problem isnt the testing lol if you dress like ******* Sauron or Voldemort in a medieval slavic city obviously you are gonna get tested. Just literally if these CA goons dropped their weird gothic aesthetic and dressed like unassuming peasants, no one would spam test them anymore. U guys keep telegraphing ur evil alignment with ur aesthetics and get surprised when u get caught. Bad amendment

 

this skin got me spook tested in minitz when i made a real money gamble with st that id get spook tested at the gate in under 3 minutes without emoting anything

 

this was repeated three more times by some others that night until we got bored of it 

 

https://namemc.com/skin/4da7f9d2b85955dd

 

it was just metagaming by profiling

(but i also dont like this amendment)

[Venomous_Pup 2978]

I just find the way 'tests' in general have been employed incredibly lame and boring and never really lead to any meaningful RP afterwards. It feels like most of the time people just get treated like legit NPCs with no regards to the consequences of literally cutting someone open to test if they're a Dark Creature or w/e. If I had a dagger stuck through my hand IRL I would be out of work for sometime which means if I'm unable to secure some benefit to sustain me I do not get money, and I could not eat as a result, if any governments employed anything like this there would instantly be revolts but it is incredibly stacked against players due to how rules are, as you can pretty much just instantly evict people without much reason listed for it.

The main issue I just find and this extends past testing is select people have just 'optimized' RP and it has cascaded to EVERYONE else having to do so as well to avoid issues and just creates a terrible environment for people to make cool RP because they can instantly be blindsided with sub-par RP with extreme consequence. Its incredibly limiting to the potential of the world of LotC, as seemingly every character has read every part of every lore page regarding magics, this is a world where we have literal Demi God like beings that can be played by players, yet everything is basically catalogued in an efficient manner to only reflect what is playable, not what is possible. Even Non-Dark Spawn characters suffer and can be killed over it and then nothing happens afterwards, no one changes outside some character that despises the Church but can't do shit all about it because all the rules and protections put in place. Ultimately, I think the server would just be a better place if people just could cooperate with each other when it comes to these matters and abandon this mindset that seems intent on winning over trying to provide decent RP to both people, the amount of complex stories that could be told through this medium but will never see the light of day due to the OOC environment is sad. The community sees time and time again to put in effort is not worth it and you might as well just play cookie cutter good guy, bad guy types of characters and just treat the server like a game akin to OSRS Wilderness and PvP default for max fun rather than putting in the work for intricate stories or conflicts. Feel free to hit me up on Discord or w/e if anyone wants me to further explain view points or w/e.

[femurlord 3751]

On 10/14/2024 at 1:29 PM, satinkira said:

 

longterm narrative is a gaslight. almost all of these magical longterm narratives are done in small groups between important individuals (or alternatively direct friends of the spook) that ur average joe usually isnt privy to, meaning that the only darkspawn exposure most normal players get is darkspawn cas trying to mimic the gash meta by spamraiding for no tangible reason 

 

I think that if vampires want to make life easier for themselves in areas where spook-testing is common and advocate for such by saying, 'we'll make interesting narratives', they should first make interesting narratives where spook-testing isn't common

For once, I agree with satinkira

[Xarkly 17299]

17 hours ago, Karina said:

xarkly i appreciate u but 'going into cities full of ppl who wants to kill you' is one thing and metaplay is another. There is a reason people hide their darkspawn MA/FA/CAs, because people meta. All of that good RP doesn't matter if the outcome is predetermined because they know OOCly what you are. When you start with the end, you can always find a way to justify your way to it. 

 

Yes, they're absolutely two facets. The underlying logic of inquisitions against dark creatures will always make sense - it will always make sense that dark creatures should be wary when placing themselves in an environment fundamentally opposed to them, and it will always make sense that this forms a part of playing that character.

 

The issue, as you say, is when people get too silly and start outright metagaming. I'm not opposed to this amendment on the grounds of metagaming, but rather because I don't think dark magic/creatures should be risk-free when interacting with their mundane counterparts. I understand where you're coming from in saying this only makes detection harder and not impossible, but I actually don't think there's much of a difference - the only way to justify 'significantly cutting' someone is basically if you catch them in the act or have prior knowledge. Since aurum's nerf, its testing value has become basically completely useless because you can't justify a deep wound for just general testing. Much like with aurum, it does make sense to nerf salt, but it just flips the switch to the other extreme.

 

Because Corcitura only need to feed bi-monthly, my concern is that this would make it so that you can 'turn off' your CA/FA outside of these brief windows, which is my main beef.

 

Obviously, there's a middle-ground to be reached somewhere. I don't really know what it is, but my preference would be for Corcitura to have some sense of progression restored (i.e. going from an FA -> CA after the 3 month curing period is over), because this would justify a lot of the objective weaknesses Corcituras have right now. I know ST will say "well it's a feat!!!" and "um well siliti didn't work so that means no other vampyre CA will ever work again", but that's obviously not really a helpful observation. 

 

__

 

As an extra bit of yap, I do think it's important to acknowledge the rift that exists between magic communities in general and 'low fantasy' human circles. This is a problem that goes much deeper to the routes of the server, and while it's definitely gotten a lot better over the last year or two, there's still very much a tangible polarization of "all humans are metagaming racists" vs. "all magic users are powergaming snobs". The reason I'm bringing this up is because, from experiencing each side of the fence, the rank-and-file of both sides tend to approach interactions defensively and prejudicial, and that translates into "ugh we better kill this guy before he hits us with a 1 emote atomic bomb spell" and "ugh here comes the metagaming humans, time to bail".

 

This obviously isn't the case for everyone, just those bad faithers on both sides of the fence. Even for those who do try to set an example, though, it's definitely challenging to break down that barrier. When myself and @MadOne used to spare a lot of dark characters we caught, it usually only served to blow up in our faces and our attempts to set up a storyline resulted in that dark character going back to exactly what they were doing before, with the added advantage that they would say "hey I'm cool with the church now" to exempt themselves from further IRP suspicion. This happened probably 4/5 times. 

 

It's not necessarily bad faith for them to do this, but the frequency at which it happened made it genuinely very difficult to stay motivated to try progress crusader/inquisition RP. There's a good possibility that's because maybe the efforts we made weren't enough, but that's more or less the sentiment that was left at the end. 

 

It's a tough nut to crack since, like I said, it's a real deep-rooted issue for the server and it was one of the things that Canon Adherence hoped to address. I do think the gap between magic and non-magic is gradually improving (especially when compared to how it used to be), so with any luck this issue will fade in time, but I think the prejudicial context is worth noting. At the end of the day, it's an uphill battle to try make that change, and I hope the next generation has better luck at it. 

[Pancho 4197]

On 10/14/2024 at 2:06 PM, satinkira said:

if ur that scared of generic goodguys who don't like fun and will irply go after ppl they oocly know are spooks then why would you ask to make it easier to go to the places stereotypically full of them

banned player, opinion irrelevant

[Morigung-oog 5697]

17 hours ago, squakhawk said:

 

this skin got me spook tested in minitz when i made a real money gamble with st that id get spook tested at the gate in under 3 minutes without emoting anything

 

this was repeated three more times by some others that night until we got bored of it 

 

https://namemc.com/skin/4da7f9d2b85955dd

 

it was just metagaming by profiling

(but i also dont like this amendment)

 

Work with me to make proper amendments I beg 

[Karina 1881]

5 minutes ago, Xarkly said:

 

Yes, they're absolutely two facets. The underlying logic of inquisitions against dark creatures will always make sense - it will always make sense that dark creatures should be wary when placing themselves in an environment fundamentally opposed to them, and it will always make sense that this forms a part of playing that character.

 

The issue, as you say, is when people get too silly and start outright metagaming. I'm not opposed to this amendment on the grounds of metagaming, but rather because I don't think dark magic/creatures should be risk-free when interacting with their mundane counterparts. I understand where you're coming from in saying this only makes detection harder and not impossible, but I actually don't think there's much of a difference - the only way to justify 'significantly cutting' someone is basically if you catch them in the act or have prior knowledge. Since aurum's nerf, its testing value has become basically completely useless because you can't justify a deep wound for just general testing. Much like with aurum, it does make sense to nerf salt, but it just flips the switch to the other extreme.

 

Because Corcitura only need to feed bi-monthly, my concern is that this would make it so that you can 'turn off' your CA/FA outside of these brief windows, which is my main beef.

 

Obviously, there's a middle-ground to be reached somewhere. I don't really know what it is, but my preference would be for Corcitura to have some sense of progression restored (i.e. going from an FA -> CA after the 3 month curing period is over), because this would justify a lot of the objective weaknesses Corcituras have right now. I know ST will say "well it's a feat!!!" and "um well siliti didn't work so that means no other vampyre CA will ever work again", but that's obviously not really a helpful observation. 

 

__

 

As an extra bit of yap, I do think it's important to acknowledge the rift that exists between magic communities in general and 'low fantasy' human circles. This is a problem that goes much deeper to the routes of the server, and while it's definitely gotten a lot better over the last year or two, there's still very much a tangible polarization of "all humans are metagaming racists" vs. "all magic users are powergaming snobs". The reason I'm bringing this up is because, from experiencing each side of the fence, the rank-and-file of both sides tend to approach interactions defensively and prejudicial, and that translates into "ugh we better kill this guy before he hits us with a 1 emote atomic bomb spell" and "ugh here comes the metagaming humans, time to bail".

 

This obviously isn't the case for everyone, just those bad faithers on both sides of the fence. Even for those who do try to set an example, though, it's definitely challenging to break down that barrier. When myself and @MadOne used to spare a lot of dark characters we caught, it usually only served to blow up in our faces and our attempts to set up a storyline resulted in that dark character going back to exactly what they were doing before, with the added advantage that they would say "hey I'm cool with the church now" to exempt themselves from further IRP suspicion. This happened probably 4/5 times. 

 

It's not necessarily bad faith for them to do this, but the frequency at which it happened made it genuinely very difficult to stay motivated to try progress crusader/inquisition RP. There's a good possibility that's because maybe the efforts we made weren't enough, but that's more or less the sentiment that was left at the end. 

 

It's a tough nut to crack since, like I said, it's a real deep-rooted issue for the server and it was one of the things that Canon Adherence hoped to address. I do think the gap between magic and non-magic is gradually improving (especially when compared to how it used to be), so with any luck this issue will fade in time, but I think the prejudicial context is worth noting. At the end of the day, it's an uphill battle to try make that change, and I hope the next generation has better luck at it. 

The bigger issue is that most people have a very big misunderstanding on HOW aurum works. There have been multiple cases where I've been aurum tested on Sermi (RIP) and they either emote it being a pinprick. Rarely have I ever seen it done to the degree that it is SUPPOSED to be. The only time was actually a rather entertaining interaction in the Holy See where she was aurum tested x6 times and almost passed out from blood loss. 

I definitely agree on your point with that extra yap. Obviously I started in Haense and my only introduction to magic was because I had people in those circles. Otherwise - I would have been blissfully unaware of a lot of it for a long time. The only thing that touched lore there, when I was a pink tag, was some guy doing meme-quality 40k RP. 

It is definitely an uphill battle. I think ultimately we're stymied with the fact that bad faith actors will always be bad faith. My mindset with this is to try and limit the opportunities they have for destruction on other rp. It really sucks to build up a plotline only for something to be skewed awry by metagaming / powergaming / etc, etc. 

I think most of it goes back to 'winning', and the company you keep. As much as I loved my interactions with you, I had a LOT of issues with the rest of the Canon church that made me distance myself from roleplaying around that group. Unfortunately in many such cases, that leads to just creating an echo box that helps no-one. I've been very careful to avoid that - but I have seen it in other communities. 

Long-term, I think the best solution is definitely to offer Corc some form of progression. Have it start subtle, and then grow more agitated to testing methods when it feels more thematically appropriate. I.E - maybe they don't react to aurum or salt nearly as much until they progress into the next tier of FA/MA/CA/Whatever happens with vampires. 

It's unfortunate that in most cases, while people do present as good faith; you have to protect yourself from the bad faith actors. Even if it's only in 1 in 20, the impact an individual can have in some cases can ruin months of storyline with very little way to interact with it otherwise.

To borrow your term and yap a bit more, another big issue is that so many encounters just end in death. Rarely have I seen instances of characters being given legitimate chances to grow. It's just 'grr darkspawn kill them!'. I recall when @ibleesiantaught some of the Haensers that you can, in fact, push them to give information that might lead you to bigger targets instead of just stabbing them to death. Many people treated it like it was some grand revelation.  

Lots of points to consider on all sides, for sure. I hope it doesn't read as me rejecting your concerns outright, I've always appreciated your RP and willingness to talk on the matter! 

[Benleft 2578]

2 minutes ago, Karina said:

FA/MA/CA/Whatever happens with vampires.

STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT!!! Greater vampires are a HONEYPOT!!! STOOOOOOOP IT!!! STOP POSTING!!! STOP IT!!!