Imperial Leaders on the OOC side

[Wolfy-D 467]

     I am going to start off by saying that this will likely become heated because of my recent conversations in the mod discord general channel, but I ask that everyone please be respectful and not act like a child trying to win an OOC argument.
      Now that's out of the way, let's talk about why the imperial leadership and high ranking people in the empire act like such children when interacting with the other side OOCly (and I'm not just saying this as my personal belief, i sent my friend screenshots of what they were saying and his reaction was "such goddamn toddler behavior" after the first 2) my personal belief is that they should not be rude and act childish OOCly ever, and even if they have any problem with someone else's criticism they should at least have the courtesy of not responding immediately with trolls and rage bait.   
    Now the screenshots I send will not have the full story, but i will be willing to answer any questions about my point of view and you can see the entire argument in the mod discord general channel (here is a link to it that should work, i do not intend on hiding anything I've said even if it makes my case better https://discord.gg/hthwUgznp3)   
    So this is mostly just me asking, why do you all think that their leadership act more like children than me, someone who is 16, on an OOC level that should not be allowed for anyone, let alone the leaders of the largest nation on LOTC at this time. And also what similar stories do you have regarding these people and their actions similar to mine?
     
     
     
    Here are all the screenshots of a few of the unwarranted and childish things that were said to me after I tried voicing my opinion

Spoiler

 

[Werew0lf 24180]

Shut up.

[Haseroth 1740]

Cannot believe werew0lf would say mask is off mask if off im bat faith

[Shadowy 104]

At least he's being honest. 

[Reckless Banzai Screamer 15456]

In 2003, 50 cent was quoted in the song “Patiently Waiting” off his classic major label debut “Get Rich or Die Tryin’” reciting the lyrics “You know you shouldn't throw stones if you live in a glass house (Yeah) And if you got a glass jaw, you should watch your mouth,” This first bar is a renowned English idiom against the hypocrisy of one’s words with the second bar being a forewarning by Curtis James Jackson III to the aforementioned individual to not deal what they cannot handle. Today the Queens Borough rapper is a successful multi-millionaire actor, television producer and business mogul.
 

 

[ScreamingDingo 20568]

13 hours ago, Wolfy-D said:

     I am going to start off by saying that this will likely become heated because of my recent conversations in the mod discord general channel, but I ask that everyone please be respectful and not act like a child trying to win an OOC argument.
      Now that's out of the way, let's talk about why the imperial leadership and high ranking people in the empire act like such children when interacting with the other side OOCly (and I'm not just saying this as my personal belief, i sent my friend screenshots of what they were saying and his reaction was "such goddamn toddler behavior" after the first 2) my personal belief is that they should not be rude and act childish OOCly ever, and even if they have any problem with someone else's criticism they should at least have the courtesy of not responding immediately with trolls and rage bait.   
    Now the screenshots I send will not have the full story, but i will be willing to answer any questions about my point of view and you can see the entire argument in the mod discord general channel (here is a link to it that should work, i do not intend on hiding anything I've said even if it makes my case better https://discord.gg/hthwUgznp3)   
    So this is mostly just me asking, why do you all think that their leadership act more like children than me, someone who is 16, on an OOC level that should not be allowed for anyone, let alone the leaders of the largest nation on LOTC at this time. And also what similar stories do you have regarding these people and their actions similar to mine?
     
     
     
    Here are all the screenshots of a few of the unwarranted and childish things that were said to me after I tried voicing my opinion

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hey,

So the context here really focuses on that you are accusing someone who is actively trying to create roleplay that they are genuinely destroying people and making them leave OOCly because of their abusive actions. To defend Werewolf, the accusations are constantly thrown to him that he is extremely OOCLY manipulative and actively ruining the server by those around the dwarven/coalition sphere. It is extremely disheartening to be on a side where you are actively roleplaying and creating depth and nuance, for people to genuinely accuse you of destroying everything and making it something that is much worse. Words and such of course are trolly on both sides and reflect this, but your genuine criticisms are unfounded attacks against a group that is making roleplay, even if your sphere does not “enjoy” it.

 

I dealt with this very issue where I had the dwarves during my world ending antag try to say I was personally destroying their nation when they lost the Hammer of Urguan and failed a few sieges via an event. I was threatened with doxxing and ddosing through multiple avenues and was also branded a terrible roleplayer for creating an experience I believe that people did enjoy. It ******* sucks to sit in those shoes and it’s an absolute spit in the face to werewolf for the effort he has placed in to maintaining a large playerbase, keeping them active AND providing content to the server. It genuinely baffles me that those who throw stones don’t expect one thrown back at him. There needs to be maturity between the playerbases, but I think with recent actions it shows that people have dropped the ball all around.

 

[Crevel 7557]

I think if we made a forum thread for every immature thing a nation leader has "done", it would be pages long. That doesn't necessarily excuse immature behaviour, but you're making it seem like such an individual problem when there isn't one. Dwarven leadership has its immature moments just like any other. I think this recent warclaim was a really good example of that. Wasting the time of close to 200 people, only for people to make quips about why it's okay because "Empire bad". While I think that Werew0lf could be making efforts to be acting more seriously, he is not bound by any obligation to as long as he isn't breaking any rules. We are all playing a roleplay server on Minecraft where we explore fictional stories and get angry at each other in the process. We are all immature and childish for still being here.

I think that the reality is that people don't actually care about how Werew0lf acts and what he says. The problem people have is that he leads a realm that some people hate and as its foremost representative he becomes an individual they can attach any criticism to whether it's valid or not. I think there are some concerns that could be had about the nature of an empire, but I think the claims that the empire is somehow destroying people's roleplay and getting into an outrage about the empire is out to get them is really silly. You've shown a similar disconnect and when I've pointed out that there was no substance behind your argument, you tried to distance yourself from your prior point to try to make a new one. You want to hate for the sake of hating. Werew0lf has been one of the few players in recent times that I would confidently say is playing their character in a way that puts roleplay foremost rather than putting some OOC agenda forward. Not too long ago and it probably is still to some extent, it was being claimed that the empire was making an effort to get dwarves shelved. It's a total disconnect from reality and pure cope. I have zero doubts that if there was a human kingdom at odds with a dwarven empire, the dwarves would be doing the very same thing that the empire is doing now.

 

People need to stop being so attached over things that exist on a Minecraft server. If you care so much about being trolled and ragebaited on a Minecraft server, I think that you should leave the internet and focus on the real world.

 

[Tide1 4535]

The amount of "get ragebaited" and "touch grass" I saw from this side, following yesterday's troll warclaim, only to now (, and in those chats this post is referring to,) have that very same group of people roll over to play victim is ridiculous. | Imperial leadership can't make fun of their enemy, that's our thing! It is unbecoming of a staff member not to be serious at all times! | Get ragebaited idiot! Don't take Lotc so seriously! |

 

It is impossible to win with idiots like you, and I can guarantee you that nothing on all of Lotc will motivate a player more to engage in bad faith rp than having their genuine time and effort put into RP-narratives, falsely branded as "bad faith roleplay" and ignored. It is disrespectful to the person pushing roleplay, and it's disrespectful to the core roleplay philosophies of Lotc, the ones you displayed when applying to this server. Frankly, I grow tired of pretending that you people are here to roleplay. And fortunately, the best way to combat the current server-narrative is by roleplaying with it.

 

My roleplay server isn't just your OOC hangout space.

[Random 1690]

Werew0lf called be bad words despite me being an Imperial patriot, now expatriot. Narvak oz Urguan.

[Tav 4336]

i truly don't understand why people on this server are so comfortable telling others "your actions are making people leave the server". you want so badly to gain the moral high ground because the people you mention either hold their roleplay too closely for their own good, or were already one foot out the door in the first place. 

[Nectorist 12869]

I won't put other people's words into your mouth, but it does need to be understood that abrasive attitudes and back-and-forth insults are generally par for the course in an environment like this, and I can bring up years' worth of things people have said that is MUCH worse than pretty much anything WW has said.

 

Now, the counter-argument here might be "well it doesn't matter what people said in the past, this is about what's being said now," but even in this case, I'll just be real, WW's comments generally fall in the "rough trolling to being a mild dickhead" range. Not liking someone being rude is reasonable enough grounds to not want to interact directly with them, but WW isn't going into people's DMs or directing harassment towards them behind the scenes. He's really only done this in the public setting, almost always when people have started an argument, and it's basically never gone beyond that.

 

The easiest part about this is that it is very easy to not engage OOCly, or if you do, give the same sort of thoughtful critique that you expect out of them. Making your first comment an accusation that the Empire is acting in bad-faith and driving people off the server is just inviting confrontation. Respect is a two-way street, and there are several examples I can point to of people who brought up legitimate concerns in a well-reasoned manner and were met with the same decency that they extended first.

[trinn 5128]

 

the comfortability of players to generalise whole communities or groups based on preconceptions or the actions of a few baffles me. Both sides do this -- and, arguably, this is a consistent culture on LoTC that has been here since I played pre 2019. 

 

On the matter of OOC conduct -- If they have poor attitudes OOCly, you are free to dislike them. And if you dislike them, do not interact with them in OOC and walk away. But you are not free, I'd argue, to begin labling an entire group and community with your finger in accusation and demand people tell stories, rumours or otherwise in public to shame them. That's how echo chambers of vitriol and genuine malice comes from. Werew0lf does not suddenly become kinder because you asked the LoTC populace to shit talk his councillors and fellow leaders; and the LoTC community doesn't gain anything from it besides more doomering.

 

Ignore him and block him is my advice. Otherwise, please do not use the LoTC forums as a platform to ask players to hate on each other. You are just feeding into the culture of fearmongering.

 

It was a frustrating day, and the take away from that mod chat was not to further the frustration and anger into the forums. 

[Unwillingly 18096]

why is it perfectly okay for you to say things like "people are quitting because of you, they're holding the server hostage, you're a shithead" and everything else people have said 500 times before, but when someone is dismissive and trolls in response you're like baffled by it? js ive been in those shoes to a lesser extent and you guys need to think for a second about why people act the way they do

 

to put this into perspective, if it was only one person saying these things about another player, it would easily warrant a major harassment ban, but because its multiple constantly making these accusations nobody can realistically get in trouble, and the people who are the target of these posts are made to just deal with it

 

 

[Wolfy-D 467]

6 hours ago, Werew0lf said:

Shut up.

if you cant be mature and actually take part meaningfully without being rude, don't respond to this anymore and don't talk to me.

 

6 hours ago, Reckless Banzai Screamer said:

In 2003, 50 cent was quoted in the song “Patiently Waiting” off his classic major label debut “Get Rich or Die Tryin’” reciting the lyrics “You know you shouldn't throw stones if you live in a glass house (Yeah) And if you got a glass jaw, you should watch your mouth,” This first bar is a renowned English idiom against the hypocrisy of one’s words with the second bar being a forewarning by Curtis James Jackson III to the aforementioned individual to not deal what they cannot handle. Today the Queens Borough rapper is a successful multi-millionaire actor, television producer and business mogul.
 

 

i would highly suggest you read this rule next time before you shitpost in here "6- Keep discussions on topic, and refrain from posting videos, memes or other content that may distract from the topic at hand" 

 

6 hours ago, ScreamingDingo said:

So the context here really focuses on that you are accusing someone who is actively trying to create roleplay that they are genuinely destroying people and making them leave OOCly because of their abusive actions. To defend Werewolf, the accusations are constantly thrown to him that he is extremely OOCLY manipulative and actively ruining the server by those around the dwarven/coalition sphere. It is extremely disheartening to be on a side where you are actively roleplaying and creating depth and nuance, for people to genuinely accuse you of destroying everything and making it something that is much worse. Words and such of course are trolly on both sides and reflect this, but your genuine criticisms are unfounded attacks against a group that is making roleplay, even if your sphere does not “enjoy” it.

i understand where you are coming from here, but if he cannot respond without making rude remarks or acting like a child, or just ignore it which is as easy as not looking at that conversation, he is not fit to lead a nation that is 75% of the entire server.

 

7 hours ago, ScreamingDingo said:

I dealt with this very issue where I had the dwarves during my world ending antag try to say I was personally destroying their nation when they lost the Hammer of Urguan and failed a few sieges via an event. I was threatened with doxxing and ddosing through multiple avenues and was also branded a terrible roleplayer for creating an experience I believe that people did enjoy. It ******* sucks to sit in those shoes and it’s an absolute spit in the face to werewolf for the effort he has placed in to maintaining a large playerbase, keeping them active AND providing content to the server. It genuinely baffles me that those who throw stones don’t expect one thrown back at him. There needs to be maturity between the playerbases, but I think with recent actions it shows that people have dropped the ball all around.

I agree here about where you compliment him for his efforts to keep the IC good and active, but that effort should not allow him to act like this on an purely OOC level.

 

6 hours ago, Crevel said:

I think if we made a forum thread for every immature thing a nation leader has "done", it would be pages long.

I agree, it would be way too long for the forums to handle. but this post is around Werewolf and other high ranking members treat everyone else's opinions like a joke which causes other people to think it is okay.

 

6 hours ago, Crevel said:

Dwarven leadership has its immature moments just like any other.

I agree, the dwarven leadership is probably one of the most immature groups on the server when it comes to the things they do in VCs. however the dwarves are a close group of friends who are friendly on an OOC level and almost never mean anything they say, and everyone else they are talking to know it. what makes the imperial leadership different is it becomes really hard to tell when they are joking or just straight up being rude, and they do it to everyone else, not just their friends.

 

6 hours ago, Crevel said:

he is not bound by any obligation to as long as he isn't breaking any rules.

I know, but if you were to look at this rules right here "Do not troll or bully other members of our community in-game, on the forums, or over Discord." he is actively admitting to breaking rules by agreeing he is trolling. so maybe you guys should reread the rules before you keep arguing your side.

 

6 hours ago, Crevel said:

Werew0lf has been one of the few players in recent times that I would confidently say is playing their character in a way that puts roleplay foremost rather than putting some OOC agenda forward.

I agree, I've enjoyed the way he is playing his character even though I've never interacted with the character and think he is doing that very well. but once again i have a problem with how he acts OOCly and that has nothing to do with RP he does.

 

6 hours ago, Crevel said:

You've shown a similar disconnect and when I've pointed out that there was no substance behind your argument, you tried to distance yourself from your prior point to try to make a new one.

you pointed out that 1 of my arguments had little actual proof, which i didn't have because i was angry at the time and wasn't thinking 100% clearly. but now here is some instances i can think of. 

One of the newest dwarves Dorin Starbreaker went with a mercenary company to Alba (i don't know the specifics but this is what I've been told) within minutes of a random guard speaking to him there were around 10 guards to showed up, called PVP, and killed them all with almost no RP.

my own personal experience from very late Aevos, i was on my orc just orcing around in the empire, with all the roleplay of "*draws sword and points it at the orc" followed by #looc PVP? and the 10 other guys there immediately agreeing and just like that I was told to /d20 because i didn't have any PVP gear and had no way of getting it. So 10 deaths later I eventually shelved the character because imperials couldn't give me the courtesy of having an okay death through CRP even after I told them i would PK if they did that.

And 1 third example of the empires actions effecting someone I know, which doesn't exactly follow the original point but is close enough. someone loosely knew cried when they heard the empire was reverting the tile back to its unbuilt land because they had builds there that held actual emotional value to them through the RP they've done.

 

7 hours ago, Crevel said:

People need to stop being so attached over things that exist on a Minecraft server. If you care so much about being trolled and ragebaited on a Minecraft server, I think that you should leave the internet and focus on the real world.

No I wont leave, and if your only advice is to leave than it supports my point of the empire making people leave the server.

 

4 hours ago, Tide1 said:

The amount of "get ragebaited" and "touch grass" I saw from this side, following yesterday's troll warclaim, only to now (, and in those chats this post is referring to,) have that very same group of people roll over to play victim is ridiculous. | Imperial leadership can't make fun of their enemy, that's our thing! It is unbecoming of a staff member not to be serious at all times! | Get ragebaited idiot! Don't take Lotc so seriously! |

 

It is impossible to win with idiots like you, and I can guarantee you that nothing on all of Lotc will motivate a player more to engage in bad faith rp than having their genuine time and effort put into RP-narratives, falsely branded as "bad faith roleplay" and ignored. It is disrespectful to the person pushing roleplay, and it's disrespectful to the core roleplay philosophies of Lotc, the ones you displayed when applying to this server. Frankly, I grow tired of pretending that you people are here to roleplay. And fortunately, the best way to combat the current server-narrative is by roleplaying with it.

 

My roleplay server isn't just your OOC hangout space.

I do interact with it, I interact with it a lot. and once again my problem has nothing to do with the RP way things are being handled. My problem is the way things are being done on the OOC side that is making the RP unenjoyable for many.

 

1 hour ago, Tav said:

i truly don't understand why people on this server are so comfortable telling others "your actions are making people leave the server". you want so badly to gain the moral high ground because the people you mention either hold their roleplay too closely for their own good, or were already one foot out the door in the first place. 

This is why i mentioned the OOC side of things are making people leave. As far as I can tell, the OOC side is the reason most people are leaving at this point.

 

1 hour ago, Nectorist said:

I won't put other people's words into your mouth, but it does need to be understood that abrasive attitudes and back-and-forth insults are generally par for the course in an environment like this, and I can bring up years' worth of things people have said that is MUCH worse than pretty much anything WW has said.

 

Now, the counter-argument here might be "well it doesn't matter what people said in the past, this is about what's being said now," but even in this case, I'll just be real, WW's comments generally fall in the "rough trolling to being a mild dickhead" range. Not liking someone being rude is reasonable enough grounds to not want to interact directly with them, but WW isn't going into people's DMs or directing harassment towards them behind the scenes. He's really only done this in the public setting, almost always when people have started an argument, and it's basically never gone beyond that.

 

The easiest part about this is that it is very easy to not engage OOCly, or if you do, give the same sort of thoughtful critique that you expect out of them. Respect is a two-way street, and there are several examples I can point to of people who brought up legitimate concerns in a well-reasoned manner and were met with the same decency that they extended first.

You have good points, and I agree that respect is a two way street. That is why I have stopped respecting WW because it is clear he does not respect anyone else unless they act like an angel in the first interaction they have, and he does not allow any sort of respect to form after that point.

 

1 hour ago, trinn said:

I'm not going to touch on Imperial Leadership in specific; rather, I'm going to point out the current culture of the LoTC community that I vehemently discuss against when it comes up. Specifically, the comfortability of players to generalise whole communities or groups based on preconceptions or the actions of a few. Both sides do this -- and, arguably, this is a consistent culture on LoTC that has been here since I played pre 2019. 

You are right, and I am sorry. i was intending to avoid accusations of targeting specific people as it is against the rules but there are others in the imperial leadership that either are not rude, or I do not know of. But at the same time if i were to name names I do not think I would have the time or effort to name everyone who acts like this.

 

1 hour ago, trinn said:

LoTC is not going to always be providing Roleplay that goes your way, but the people or communities behind these antagonistic characters does not at all deserve to be labled and characterised poorly for the roleplay that they do. It is less prevalent on your post, but I've noticed it become a recurring trend in the past few months in Status updates and post alike where people hold Werew0lf, or just the Imperial side in accusation that their roleplay is making the server a less desirable space because of ... their roleplay on a roleplay server. I am sorry if the antagonistic nature of their roleplay is something you do not enjoy, but a part of LoTC's virtue is knowing that just as you are free to Roleplay as you desire; so are they. 

I personally (though I do not speak for anyone else) love the conflict side of RP, as well as fighting in RP weather it be characters arguing or just actual CRP battles. I also enjoy the story they are reaching for regardless of how they are acting OOCly or go about the narrative.

 

1 hour ago, trinn said:

On the matter of OOC conduct -- If they have poor attitudes OOCly, you are free to dislike them. And if you dislike them, do not interact with them in OOC and walk away. But you are not free, I'd argue, to begin labling an entire group and community with your finger in accusation and demand people tell stories, rumours or otherwise in public to shame them. That's how echo chambers of vitriol and genuine malice comes from. Werew0lf does not suddenly become kinder because you asked the LoTC populace to shit talk his councillors and fellow leaders; and the LoTC community doesn't gain anything from it besides more doomering.

Once again I am sorry for combining the good ones with the bad ones. But I am not telling anyone to shame or shittalk anyone else, in fact I specifically told EVERYONE (looking at you Werewolf) to be kind and respond productively and my intention was to point out their behavior because it seems like half the player base is defending them without actually knowing what is going on from the perspective of the people who are actually trying to make the OOC side of the server better.

 

9 minutes ago, Unwillingly said:

why is it perfectly okay for you to say things like "people are quitting because of you, they're holding the server hostage, you're a shithead" and everything else people have said 500 times before, but when someone is dismissive and trolls in response you're like baffled by it? js ive been in those shoes to a lesser extent and you guys need to think for a second about why people act the way they do

 

to put this into perspective, if it was only one person saying these things about another player, it would easily warrant a major harassment ban, but because its multiple constantly making these accusations nobody can realistically get in trouble, and the people who are the target of these posts are made to just deal with it

 

 

I'm not gonna actually respond to this because I've made my points on this in responses to other people, but I am adding you to my response because this is the kind of friendly debate that actually explains something about the other side without being full of insults or just completely repeating others opinion. good job for being the 1 out of the 12 total responses that understood most of my points and made an understandable counterpoint.

 

 

And finally a last response to anyone I missed, I'm sorry but you just made a meme response and didn't say anything meaningful enough to respond to.

[wowj 9747]

they let me shotcall the warclaim that was pretty awesome i dont think they are toxic people