What To Do About Villain Applications? Community Poll

[John Ivory 4547]

Upon reading over arguments in not only this thread but others, I have decided to use my vote to remove villain applications.

[Cyndikate 2303]

I have an idea!

 

:Let's create a character named Farmer Billy, make a VA with every evil listed and come up with a contrived reason why you need those evils, because after all, you'll never know when you'll need these evils two weeks from now, cause if you don't you'll be standing on a brick wall! By the time you actually may need those evils, your RP comes to a halt. Apply for them just in case.

 

 

If you do not have 15-30 minutes to fill out a short form, I wonder how:

1.) You have time to play on this server at all.

2.) You want to prove you're not just playing for your own little conquests.

 

If you're such a busy man, you probably don't have the time to provide good RP either which is perfectly fine - just means you're not getting a free VA.

 

Would like to add, it's not just 15 minutes! It's 15-30 minutes of writing the application, submitting it on the forums, and waiting 7-12 hours for a VAT member to even look at it. Which during that time, your character still can't do anything villainous. :D

[mmat 7460]

Lym, the sparkling White Knight of VA's. What a hero

[Dalek348 1962]

The reason the current antagonist got flamed so badly when they were first released is because they didn't need VAs and some of them didn't know what it actually means to be a villain in the first place. Tell me what you want but from my point of view, half of the antagonists wouldn't have been accepted as villains in the first place with the old VA system.

 

I was made Undead before villain applications were implemented. Same with a couple of other Undead. Because we did not fill out an application form did not mean we didn't know how to roleplay a villain or what it meant.

 

In fact, I think we probably roleplayed a great deal better without a villain application system lingering over us.

[Geo 1415]

I am someone who is heavily involved in both the magic team and the villain application team.  I spend most of my time around the magic system and the villain application system and I feel very different about the two.  People don't seem to understand.  Magic applications were removed to make our server more enticing to new players.  To move closer to that RPG element the community seems to crave.  To balance magic with other forms of combat and give people the freedom to do what they want.  

Why did we go ahead with this?  

At the end of the day magic is simply used as a form of combat, just like swords and bows are.  You don't need an archer application, nor do you need a swordsman application.  Magic can also be used freely out of combat, just like any other form of pastime such as smithing or fletching, which again you don't need to make applications for.  We understand this and feel that the magic system did serve its purpose for the time it needed to, but is a little worn out and is in need of refreshment.  We are allowing players to have the freedom of magic because they already have the freedom to do similar things.

 

Now why have we not done this yet with VAs?

Saying that it makes sense to remove VAs because MAs were removed does not make any sense and is just a blind cry for the removal of something without any justification.  Asking something to be removed isn't feedback, and we can't take your feedback into account if you don't give us feedback to begin with.  We need constructive criticism.  

 

The villain application still heavily carries out its purpose, where as the magic system didn't.  The villain application system is designed to place restrictions on the playerbase.  This may make players feel oppressed, sure, but it is needed oppression.  These restrictions are in place to make sure that the standard of role-play on the server is better than what it would be without the system.  Some players say for example that back before the VA system was made, it was far better.  Keep in mind please that this was only a small portion of the server's history and it has been two entire years since then.  There has been a villain application for far longer than there has not.  The VA system restricts you from stealing so players do not go into someone's house while they are offline and take everything from them, but instead requires them to do it through role-play.  The VA system restricts players going up and stabbing someone in the throat because they thought it would be a fun idea, and instead requires them to have a realistic reason to take someone's life.  It is things like this that protect our standard of role-play on the server.  People abide by the VA system because they don't want to get their VA taken away from them, and that is fine, because it works.  This keeps people role-playing, and whilst it slightly restricts what you can do, it does this to keep the game fair for everyone.

 

People often put forward complaints about how the villain application system is so taxing.  I understand that writing applications is not always the most exciting thing, but it is necessary.  Being able to flesh out a character and show you understand how to role-play with fairness for everyone in mind proves to us that you can be trusted with freedom to commit villainous acts.  Anyone can role-play, but not everyone should be granted the ability to steal and murder people.  It slightly restricts some players to pay for an overall higher standard of role-play, and I personally think that is worth it.  Many people say that the VA system is punishing players.  I don't see how it is punishing you, and maybe you've chosen to use the wrong word.  It is certainly not a punishment for players that have to write VA's, its an opportunity.  

 

The villain application has gotten progressively easier, and since then it has began failing to do the job it is supposed to do: protect our server from a low, trolly standard of role-play.  The only thing that could hurt that goal more than making the system easier would be removing it entirely, which would be the bane of any kind of villainous role-play acts.  Villainous activities should be committed in moderation, because more than not they present a negative impact on another player, without no fault of their own.  This is why certain actions are restricted, so that there is a balance between your own enjoyment and that of everyone else.  In Asulon the villain application was much higher, and it is back then that we saw a better standard of role-play from players here.  

 

Rather than jumping on the bandwagon of 'remove vas!' because its an enjoyable thing to do with your current freetime, you should think hard about the direction of our server and whether or not we should be making the application continuously easier or maybe harder instead.  The villain application system should review someone's ability to flesh out a character and their responsibility to keep the environment of LoTC fun and fair.  It doesn't do that anymore, it only reviews their ability to mindlessly answer 'yes' to a couple of questions, and off you go.  This rather negative effect to the villain application system was the communities choice, where they wanted it to become easier, and easier and easier, which ultimately only subtracted from the real goal of the villain application and its support for the server.  We as a staff team want to listen to your thoughts and opinions, but we have to make good judgement within ourselves of whether or not your ideas will make something better, or make it worse.  This is why the villain application system does not change when people snap their fingers, because right now it needs repaired, not broken.

[Dalek348 1962]

.

 

You cannot continue to cling on to an old and broken system, and you should not create deluded ideas about positives the villain application system brings to the server like you have just done.

 

What did people say about RP default? 'It protects us from trolly/bad roleplay and help keeps the server from falling into chaos'. It has been removed and those people have since been proven wrong.

 

What did people say about the magic app system? 'It protects the server from bad magic RPers and without it the server will be mayhem'. And once again this doomsday has yet to materialise.

 

I think it is clear that if the right decision to remove villain applications is made, it will pay off and you will once again be proved wrong. Yes it is a gamble, but when the server is in the state it currently is in, you need to make gambles in order to preserve the server.

[ski_king3 0]

-snip-

 

Geo, I understand where you're coming from, but... I simply think you're incorrect here.

 

Yes, with the previous, longer VA format, perhaps it was a slightly better tool for keeping out poor villainous roleplayers in the past, but in reality, villainy has not significantly deteriorated since it was stripped down to its current form. The deterioration happened well before that change; people who don't RP villainy particularly well would simply continue applying until they were accepted, almost always occurring within three tries, whereas many who did not have the time/did not want to take the time to fill out the old VA (because let's be real, most people took 3-5 hours easily on their VA's) simply could not RP villainy. Someone killed your spouse, and you didn't catch them in the act? Well now you need to write up a VA and spend hours and hours before you can properly hunt them down. It didn't only halt people wanting to play villainous characters, but also the logical development of many characters. Given that it did not really filter out poor villainous RP, but did in fact filter out logical character development, it was evident a change was needed.

 

Now the VA has been simplified, so it takes between .5-2 hours to fill out. That's great, as only those who are exceedingly busy can explicitly say the app is still too arduous for them to fill out. However, the complaint that one must write up an application to maintain logical character development still stands as an issue that's hard to argue against. Likewise, I'd have to say that as of late, villainy has improved. I will admit, I think a part of this change has also been due to the shift to PVP default, but if you look at the stats, both ban reports regarding villainy and VA revokes have decreased since the shift to a simpler VA. There have only been 6 VA revokes in the two months since the switch, which is a significant decrease from before the change. What you said entirely contradicts what is happening, Geo; these changes have led to improved villainy in every quantifiable way to justify it, at least as far as I can think of.

 

So now, I suppose I should enumerate why I think the removal of VA's will help the server. Essentially, my expectation is this:

1. For about 2 weeks, we'll see a ton of villains. After this 2 weeks, however, being a villain "won't be special anymore," and the amount of villainy will die down substantially.
2. Logical progression of one's character will be unhindered by a VA. No more writing several paragraphs about your character to hunt down a friend's murderer.
3. There will be more incentive for people to help poor villainous roleplayers improve, especially new players. Right now, people presume that if one has a VA, they are good roleplayer. If they are not, then for whatever reason, they are considered malicious, so people jump to the idea of BR's and VA revokes rather than helping them. This has been toned down somewhat, but the point is, without VA's/VAT, people will help people RP villainy more.
4. Those who refuse to RP villainy well will be culled IC'ly by players, as they do not need to write up an application to kill them.
5. Everyone can try to fend off known villains, whereas right now, many players can only fight known villains if they have the proper VA's or are provoked. This will also help to cut down on villainy.

I'm sure I forgot something, but basically, villainous RP will improve in quality, and decrease in quantity. It seems a bit counter-intuitive, but I'm pretty confident in this assertion, as are a lot of other players. My hopes are that the staff will see it this way as well, and make the right decision to eventually remove VA's. Perhaps in Asulon, they served their purpose, but in Anthos, they simply have not. It's not the fault of the VAT, as I think many of you have done a good job, but instead an inherent flaw in the system that has become more apparent as of late.

 

Anyways, feel free to debate/disagree, as I'm sure quite a few of you will. This is just largely my $0.02.

[Schneebo 1593]

Now my personally look on VAs is they are sort of good on paper but not in action. I've seen god awful RPers and are amazing writers and they recieve of VA. However you can have the exact opposite great rpers and horrible writers. A written application for villainy is a bit silly.

[Aislin 4354]

All you're doing by keeping VAs at this point is stopping new players from committing any evils. Everybody that currently plays on this server either A) Has a VA or B) Doesn't care enough to get one. VAs are super easy now, and most people don't even acknowledge their existence at this point.

 

Nobody asks for proof of VA. Nobody wants to write a VA. Nobody cares.

[Cyndikate 2303]

All you're doing by keeping VAs at this point is stopping new players from committing any evils. Everybody that currently plays on this server either A) Has a VA or B) Doesn't care enough to get one. VAs are super easy now, and most people don't even acknowledge their existence at this point.

 

Nobody asks for proof of VA. Nobody wants to write a VA. Nobody cares.

True but new players need to understand the rules before they even touch that VA. So if it's keeping new players from killing people willy nilly and stealing an entire chest, it might be doing its job.

[The Fact Core 511]

Vas...no sense after MAs were removed.

[Demotheus 651]

True but new players need to understand the rules before they even touch that VA. So if it's keeping new players from killing people willy nilly and stealing an entire chest, it might be doing its job.

Well if it's main purpose now is to keep people who have villain applications in check why not just make it so that you only need an account VA? 

[Bloomkip 164]

Villain Applications are a necessary evil on this server. They're difficult to get only because the Villain App Team needs to make sure that the people applying are able to provide good role play and their story fits together. I don't think we should just get rid of em because some people are angry that it is "hard" to get accepted. 

 

Edit: Also if you're accepted, you obviously read the rules.

Removing VAs will prevent new players from reading the rules and ultimately cause more headaches for others to enjoy their time on LOTC due to unfair rp.

 

All in all VAs provide order here on LotC and it should be more of a privilege than a right to play a villain. 

[Dalek348 1962]

True but new players need to understand the rules before they even touch that VA. So if it's keeping new players from killing people willy nilly and stealing an entire chest, it might be doing its job.

 

I think you should stop being so condescending to new players. They are not all mindless retards who wouldn't know a rule if it hit them in the face and just want to steal everything and ruin it for people. Give new players a bit of support and credit

[Geo 1415]

I'm sorry Ski, but simply saying that weakening the VA has made villainous RP better does not make it so simply because someone says it is.  I've seen first hand from monitoring the villain community how it has deterred from what it should be.  Every point I just made I stand completely fully behind.  The only other thing I can add is that most of you fail to realise how much you can do without a VA.  Go ahead and hunt down that person whom slaughtered your family member, because your examples of things you need VA's for, are things you don't need them for.  Remember, if we're to make a change to the server for the better, we are going to need all the help we can receive from you.  Don't just sit here and say.  "Sorry, this is bad."  Show us it is bad, bring it to our attention with screenshots if need be, because currently I see retracting anything from the villain application to be harmful to the server.  Some of you may want to go back and read my post, rather than assume its some hellspawn comment about taking away your freedom and skip over it.