The Same Old Mess: A Treatise On War On Lotc

[Chaqery 427]

 

Hello everyone. Before I begin this thread in earnest, I want to provide you with my credentials. In a typical post they wouldn't matter, but in a blatant attempt to establish pathos I feel it is nessecary to explain /why/ I have the background to make this sort of thing. To start, I've been roleplaying over various mediums for about 7-8 years. I began on Garry's Mod, where once upon a time I ran and owned several relatively successful communities with my very dear friends the now gone Sarlare, Sheumgal, and Skiddles. I've seen an incredible amount of drama (as is the nature of administrative positions in RP communities) and I'm sure made my fair share of mistakes. I joined LotC just over two years ago. I started as Baldir Toov, one of the founders and Captain of the now notorious Order of the White Rose. That being said, I'm sure it is no shock to you all then that the majority of my time on LotC has been spent in a military world. I've fought in my share of battles. Had my share of victories, and as a commander I've witnessed the politics that often drive war further than any amount of soldiers might.

-But I've also seen what warfare has become on LotC. It's not about roleplay anymore. It's about OOC relationships and absolutely ridiculous grudges held by a large part of the community over fueled by what was originally just an IC action, with no OOC hatred behind it. We have lost our way so much that we now consider the actions of a character the spiteful actions of a player. Is that not the mindset of immature children? Do we no long strive to provide quality roleplay in the form of conflict anymore?

Section I: The Murder of Roleplay

War fuels change. If you take one glimpse at any sort of history book it's glaringly obvious. If it wasn't for war, Napoleon would've made France a massive Empire. If it wasn't for war, the Native Americans would still control large parts of the United States. If it wasn't for war, Rome would've never been important. Charlemagne, King Arthur, Saladin, George Washington... all of these men would mean nothing. It is with that mindset that people on LoTC are not averse to war. War moves the plot along. It helps to create a living, breathing world in which we RP. It creates both tragedy and glory. Celebration and strife. In the hands of mature players, it can be one of the greatest gifts to the server.

But that's not what we've done, is it? And you can all point fingers at each other, but when it comes down to it, we're all responsible. We've slaughtered Roleplay in the name of war. We've reduced proud nations like the Orcs, Urguan, and Oren into little more than factionwarz areas. Through blatant violation of raid rules, we've turned cities, what were once meant to be bastions of RP, into pvp strongholds. Sure, the staff has handled the whole mess for the better part of half a year in a lackluster manner, but who are we to claim they are responsible? The staff is a moderation force. Not dictators. I understand the desire to blame those in power (and to be honest sometimes they fully deserve it. As a former staff member I definitely deserved it. We all did at times.) but at the end of it all, we are ALL responsible for having done this. Players, staff, LEADERS especially. Stop pointing fingers and take responsibility for your actions. I realize some of you are children, but if you're mature enough to roleplay you ought to understand the difference between an IC action and OOC hatred. And you shouldn't take everything that happens ICly as OOC. Let's look at my past for example. As Lord Inquisitor I was responsible for slaughtering the citizens of Salvus and burning the city to the ground. Do I hate Salvians? Nope. I have several friends that were Salvians at the time. Do they OOCly hate me for it? Nope. They realize my actions were the actions of my CHARACTER (Ooooo roleplay) and not those of my own person.

Section II: PvP default

We have this arguement all the time. It's silly really. I completely understand the desire for PvP default. It makes sense, in fact. With MC chat mechanics, you cannot possibly hope to fight any sort of real military engagement with RP. It becomes a mess instantly. But what have we really done by shifting to a PvP default? First of all, we've reduced most military factions to little more than a PvP club. There is little to no time in RP spent training or learning your role. Practice consists of PvP skirmishes. Fun, but only fun for so long. I'm not saying we should do away with it, but I think people really need to understand that it is totally possible to still RPly train men in formations, march them around, give speeches... camp life, anything. People still want military RP. Not just signing their name to some guild or guard force so that they can PvP all day. That only makes the death of RP so much worse.

And let's not even get started on the fact that there are literally entire groups who don't even RP. They're basically purely PvP players. If you're one of those, I cannot fathom why you stick around LotC. Or furthermore why the community or staff allow you to do so. You bring all of us down.

-And inevitably, many of you will go "BUT AEGIS HAD PVP DEFAULT AND IT WAS AWESOME."

The nicest thing I can tell you in that case is to sit down and shut up. Aegis seemed so greats to so many of you because so many of you were new to RP at the time.

tl;dr: Learn to balance RP with a PvP default. It's possible. It;s a crying shame that pvp default has killed the military RP. It's perfectly possible to retain it. If you're going to be a military leader, learn to actually do so. The server needs good leaders who can bring RP back to life in the militaries.

Section III: Lack of real War Rules.

Yes yes. There are "warclaims". Big deal. They're silly for the most part.

The moment war is declared, factions start raiding each other's capitals like maniacs. Does that make any sort of sense whatsoever? No. Never. Realistically you'd get slaughtered or run out of resources LONG before you reached their capital.

I'd like you all to take a look back at this:

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/90652-ooc-rules-dwarven-v-oren-conflict/

Do you know what that is? That's how a war ought to work. It's ordered, it keeps people mature, and it puts a realistic setting. It creates roleplay by forcing factions at war to RP and live in their war camps, instead of marching far past the front lines and then all the way back to their castle in one day. Did you know that several conflicts in medieval times ended just because both factions were tired of living in their crappy camps and wanted to go home? Yea. That's how war works. And it might work like that in LotC if we ever elected to adopt a more logical system. Instead we declare war and start doing ridiculous raids. Raiding palaces, capitals... things that ought to be off limits not only for the sake of making cities more RP-friendly, but also in bringing RP back to war.

We must do something to rectify this. Please, bring logical warfare to LotC. We need it. This is where staff members and nation leaders need to get off their asses and do something.

Conclusion

In summary, in my time here at LotC I've seen warfare go from bad to worse. We've killed any sort of RP that war is meant to bring. Through relying on pvp default as a crutch we've ruined military RP (which is silly because it's very easy to still RP military life and have pvp default) and because nobody seems to think logically anymore, wars are far-fetched in both means of combat and span of battlefield.

I implore all of you to consider the sections above, and strive to make yourself better. If you are a leader of any sort, take this thread very seriously. LotC's future depends on the decision of influential players and staff acting more mature and ensuring that we can all continue to wage war and have fun.

This is not a flame war thread, and I would implore any staff member that sees bits of flaming in response to promptly remove them. This is merely the tip of the iceberg of issues with LotC at the moment, and in lieu of someone else addressing it, I felt the need to at the very least get this off my chest.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[Aelu / Rel (Combustionary) 1540]

I don't think I've ever agreed with anything as much as I agree with this.

[Abeam 511]

Yep

[Lark 2227]

[Lago 2572]

The problem with most logical war systems (I've written three, possibly more, for LotC alone) is that they require people to follow them. They break down when people cheat and break the rules. And when players do, other players follow because that's the command structure of war. You can't just ban a whole army. How do you regulate things?

What we really need is a widespread attitude change, and that's something we can't do with a rule change or plugin. The set of rule changes that introducted noPvP regions in capitals and the removal of the rules on raiding was intended to shift war from rampant raiding and "you annoyed me OOC now watch me crush your nation" to the logical, RP-infused dramatic, structured and epic conflict RP you, I, and many others want. What we got were a few swift backtracks in response to player outcry, and ultimately we netted the addition of build regions and the removal of the raider cap.

 

The problem with this problem is I'm not sure anyone knows how to fix it.

[Bangi 104]

Ban the whole army.

[Hanrahan 2983]

Probably a small but radical Mog Ban on war for a couple of months, or at least, until the Fringe ends. No raids, no War. Let everyone settle down and see what peace is like, and that war RP isn't the ONLY rp.

 

Edit: Or bring back the undead.

[Lago 2572]

It's not a bad idea but it would need the backing of most of the nation leaders to work out.

[Treshure 5818]

The problem with most logical war systems (I've written three, possibly more, for LotC alone) is that they require people to follow them. They break down when people cheat and break the rules. And when players do, other players follow because that's the command structure of war. You can't just ban a whole army. How do you regulate things?

 

 

If both sides agree to it, their leaders of both sides can enforce it during the raid. You tend to follow things better when being criticized by your peers, not enemies.

[Ventusyr 233]

I think widespread attitude change isn't possible unless we establish new rules. I am ALL FOR a return to the war fronts, because this would definitely make roleplay out of war. The bad apples won't change their attitude, and this is possibly the best cure to our awful war situation because PvPers still get PvP and the war dynamic stays. It's a win-win for everybody, and might possibly maybe decrease the continuous stream of ban reports.

[Zebanamana 410]

Bring back Asulon's war claim system. That **** worked.

[Hanrahan 2983]

Bring back Asulon's war claim system. That **** worked.

It really did. Namely, as a Civilian, I never ever saw a raid ever.

[Helbolt 129]

Very well written post my friend.

 

 

 

 

If capitals should be safe, then why not just put no pvp areas at all capitals (mandatory) until the war evolves to a point where one or the other is in jeopardy?

[Alphalord 31]

I completely agree with this post, especially where military roleplay is dieing out. Haven't seen much of it for awhile.

[monkeypoacher 8055]

Finally we got someone mature enough to actually take on this subject. This hasn't been about "omg war is killing my are pee!" or "omg other side is being immature/hacking/whatever!", which is what I expected.

 

+1