My Proposal To Fully Unlock Alteration/transfiguration/whatever You Call It Once More

[Jistuma 1995]

Well, magics are locked right now because mostly of lore and guilds/groups associated with them.

 

Clerics are a group of mages that heal and combat darkness, so it would be weird if an evil person would just learn that magic, so it's locked.

Necromancers are a shady group that raises the dead, so it would be weird if really nice people knew how to do the magic, so it's locked.

Druids are lovers and protectors of nature, so it would be weird for someone who doesn't love or protect nature to have the magic, so it's locked.

Frost witches have a curse, so not having a curse and doing the magic would be weird, so it's locked.

Shades something, I don't remember

Shamans are almost tribal orcs which connect to the spirits, so it would be weird for an intelectal high elf to get i- **** that actually happened in times of the MAT. It's locked now.

[Sebasgann 232]

100% locked. I think that we need to weed out new players from more experienced players by teaching them the lore and the RP process. Not to mention when mages started sprouting up we don't know who knows magic for sure or who dont. That's why players should be guided through the Mages Guild.

 

If magic was 100% Unlocked then the purpose of a Mages guild would cease to exist, players would lose RP from participating in classes learning these spells, players would loose progression, and that would take out almost all the progression in being a mage. If everyone started as a T5 mage that would be absolutly dull and defeat the purpose. Imagine starting with 99 skills in runescape. What's the point.

 

But I feel as though not 100% of the spells should be learned souly from the mages guild. They should obtain majority, like a 60% marker of spells, while only teaching 45%. That way for players to learn the last 15% they have to immerse themselves in RP by apprenticing under a master mage. If the mage see the student worthy, he will teach him.

 

Along with teachings of spells from the mages guild they should also teach players how to behave, how to control magic, when to use it for good. That way a dark sector can grow, and that may be where some of the other magic is known, such as necromancy and other dark or secret arts.

 

Other magic can be learned throughout the world as well. Spells learned from a hermit, spell books found in dungeons, dropped from enemies, that way an economy can be based off of magic. Perhaps there are a number of magical artifacts, or components required, this can easily start magical shops here and there that sell spell books of varying rarity, or magical items of different values such as staffs or misc. goods.

[Aelu / Rel (Combustionary) 1535]

I would still think this is overtly strict, and would appreciate if you and the rest of the magic community would take their time to help those who offend instead of forcing other people to do it for you. 

 

As for Jistuma, you can do both lol. Why one or the other?? Just like regular combat these days, some people chose to rp combat or chose to pvp at some places. And if the magic is non-combat related why would it be mech standard if most mech standard magic is solely for combat lol?

As for strictness? I guess we'll have to just disagree, then. In my eyes, it's painfully eased. Though I've always been one for strict staff regulation and whatnot. I don't believe that playerbase is capable of regulating itself.

I do what I can to help players who do magic incorrectly, and in many cases it works. But there are also many situations where it doesn't.

Maybe my fears about the plugin are ill-placed, and if they are, that should fix the issue.

[DISCOLIQUID 1974]

100% locking

 

Cappy the system will be preventing players from mining, everything will be balanced with the skills plugin. You don't know magic? good, you don't know magic, now go learn it. You can't mind diamond? Of course you can't go practice on clay and stone. Players will have to level their skills, by using a wooden sword practicing until they've gained enough experience to be effective with a real sword, then later good enough to wield the greatest of swords.

 

You won't have to know intricate RP to know how to use a diamond sword since you can just practice, but it's essentially teaching yourself. But in terms of magic there is lore, and an intricate system that is being developed for the players.

This is a horrific idea that oppresses players into spending IRL time practicing what they want to know IC. It's awful. If I want to do something, I should be able to unless it blatantly affects others players fun. I am not going to be kind or tactful. If you want to restrict people's role-play with a skill system for any reason, you are killing the influx of new players.

[susitsu 870]

It does indeed devalue something when any troll can say they can do it...

[Elindor 654]

Much of the concepts behind transfiguration are about self discovery. I would have wanted to see it never be locked in the first place. Most of what people make with it is just gimmicky anyway, so there's no harm.

[ski_king3 0]

Well, it's clear this thread was harshly derailed while I was at work, but I suppose I'll give my two cents on the topic of locking/unlocking magic fully.

 

Basically, I feel like it's silly to have any magics locked. Locking magic does make magic more interesting, yes, but it does so in an artificial manner that's purely the result of OOC rules. If there are only a few people who can do something, they're bound to be interesting. However, it creates a disparity between those who have been lucky enough to have a lucky opportunity on this game and those who have not that leaves the lucky ones awed and the unlucky one's wishing they could have the same opportunities.

 

With the unlocking of magic, everyone is on an even playing field. Everyone can heal, everyone can throw fire, everyone can bring back the dead. When this is the case, you don't stand out by being the only group with a certain set of abilities, but instead how you use those abilities to compliment and define an otherwise interesting group. For example, if the abilities of druid magic were unlocked to everyone, my guess is that most druids would stay Druids. They're not just there because of the cool magic, but also because they enjoy the group and find the roleplay it provides separate from the magic interesting. Likewise, if war clericism and healing were totally unlocked, my guess is the Clerics would maintain their numbers. They're cool, lawful good characters that most people don't see, with unique and interesting roleplay that compels people to join aside from the magic. Magic ought to be a compliment to interesting roleplay, not a cause of it.

 

Likewise, those who cite the quality of magical roleplay as an argument for locking magic once more are misinformed. As a person who oversaw about 30 individual players' magical RP at the height of my MAT days, I can say that guidance and quality roleplay aren't sharply correlated. A lot of the people who RP'ed magic back when the MAT was around were really bad at it, and didn't do much to create fun RP. Likewise, there wasn't a lot of correlation between how much guidance one had and how good their magical RP was. Surprisingly enough, the quality of one's magical roleplay seemed to be consistent with the quality of their other roleplay. If one had a history of powergaming, they would be more prone to powergame magic. If one wasn't great at providing fun roleplay, magic typically didn't help. The negative correlation between magic roleplay quality and the unlocking of magic is a fantasy that, unfortunately, is very hard to doubt for a person who wasn't on the MAT, as it really is an intuitive notion.

 

Anyways, I could go on and on about why I want magic to be permanently and fully unlocked, but Cappy, Lago and a few others articulated my arguments far more brilliantly than I ever could, and more importantly, there's a thread discussing the locking of magic right here. From now on, I'd appreciate it if everyone could stick with discussing my topic's original intention.

 

 

------------------------------------------------Discussion of alteration below------------------------------------------------

 

 

Now, let's go back to discussing the merits of having alteration be locked. Most of the complaints I saw were discussing how it will grow less unique if it is unlocked (or something similar, I'm just lumping a lot of you together for simplicity). However, the current magic system is basically meant to be that a magic is unlocked by default, unless there is a legitimate reason to lock it. Legitimate reasons don't include thinking that unlocking it would make it less unique, of a lower quality or less fun for its current batch of users. Instead, I'm trying to argue why, in this current system, alteration does not merit the lock it currently has.

 

While Jistuma raised some interesting points in opposition to my premise, I don't think they're all that solid. In the end, wards aren't any more powerful than any other type of magic, and lack any sort of offensive capabilities. They're designed to keep magic out, and that's about it. You can't ward an entire castle, and if one somehow could in RP, the ward wouldn't exactly last very long since it would require an enormous amount of mana to upkeep. The idea that one would do so is no more reasonable than the idea that a group of pyromancers could produce a large enough fireball to melt a castle or something of the like. All magic is powergameable, and while magic lacks a basis in reality, experience RP'ing will tell us that neither of these scenarios are acceptable or anything except powergaming.

 

As for enchantments losing their uniqueness, we live in a world where magic is already prevalent. Magical items shouldn't be unique and special because they're magical, but instead because they were involved in some event that sets them apart from others. Magic shouldn't be the deciding factor as to whether or not an enchanted item is special, but instead the RP surrounding the item. So again, I don't really think this is a good reason to keep this magic locked, or consistent with the staff/LM Team's position on magic.

 

And of course, while all aspects of alteration are powergameable, what is and is not reasonable is largely common sense. There are certainly grey areas, but there are grey areas in all aspects of RP, whether it be magic, regular combat, or something else entirely. Making sense of these grey areas is a skill that RP'ers must learn to use if they wish to enjoy the RP they're a part of.

 

 

Anyways, that's all for now, but I'd like to remind you all to please stay on topic. If you wish to discuss the merits of locking or unlocking magic to a greater degree, go here.

[Birdwhisperer 1173]

Any off topics posts past this point will be removed.

[Elindor 654]

Wards is an interesting point. The main issue I see is that all wards REQUIRE a way to be broken. But this is not really very clear and probably doesn't get role-played, so there exists this idea that you can make a big strong lock, put a ward on it and it is indestructible.

 

Wards should remain open too. But to do so would need to emerge the science of breaking wards. There is also this incorrect notion circulating that a ward can power itself, of be given a mana battery or anything like that. But nope.

In fact, a lot of the lore for Wards is only aimed towards making them, and nothing about what happens after it exists.

 

(I could be wrong. Have never come close to RPing with transfiguration)

 

 

Also: You failed to mention transmutation Ski. Aren't you worried about all the powergamers who will turn a stick into glue? 

[Agith 224]

To first address the whole debacle seen prior...Originally magic wasn't actually a thing, it was the coming of the ascended that really let people go nuts. And even then no one really used it, I can recall...7? Or so mages who actually used magic. Originally it was an event thing as I recall (Though perhaps I am mistaken), and Availer pretty much was the guy with it. Does magic need to be 100% locked? Well no, it doesn't. Does some of it? Yes! Should there be regulations? Yes! 

 

Let new players have magic, give them basic magic forms though, and then they progress that way. Give them Pyromancy, Water evocation, Earth evocation, and air...But limit it to lesser forms until they can actual get the chance to progress and learn. Let them discover the magic through roleplay, unlocking more as they are taught more. 

 

Furthermore reinstate the MAT, let them have the ability to blacklist people who abuse it, or troll with it. Regulate it rationally. The same goes for villainy honestly. 

 

Now back on topic, alteration is one of those magics I feel needs to be a bit more defined. We have three branches, warding, transfiguration and enchanting. Warding is something that I believe is a bit iffy, but with the advent of a guide, I am torn. Enchanting and transfiguration though are magics which rply make sense to be locked. Learning to infuse an item with power is something I believe is a feat just as hard as learning to warp life energies (Why Necro is locked). Hell you're probably more likely to just explode. The same goes for transfiguration, as I can see you accidently turning yourself to sand on an attempt and pretty much that's that. THose two forms involve actual altering of the world, as opposed to imposing new rules upon it as is seen with warding. However I still believe it should be completely locked, as the entirety of the magic has a good system in place which is accessable, and perfectly fine as is.

 

Though to put it bluntly, if you don't want to have to take steps which are laid out before you to get the magic? Why should you get the magic anyway? If you don't want to join the mages guild, maybe there are other alterationists out there beyond jsut them to find and learn from. But just getting it, or learning it because you found a book (I don't know if a tome would work with this...I'd need to look into that one a bit more, if it is? THen nevermind...Finding a book becomes another option!). THe path is there, it's like you demanding to become a druid without being attuned, or demanding to become a war cleric without first learning to manipulate the light, and then be connected to Tah in order to use the potent magics it has. There is always a path, and laziness does not mean you should just get it. Be a go getter! Find options. 

 

And either way you'll spend "IRL time" to learn magic...Just as you spend IRL time to earn a rank in an order, or IRL time to walk from one city to the next. You get back what you put in. And if time isn't readily available? Honestly I see more successful roleplayers who don't have a metric ton of time, than those who are constantly on...So really that's not an excuse either. 

 

The problem isn't in it being locked. The problem is that you don't want to take the path to get it. Saying thati t's silly that you need to learn it in roleplay...To get it? Is preposterous in every sort of the word. We're an RP server...What's so bad about rping to get it? Just as you RP when you have it. It adds more depth to your character, and it makes them unique.

 

However as I said...I am 100% fine with giving the players a very...Very basic learnable version. Makng them able to do their silly fun rp enchantments. However the serious big guns need to remain restricted. A fine example of the fun stuff was Blundermore's event with all the rather interseting items with varying effects...Making you sound like a donkey and so on. That's fine! But yes, keep the fire swords, ever sharp swords, ultralight weight equipment and so on enchantments locked. If you just want to create fun rp after all, you don't need to be able to give yourself an edge in anything.

 

TL; DR Basic form, with fun stuff like Blundermore's items did...I.E. Making you sound like a donkey with hand cuffs. But keep enchantments that give you an edge locked to the real deal. As for wards and transfiguration? Transfig stays locked, wards can be given an equally simple equivalent for the fun rp without the serious toys at hand. You can move on to earn that stuff in RP. 

[ski_king3 0]

Wards is an interesting point. The main issue I see is that all wards REQUIRE a way to be broken. But this is not really very clear and probably doesn't get role-played, so there exists this idea that you can make a big strong lock, put a ward on it and it is indestructible.

 

Wards should remain open too. But to do so would need to emerge the science of breaking wards. There is also this incorrect notion circulating that a ward can power itself, of be given a mana battery or anything like that. But nope.

In fact, a lot of the lore for Wards is only aimed towards making them, and nothing about what happens after it exists.

 

(I could be wrong. Have never come close to RPing with transfiguration)

 

 

Also: You failed to mention transmutation Ski. Aren't you worried about all the powergamers who will turn a stick into glue? 

 

In regards to wards, traditionally the way it worked is that more or less if someone casts a spell with more mana, it broke the ward, and if not the ward held. However, I suppose there could be more specifics to how they're broken, which I'm sure current magic users can develop.

 

And honestly, given that people can't use transmutation to change anything tangibly within MC, I find the way it can be abused to be very minimal. People need to just not melt through walls, and we're pretty much good.

 

 

To first address the whole debacle seen prior...Originally magic wasn't actually a thing, it was the coming of the ascended that really let people go nuts. And even then no one really used it, I can recall...7? Or so mages who actually used magic. Originally it was an event thing as I recall (Though perhaps I am mistaken), and Availer pretty much was the guy with it. Does magic need to be 100% locked? Well no, it doesn't. Does some of it? Yes! Should there be regulations? Yes! 

 

Let new players have magic, give them basic magic forms though, and then they progress that way. Give them Pyromancy, Water evocation, Earth evocation, and air...But limit it to lesser forms until they can actual get the chance to progress and learn. Let them discover the magic through roleplay, unlocking more as they are taught more. 

 

Furthermore reinstate the MAT, let them have the ability to blacklist people who abuse it, or troll with it. Regulate it rationally. The same goes for villainy honestly. 

 

Now back on topic, alteration is one of those magics I feel needs to be a bit more defined. We have three branches, warding, transfiguration and enchanting. Warding is something that I believe is a bit iffy, but with the advent of a guide, I am torn. Enchanting and transfiguration though are magics which rply make sense to be locked. Learning to infuse an item with power is something I believe is a feat just as hard as learning to warp life energies (Why Necro is locked). Hell you're probably more likely to just explode. The same goes for transfiguration, as I can see you accidently turning yourself to sand on an attempt and pretty much that's that. THose two forms involve actual altering of the world, as opposed to imposing new rules upon it as is seen with warding. However I still believe it should be completely locked, as the entirety of the magic has a good system in place which is accessable, and perfectly fine as is.

 

Though to put it bluntly, if you don't want to have to take steps which are laid out before you to get the magic? Why should you get the magic anyway? If you don't want to join the mages guild, maybe there are other alterationists out there beyond jsut them to find and learn from. But just getting it, or learning it because you found a book (I don't know if a tome would work with this...I'd need to look into that one a bit more, if it is? THen nevermind...Finding a book becomes another option!). THe path is there, it's like you demanding to become a druid without being attuned, or demanding to become a war cleric without first learning to manipulate the light, and then be connected to Tah in order to use the potent magics it has. There is always a path, and laziness does not mean you should just get it. Be a go getter! Find options. 

 

And either way you'll spend "IRL time" to learn magic...Just as you spend IRL time to earn a rank in an order, or IRL time to walk from one city to the next. You get back what you put in. And if time isn't readily available? Honestly I see more successful roleplayers who don't have a metric ton of time, than those who are constantly on...So really that's not an excuse either. 

 

The problem isn't in it being locked. The problem is that you don't want to take the path to get it. Saying thati t's silly that you need to learn it in roleplay...To get it? Is preposterous in every sort of the word. We're an RP server...What's so bad about rping to get it? Just as you RP when you have it. It adds more depth to your character, and it makes them unique.

 

However as I said...I am 100% fine with giving the players a very...Very basic learnable version. Makng them able to do their silly fun rp enchantments. However the serious big guns need to remain restricted. A fine example of the fun stuff was Blundermore's event with all the rather interseting items with varying effects...Making you sound like a donkey and so on. That's fine! But yes, keep the fire swords, ever sharp swords, ultralight weight equipment and so on enchantments locked. If you just want to create fun rp after all, you don't need to be able to give yourself an edge in anything.

 

TL; DR Basic form, with fun stuff like Blundermore's items did...I.E. Making you sound like a donkey with hand cuffs. But keep enchantments that give you an edge locked to the real deal. As for wards and transfiguration? Transfig stays locked, wards can be given an equally simple equivalent for the fun rp without the serious toys at hand. You can move on to earn that stuff in RP. 

 

The thing is, alteration isn't any more powerful or particularly difficult in comparison to other magics. Yes, it's not super well defined, in part because there used to be a lot of room for abuse, but the mechanical standard largely resolves that. There is literally no chance of you exploding or turning yourself into sand while using alteration (unless your character has severe mental deficiencies).

 

Likewise, the way it is currently set up, players cannot self-teach this magic, which I find to be pretty silly. This magic, at its roots, is not that complicated, and ought to be open broadly to all players. Likewise, I think the idea of having a tuned down one open to players is silly, as that's basically telling people that if they can RP the magic correctly, they can do some of it, but nothing of meaning even if they progress in RP.

 

Anyways, most of your post is about the merits of locked/unlocked magic, which I shan't address. There's already another thread open for that.

[Elindor 654]

And honestly, given that people can't use transmutation to change anything tangibly within MC, I find the way it can be abused to be very minimal. People need to just not melt through walls, and we're pretty much good.

 

Twas sarcasm which bade the man to write the folly.

[Ivran 137]

From what I understand, these magics are locked because they are the most dangerous and the easiest to power-game. Which, is why getting a teacher is beneficial so the student knows the do's and do nots of the magic.

[ski_king3 0]

From what I understand, these magics are locked because they are the most dangerous and the easiest to power-game. Which, is why getting a teacher is beneficial so the student knows the do's and do nots of the magic.

 

They aren't, though. They're no more powerful than the other forms of magic, merely different, and any significant powergaming is pretty obvious that it's powergaming to someone who has some experience roleplaying.