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Smaw

[✓] Origins of the Orcs and Mor'Ghuun, the land of Warfare

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I have a question please.

 

What purpose does this lore serve?

 

This is intended to serve as a foundation from which to expand on Orcish History and Lore

 

There was already lore for ancient orc events and history written. There is already a foundation to be drawn from which has been drawn from in RP in every map since Aegis - Even you, unknowingly, have drawn from this history.

 

There is more to the story, but that will all be unveiled during the next map, which is infact based on Orcish history, and will be the Isles of Mor'Ghuun.

 

That is probably forever and a day away, and is unnecessary to be wrote up now - Also, I disdain the idea of a singular figure being responsible for entire foundation lore of a map, considering the fact that that's what happened with this and prior maps, this current map's foundation lore largely having been made by SupremacyOps, who I hold no secrets about my disdain towards. So to me, this reads like you'd like to be the new SupremacyOps, only for Orcs. 

 

I'll work on the general writing and so on in the future, but for now I wanted to get this out there because it's been sitting in a google document for far too long

 

Don't get upset at critical feedback you're receiving for unfinished lore. It's good you got it out in mere skeletal form - Now we can help point out the various breaks in the bones so you can bury it and make a new one.

 

And yes, the death of Horen was previously accepted, historical lore.  

 

This specific version of his death story  is previously accepted historical lore? Show me where. I think not. If it was, it is one thing that deserves a good retconning - There's no need to get into the canonical deaths of the Four Fathers, unless you have literally server-wide unanimous approval... Or close to it. Mog handled it well when he wrote the original lore, leaving the fate a mystery. 

 

I appreciate the openness and trying to be open and public with lore - But the key to being open and public with lore submissions is that you understand that people will give feedback on it, and in some cases it may be majorly negative - Don't get defensive over your lore when people don't receive it well and want to correct it.

 

I'll be honest, personal opinion here-

 

  • I don't think the Four Brothers hated each other nor would they try to attack each other except for severe reasons, and even then I wonder if that would be enough for them to kill each other. I doubt it.
  • I hate Apohet and how he's been utilized - I hate how Aenguldaemonic-centric it makes the Orc culture. The #1 interesting thing Orc culture had running for it was the lack of direct aengudaemonic influence in it's culture and magic. Yea, we had the spirits - But the spirits aren't aengudaemons, and we never interact with the Aengudaemon who created them himself.

MAJOR POINT OF CONTENTION:

The dead that had perished in the battle against Iblees were flooding into the spirit realm. Apohet knew that the Creator would be perturbed, at the very least, at this development,

 

I'm sorry, are you saying that everyone  who died in the battle against Iblees went to the spirit realm? Because it's been established that would not be the case. I know your next sentence is as below:

 

He made sure this happened for the rest of time, and even now Apohet makes sure that the dead pass swiftly through his realm, to their respective afterlives.

 

But I've always thought it stupid that apparently all dead (I don't even know when this happened, but I guess apparently it did???) pass through the spirit realm - It's asinine. The Spirit Realm has always been the domain of the Orcs. The Ancestral plane, always the Orcish domain. When everyone and their dog passed through the Spirit Realm to get to Axios, I wanted to choke a puppy due to the idiocy and illogical nature of it all. (No offense to the writers - But it was stupid in my opinion, and contrary largely to the general "atmosphere" and prior writing and lore involving Orcs and the Spirit realm. It seemed contrary to the whole system to have the entire world flood the Spirit Realm and move boats through it. It also threw out a lot of prior event story already established for 5.0)

 

Just seems unnecessary to me that a racial-specific realm (the spirit realm, largely being reserved as an Orcish thing) has an impact on ALL the races (all souls passing through it at death)

 

Finally, and with an iron fist, Krug had subjugated all who had opposed him, and once again claimed the title of Rex of all Orcish people.

 

Mog's already established the inaccuracy of this, so I won't linger on that point any further.

 

Until suddenly, a voice spoke out within Krug’s mind. It was the Spiritual Element of Air, who had taken notice of Krugs profound bellowing.

Krug spoke out to the voice, challenging it out of caution and curiosity.

 

why would Krug, the Brother who Resisted, speak out to a mysterious unknown voice.

 

I'm not going to go into the nonsense non-existent Orcish "heroes" you bring up in your lore. The lore team needs to get it together - Do you guys want to involve player contribution into lore, or not? Because Leo seems to be pushing heavily for it, but you, despite having a wealth of history and clans which far surpasses what the Wood Elves ever had available to them, seem to be insistent on ignoring all that lore and story and making your own **** up.

 

Still, his physical strength alone was too mighty to conquer, and so, with an iron rule, the first Rex of the united Empires instructed them all to make waves of war ships in preparation for their vengeance.

 

Again; Wasn't Rex.

 

I may be missing something, but what exactly is the Vengeance payment for? What the **** did Horen do?

 

He was tricked, as ALL the brothers except Krug were, and then when he realized it, he helped fight Iblees. So what the **** did Horen do against Krug? I refuse to believe Horen would abandon Krug, or any of the Four Brothers would abandon each other to face Iblees - That implies Horen didn't help fight Iblees. So really, what does Krug have to get vengeance for that he's going this far out of his way? That he's leading armies?

 

I also think you need to preface this lore with "THE DISHONORABLE AND EASY DEATH OF HOREN" so the human players can get in on this and comment, because this is not just Orcish lore, this is impacting Human lore and their history as well, so don't try to sneak the death of Horen into this lore and act like it's entirely Orcish lore.

 

Then, we have this:

 

He created what some would describe as a filter; allowing those with souls of Honour, Spirituality and Virtue to enter his realm

 

Which disregards the earlier statement in the lore saying:

 

He made sure this happened for the rest of time, and even now Apohet makes sure that the dead pass swiftly through his realm, to their respective afterlives.

If the souls are all passing through the Spirit Realm, then obviously there is no filter only allowing those of honor, spirituality, and virtue to enter his realm. All souls pass through, according to this, therefore there's no such thing as a filter on the realm.

 

 

in finality

 

a cycle they too would suffer, for such was the curse of Iblees.

 

i hate the word "cycle" thanks to mathic age bullshit and am triggered by this. please remove.

 

 

 

P.S. Aegis has long since been confirmed the origin of the Four Brothers and all that, and these other shitty racial-themed maps we're going to are just where they all went to settle. They're all on the same plane as Aegis and in roughly close physical proximity, i.e., a few weeks ship sail away.

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1 minute ago, Smaw said:

 

Aegis was not the homeland of the Descendants, it was the convergent point where the Brothers finally defeated Iblees with the help of the Aenguls, who banished him to the Void.

 

This is why Axios is known as the homeland of the Elves, since it is where Malin was from, and all of his children.

 

I'm not sure you know your lore, bud.

 

 

Nope. Read the Elven history Submission that was Approved for more insight.

 

 

Nope.

 

 

You're still not understanding the point, it seems. If the clans came from Gorkil, Rax and so on, chances are they lived together on a continent, which could have been the one the Nation of Krugmar in the proposal is said to have ventured to: Aegis.

 

This is no way meddles with existing lore and RP outside of your misunderstanding of Ancient lore.

 

 

The Clan War that took place in RP? The same Dom's who were played as characters? I've seen quite a few Dom's around.

 
 
 

 

The Clan War did not take place in RP

 

Are you saying the Staff actually accepted something that made Aegis not were the four races were created is this true I have to see this bullshit please link so I can rip it apart. If it is true it should be removed entirely since it is a Retcon

 

First of all, when I speak of Ancient History I speak about the ancient history that has existed ever since the server was created if the LM team allowed a Retcon of that shame on the LM team. I am highly disturbed that they would Retcon Aegis. 

 

Also just fyi none of the History I speak of was written by me I am defending people's lore that are no longer here, such as Bein the old Orc Gm from Aegis Tythus and Vaquexian, Crator, Blawharag, Urara, Gragarn and Alex_Pan

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Just now, TeaLulu said:

I have a question please.

 

Woah dude, that's a lot to respond to.

 

Quote

What purpose does this lore serve?

 

This is intended to serve as a foundation from which to expand on Orcish History and Lore

 

There was already lore for ancient orc events and history written. There is already a foundation to be drawn from which has been drawn from in RP in every map since Aegis - Even you, unknowingly, have drawn from this history.

 

How many of them are still around? How am I even taking away from the vast majority of that lore and RP that can be added alongside this.

 

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There is more to the story, but that will all be unveiled during the next map, which is infact based on Orcish history, and will be the Isles of Mor'Ghuun.

 

That is probably forever and a day away, and is unnecessary to be wrote up now - Also, I disdain the idea of a singular figure being responsible for entire foundation lore of a map, considering the fact that that's what happened with this and prior maps, this current map's foundation lore largely having been made by SupremacyOps, who I hold no secrets about my disdain towards. So to me, this reads like you'd like to be the new SupremacyOps, only for Orcs. 

 

It will have to be written eventually, and as it stands no one else is around to. There's also a drive to get this out now, since the Elven one is nearing completion, and a Dwarven one is in the works. It's on the LT project list.

 

No one else even seems to care about assisting the Orcs, so am I the villain here? There's about 19 Orcs at best, and I'd rather work to help improve their future RP than think about upsetting some old, irrelevant Orcs that haven't been a part of the community for years.

 

I know you read the preface, I know you're aware that this isn't entirely the finished concept, and I know you realise that this is a lore submission thread and not accepted as canon at this stage.

 

Please don't compare me to SupremacyPoOps.

 

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I'll work on the general writing and so on in the future, but for now I wanted to get this out there because it's been sitting in a google document for far too long

 

Don't get upset at critical feedback you're receiving for unfinished lore. It's good you got it out in mere skeletal form - Now we can help point out the various breaks in the bones so you can bury it and make a new one.

 

I'm not upset, I would just appreciate criticism backed with a general understanding of this purpose and old lore. I'm not aversed to feedback or changes, and have posted this in every Orc related Skype chat for insight.

 

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And yes, the death of Horen was previously accepted, historical lore.  

 

This specific version of his death story  is previously accepted historical lore? Show me where. I think not. If it was, it is one thing that deserves a good retconning - There's no need to get into the canonical deaths of the Four Fathers, unless you have literally server-wide unanimous approval... Or close to it. Mog handled it well when he wrote the original lore, leaving the fate a mystery. 

 

I appreciate the openness and trying to be open and public with lore - But the key to being open and public with lore submissions is that you understand that people will give feedback on it, and in some cases it may be majorly negative - Don't get defensive over your lore when people don't receive it well and want to correct it.

 

The accepted Shamanism origins have the account of his death in there, which was accepted a long time ago through a previous LM, Hellfiazz. I even cited him in the post for creating that part of the lore in the preface.

 

To be honest, if a current Orc comes with an issue and wants to change it, I'm happy. However, Mogroka has continuously complained from the background for a while now without actually getting involved.

 

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I'll be honest, personal opinion here-

 

  • I don't think the Four Brothers hated each other nor would they try to attack each other except for severe reasons, and even then I wonder if that would be enough for them to kill each other. I doubt it.
  • I hate Apohet and how he's been utilized - I hate how Aenguldaemonic-centric it makes the Orc culture. The #1 interesting thing Orc culture had running for it was the lack of direct aengudaemonic influence in it's culture and magic. Yea, we had the spirits - But the spirits aren't aengudaemons, and we never interact with the Aengudaemon who created them himself.

 

Why do you believe that at the very least, Krug wouldn't have anger toward them for abandoning him? I'm not saying the other three hated each other as well. Just the Orcish one, the one riddled with Bloodlust who can't tell friend from foe when angered.

 

As for Apohet, I don't like him at all. However, it was previously accepted lore I can't change, I have to merely work with it. That part was also written by Hellfiazz, as cited in the preface.

 

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MAJOR POINT OF CONTENTION:

The dead that had perished in the battle against Iblees were flooding into the spirit realm. Apohet knew that the Creator would be perturbed, at the very least, at this development,

 

I'm sorry, are you saying that everyone  who died in the battle against Iblees went to the spirit realm? Because it's been established that would not be the case. I know your next sentence is as below:

 

He made sure this happened for the rest of time, and even now Apohet makes sure that the dead pass swiftly through his realm, to their respective afterlives.

 

But I've always thought it stupid that apparently all dead (I don't even know when this happened, but I guess apparently it did???) pass through the spirit realm - It's asinine. The Spirit Realm has always been the domain of the Orcs. The Ancestral plane, always the Orcish domain. When everyone and their dog passed through the Spirit Realm to get to Axios, I wanted to choke a puppy due to the idiocy and illogical nature of it all. (No offense to the writers - But it was stupid in my opinion, and contrary largely to the general "atmosphere" and prior writing and lore involving Orcs and the Spirit realm. It seemed contrary to the whole system to have the entire world flood the Spirit Realm and move boats through it. It also threw out a lot of prior event story already established for 5.0)

 

Just seems unnecessary to me that a racial-specific realm (the spirit realm, largely being reserved as an Orcish thing) has an impact on ALL the races (all souls passing through it at death)

 

No, the Spirit realm is connected to the passage of all Souls. At first it caused a stir, like a fork in a river that causes a split in the traffic. Eventually Apohet rectified it, so that only those interested in going there could venture into the Spirit Realm. All others pass by.

 

Also, that was written and previously accepted by Hellfiazz, as cited in the preface. 

 

Also, it's not race-specific.

 

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Finally, and with an iron fist, Krug had subjugated all who had opposed him, and once again claimed the title of Rex of all Orcish people.

 

Mog's already established the inaccuracy of this, so I won't linger on that point any further.

 

You mean, semantics?

 

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Until suddenly, a voice spoke out within Krug’s mind. It was the Spiritual Element of Air, who had taken notice of Krugs profound bellowing.

Krug spoke out to the voice, challenging it out of caution and curiosity.

 

why would Krug, the Brother who Resisted, speak out to a mysterious unknown voice.

 

It's right there, you'd see that he did it in challenge, which would be the Orcish way. I mean, come on.

 

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I'm not going to go into the nonsense non-existent Orcish "heroes" you bring up in your lore. The lore team needs to get it together - Do you guys want to involve player contribution into lore, or not? Because Leo seems to be pushing heavily for it, but you, despite having a wealth of history and clans which far surpasses what the Wood Elves ever had available to them, seem to be insistent on ignoring all that lore and story and making your own **** up.

 

The vast majority of existing clans are dead, or on the way out. Gorkil has had, until recently a child as Wargoth.

 

I could easily change the older clans to those of past RP, but would it make much of a difference? This allows for exploration of something new, outside of, as you said, existing, established RP that should be left alone. 

 

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Still, his physical strength alone was too mighty to conquer, and so, with an iron rule, the first Rex of the united Empires instructed them all to make waves of war ships in preparation for their vengeance.

 

Again; Wasn't Rex

 

Semantics.

 

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I may be missing something, but what exactly is the Vengeance payment for? What the **** did Horen do?

 

He was tricked, as ALL the brothers except Krug were, and then when he realized it, he helped fight Iblees. So what the **** did Horen do against Krug? I refuse to believe Horen would abandon Krug, or any of the Four Brothers would abandon each other to face Iblees - That implies Horen didn't help fight Iblees. So really, what does Krug have to get vengeance for that he's going this far out of his way? That he's leading armies?

 

I also think you need to preface this lore with "THE DISHONORABLE AND EASY DEATH OF HOREN" so the human players can get in on this and comment, because this is not just Orcish lore, this is impacting Human lore and their history as well, so don't try to sneak the death of Horen into this lore and act like it's entirely Orcish lore.

 

Have you honestly read this proposal? I'm starting to doubt it. At the very least, not critically enough. If you're going to provide feedback, at least have something reasonable.

 

Krug wasn't tricked, he just came to accept the company of the Iblees' disguised form. He didn't accept the offer in the end, which is cited in the original lore. You can read it and quote me if you like. If I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up.

 

As for his death, I'm open to changing that if need be. However, it would logically follow after having had his city destroyed, which is in previously established lore. Why would he have bothered to destroy the city?

 

The reason was altogether unspecified, but can easily tie into their neglect of him during his Bloodlust, arguably the only ones that could have contained him from killing his own people.

 

Quote

Then, we have this:

 

He created what some would describe as a filter; allowing those with souls of Honour, Spirituality and Virtue to enter his realm

 

Which disregards the earlier statement in the lore saying:

 

He made sure this happened for the rest of time, and even now Apohet makes sure that the dead pass swiftly through his realm, to their respective afterlives.

 

If the souls are all passing through the Spirit Realm, then obviously there is no filter only allowing those of honor, spirituality, and virtue to enter his realm. All souls pass through, according to this, therefore there's no such thing as a filter on the realm.

 

Based on my earlier explanation, you can see where it ties in logically and consistently. The former quotation happens after the latter, so you've kind of skewed that for this argument.

 

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in finality

 

a cycle they too would suffer, for such was the curse of Iblees.

 

i hate the word "cycle" thanks to mathic age bullshit and am triggered by this. please remove.

 

Nah, but I despise Mathic too and argued for its removal. 

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There was no retcon, the four brothers are still from Aegis. The other races spread out from there on if I am not wrong.

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26 minutes ago, Sultan said:

Are you saying the Staff actually accepted something that made Aegis not were the four races were created is this true I have to see this bullshit please link so I can rip it apart. If it is true it should be removed entirely since it is a Retcon

 

Yeah, it seems to be established as fact.

 

Before I was added to the Lore Team, mind you.

 

It actually works better though, if we're being honest. It explains a lot about the lands we've been discovering, and there's a map based on the lands that surround the Abyss, which was formerly Aegis.

 

From my understanding, it's kind of like this:

 

- Brothers from each Land

- Meet in Aegis to finish off Iblees

- Return to their lands

-Return to Aegis where community defeats Iblees again

-Rest of server lore

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Just now, Smaw said:

 

Yeah, it seems to be established as fact.

 

Before I was added to the Lore Team, mind you.

 

It actually works better though, if we're being honest. It explains a lot about the lands we've been discovering, and there's a map based on the lands that surround the Abyss, which was formerly Aegis.

 

From my understanding, it's kind of like this:

 

- Brothers from each Land

- Meet in Aegis to finish off Iblees

- Return to their lands

-Return to Aegis where community defeats Iblees again

-Rest of server lore

 
1

 

To be honest it can work better if it went like this since if it goes this way it won't retcon anything

 

- Brothers are from Aegis establish themselves there Ibless shows up, ravages the land they are forced to flee.

- The brother's set up homes for them in different Island's

- Come back meet Ibless in Aegis and finish him off with the help of anguelsdeamons.

-Remain in Aeigs leaving remnants in the island they once settled. 

 

This way there is 0 conflict. 

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Just now, Sultan said:

 

To be honest it can work better if it went like this since if it goes this way it won't retcon anything

 

- Brothers are from Aegis establish themselves there Ibless shows up, ravages the land they are forced to flee.

- The brother's set up homes for them in different Island's

- Come back meet Ibless in Aegis and finish him off with the help of anguelsdeamons.

-Remain in Aeigs leaving remnants in the island they once settled. 

 

This way there is 0 conflict. 

 

There's 0 conflict either way. You say Krug vanished, I say nothing about Krug after returning to the land.

 

It's equally as vague.

 

Whatever the case may be, it wasn't my decision. I'm working on my understanding of lore based on the insight of the current LT, who had made these changes at some point, without me.

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2 minutes ago, Smaw said:

 

There's 0 conflict either way. You say Krug vanished, I say nothing about Krug after returning to the land.

 

It's equally as vague.

 

Whatever the case may be, it wasn't my decision. I'm working on my understanding of lore based on the insight of the current LT, who had made these changes at some point, without me.

 
 

 

it kinda does 

 

Spoiler

There were no planes of existence. There was nothing. Just the Void. And a bright shining light. It was not a light we could see, it was not really white either, but it would be the only way to explain the existence of such a Deity in contrast to the emptiness of the Void. None knows why, how or when this Deity existed. It is, in-fact, heresy to speculate on such matters. The all knowing God was this Deity.

Truly none can describe the majesty of the creator, the one and only. The Merciful Creator of the Seven Skies. With his intent, and only his intent, the World of Aegis was created. All he had to do was simply want it to occur and it happened. The rolling seas, proud mountains and vast landscapes, all in a second, created by God.

The World was not created in play or for fun, but as a theater for the inhabitants of the World to be tested in. And tested for what? Well, that is for us to speculate. Though I believe it is to test us for purity, how hard we can fight temptation, and how clean and good can our actions be.

The first mortal being to be created was a man. This man was sculptured with clay and water, but left hollow. Soulless, God's creation lay there for the other immortal beings to see; the Aengul and the Daemon, the two spirits created before the mortal beings and before the creation of Aegis. Not much is known about these two spirit races, but hopefully in the future we may know more.

God then blew his own breath of existence into the hollow shell and the Man lived. God then took the man and put him in the centre of all of Aegis, the same spot where The Cloud Temple now stands. God also made the Man a partner, from the exact same clay and the exact same breath, she was the first Woman. These simple beings could not talk, nor did they know much about the World. They roamed the world, enjoying its pre-historic beauty. Untouched, the fresh glades and dark thick forests were a wonder to set eyes on. Soon they had four children in the four corners of Aegis.

Malin was the first of their sons, born in the deep forests of Aegis, he had blonde hair and sharp ears. Standing tall, he was the father of the Elves of Aegis. Krug was born in the scorching deserts of Aegis, fierce and relentless, he was the father of the Orcs. In the fresh meadows of Aegis was born Horen, father of Humans. And lastly, in the deep underground caves of the World, Urguan was born, master of the Dwarves.

We do not know how they fathered sons and how their lines continued but perhaps God created a partner for each Son to continue their lines? Soon the first Man and Woman created by God departed Aegis and climbed the seven skies to meet with God their creator, for they had achieved their goal. The Sons began to explore the World of Aegis and each was stricken with grief at the loss of their parents, seeking to fill the chasm of emotion inside them they began to create civilisation.

Although none of the descendants of each Son had neither their long lives or splendour, they did carry their forefathers looks and traits. The Elves with Malin at their head travelled the lands and began naming all the inhabitants of this world, they were the first to create a tongue and began to name the trees and grass, the mountains and valleys across all of Aegis.

At this time, Malin, Urguan, Krug and Horen were not far apart in looks. Horen and Krug had darker hair than the other two and Krug was a bit larger in build. Malin had blonde hair and Urguan had red. They were all close companions, friends and had much love for each other and each others people.

Urguantravelled into the deep underground of the earth, naming the beautiful ores and gems, sharing it with his brethren. Krug travelled the harsh deserts, testing his stamina and strength against the environment of Aegis, and Horen began building the first squalid huts and villages in the valleys. The people lived for hundreds of years, in harmony and peace. Until the day where one of the great Daemons, great worshipers and squalid protectors of the Void, kin spirits to the Aengul, defected. Iblees, who was once the greatest of all of Gods worshippers, was cast down into the mortal world. He was about to destroy the tranquility of Aegis forever. 

7

 

 

See with them fleeing Aegis to other lands to recover and then come back and defeat Ibless. This would make more sense and not retcon ancient lore.

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Woah dude, that's a lot to respond to.

 

 

 

 Yea, odd enough you never really got to answering the question.

 

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How many of them are still around? How am I even taking away from the vast majority of that lore and RP that can be added alongside this.

Most of the clans, to my knowledge, claim descent from one of the four original, or the descendants of those four original, even if you do not know that. You claim Mog has a misunderstanding of ancient lore, but you're wrong on that count - The person with the misunderstanding of ancient Orcish lore is you, and now you're trying to re-write it.

 

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It will have to be written eventually, and as it stands no one else is around to. There's also a drive to get this out now, since the Elven one is nearing completion, and a Dwarven one is in the works. It's on the LT project list.

Except ancient Orcish lore was already written a long time ago. If the LM team lost it like they did with the original Druid lore and a lot of other lore, (sometimes "conveniently" lost it because they didn't like it), well, Mog and others have copies they can provide. But rest assured, it WAS lore and it WAS accepted lore. Blawharag was on the original incarnation of the Lore team, and Mog was once Lore Admin. He's not pulling this out of his ass, so stop thinking he is.

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No one else even seems to care about assisting the Orcs, so am I the villain here? There's about 19 Orcs at best, and I'd rather work to help improve their future RP than think about upsetting some old, irrelevant Orcs that haven't been a part of the community for years.

 

I was working on an entire event and storyline for the Orcs before I was sucked into shitty 5.0 build. You're not the only person who gives a damn about the Orcs, but what are we supposed to do? The Orcs turned into a society almost entirely based on raiding, slavery, sacrifices... The Orcs are capable of so much more, but that's what they turned into, and that's what killed them.

 

There's no point in making an Orc map when the populace is so small. I don't mean to be cruel or negative, but it's the truth. You're going to be telling a story very few people care about, and everyone else will disregard it - That's the problem with these shitty racial-themed maps and all the racial-themed lore around them.

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I know you read the preface, I know you're aware that this isn't entirely the finished concept, and I know you realise that this is a lore submission thread and not accepted as canon at this stage.

 

Please don't compare me to SupremacyPoOps.

 

 Thats why I'm fighting it, and make sure you prove me wrong.

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I'm not upset, I would just appreciate criticism backed with a general understanding of this purpose and old lore. I'm not aversed to feedback or changes, and have posted this in every Orc related Skype chat for insight.

 

Again - I and Mog are not the ones with a misunderstanding of old lore. If anything, Mog has a greater understanding of it than you - Again, if the LM team lost the old orc lore, that's not our fault. If they secretly retconned it without publication, not our fault. That's a failure on the LM team's end, and does not mean the lore is suddenly forgotten nor should it be unconsidered.

 

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The accepted Shamanism origins have the account of his death in there, which was accepted a long time ago through a previous LM, Hellfiazz. I even cited him in the post for creating that part of the lore in the preface.

Shamanism origins were originally wrote by Blawharag, I believe. See; retcons, unofficial retcons, losing of lore, purposeful disregarding of lore, etc.


 

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To be honest, if a current Orc comes with an issue and wants to change it, I'm happy. However, Mogroka has continuously complained from the background for a while now without actually getting involved.

 

 

 

I gotta ask why anyone would get involved, but even if he or I or anyone who objects to this is not a current Orc PC, it doesn't mean we don't get an opinion, and it doesn't mean you have a right to disregard our argument.

 

I'm not going to get into an argument about why some people may not want to be involved with Orc RP currently or for the past year or so.

 


 

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Why do you believe that at the very least, Krug wouldn't have anger toward them for abandoning him? I'm not saying the other three hated each other as well. Just the Orcish one, the one riddled with Bloodlust who can't tell friend from foe when angered.

 

 

 

How was Krug abandoned. There's nothing in actual ancient lore about Krug being abandoned. ALL the brothers fought Iblees. There is no abandonment there. They all helped together. If you want to write in the Brothers abandoning Krug, that's stupid and there's no basis for it.


 

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As for Apohet, I don't like him at all. However, it was previously accepted lore I can't change, I have to merely work with it. That part was also written by Hellfiazz, as cited in the preface.

 

 

 

How about you stop trying to retcon good old lore like Blawharags and start trying to retcon Hellfiazz's then?


 

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No, the Spirit realm is connected to the passage of all Souls. At first it caused a stir, like a fork in a river that causes a split in the traffic. Eventually Apohet rectified it, so that only those interested in going there could venture into the Spirit Realm. All others pass by.

 

Also, that was written and previously accepted by Hellfiazz, as cited in the preface. 

 

 

 

Read my last point about that - All souls can't go through the spirit realm if only certain souls can enter. "Pass by" doesn't mean go through something, it means to go past or around. I.E. All non-spirit realm souls would not enter it at all.

 

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Also, it's not race-specific.

It kind of is. Its not written in the lore to be racial specific, but it should be, because in practice it very much is race-specific and the whole lore of Spirits is aimed primarily at and for Orcs, and therefore all things related to them are. Originally in Blawharag's original lore about the Spirit Realm, it didn't function as a catch-all all-races place, it was only for orcs and honorary orcs to interact with, and the ancestral realm was only for orcs and honorary orcs, who at death would be risen into it by a shaman's hand.


 

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You mean, semantics?

 

 

 

Important ones, yes. You're belittling the lore of those who came before you by acting like it doesn't matter.


 

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It's right there, you'd see that he did it in challenge, which would be the Orcish way. I mean, come on.

 

 

 

Why the **** would Krug challenge a mysterious disembodied voice? He'd be more likely to just ignore the stupid talking wind.

 

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The vast majority of existing clans are dead, or on the way out. Gorkil has had, until recently a child as Wargoth.

So because of this they should be completely swept to the wayside? Newsflash: The entire Orcish race is, and has been, on it's way out. 

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I could easily change the older clans to those of past RP, but would it make much of a difference? This allows for exploration of something new, outside of, as you said, existing, established RP that should be left alone. 

 

I can't tell what the general LM consensus is. If it's to "improve Roleplay by including current roleplay aspects", then it needs to be all around - Not just specific to specific races depending on who is writing the lore. Y'all need to get an actual consensus together and stick to it.

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Semantics.

 

Ones wrote by better lore writers than you.

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Have you honestly read this proposal? I'm starting to doubt it. At the very least, not critically enough. If you're going to provide feedback, at least have something reasonable.

 

Did you even read my reply? If so, you didn't take it seriously - Instead you took it as an attack and got defensive, as expected.

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Krug wasn't tricked, he just came to accept the company of the Iblees' disguised form. He didn't accept the offer in the end, which is cited in the original lore. You can read it and quote me if you like. If I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up.

 

 

This was what I said:

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I may be missing something, but what exactly is the Vengeance payment for? What the **** did Horen do?

 

He was tricked, as ALL the brothers except Krug were, and then when he realized it, he helped fight Iblees. So what the **** did Horen do against Krug? I refuse to believe Horen would abandon Krug, or any of the Four Brothers would abandon each other to face Iblees - That implies Horen didn't help fight Iblees. So really, what does Krug have to get vengeance for that he's going this far out of his way? That he's leading armies?

 

I also think you need to preface this lore with "THE DISHONORABLE AND EASY DEATH OF HOREN" so the human players can get in on this and comment, because this is not just Orcish lore, this is impacting Human lore and their history as well, so don't try to sneak the death of Horen into this lore and act like it's entirely Orcish lore.

 

"He was tricked" is in reference to Horen. I then clarify; "as ALL The brothers except Krug were, and then when he realized it, he helped fight Iblees". That is in reference to Horen. Not Krug. So Again- what does Krug have to get vengeance for? Horen fought to repair his mistake.

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As for his death, I'm open to changing that if need be. However, it would logically follow after having had his city destroyed, which is in previously established lore. Why would he have bothered to destroy the city?

 

Then get the humans involved and stop trying to trample over their lore just because they killed your race. I've never read lore stating that Krug destroyed Horen's city.


 

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The reason was altogether unspecified, but can easily tie into their neglect of him during his Bloodlust, arguably the only ones that could have contained him from killing his own people.

 

 

 

So Krug is now so weak that he challenges voices he hears on the wind and then makes friends with them, and then he is so weak that he gives into his bloodlust and kills his brother? That's not at all in Krug's character.

 

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Based on my earlier explanation, you can see where it ties in logically and consistently. The former quotation happens after the latter, so you've kind of skewed that for this argument.

There's nothing logical or consistent about the Spirit Realm or how it functions. If you want to start retconning old lore, how about you start there, especially if you dislike Apohet so much?

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Nah, but I despise Mathic too and argued for its removal. 

 

Good on you, I've been doing it since it was suggested. So at least we have that in common.

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Just now, TeaLulu said:

 Yea, odd enough you never really got to answering the question.

 

I answered every point, but these deluges are becoming tiresome.

 

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Most of the clans, to my knowledge, claim descent from one of the four original, or the descendants of those four original, even if you do not know that. You claim Mog has a misunderstanding of ancient lore, but you're wrong on that count - The person with the misunderstanding of ancient Orcish lore is you, and now you're trying to re-write it.

 

Except ancient Orcish lore was already written a long time ago. If the LM team lost it like they did with the original Druid lore and a lot of other lore, (sometimes "conveniently" lost it because they didn't like it), well, Mog and others have copies they can provide. But rest assured, it WAS lore and it WAS accepted lore. Blawharag was on the original incarnation of the Lore team, and Mog was once Lore Admin. He's not pulling this out of his ass, so stop thinking he is.

I was working on an entire event and storyline for the Orcs before I was sucked into shitty 5.0 build. You're not the only person who gives a damn about the Orcs, but what are we supposed to do? The Orcs turned into a society almost entirely based on raiding, slavery, sacrifices... The Orcs are capable of so much more, but that's what they turned into, and that's what killed them.

 

I'm well aware, and this can still take place. Perhaps you're not seeing the bigger picture. And he does have a misunderstanding, which is the fault of the old LT that changed Ancient Lore and didn't mention it.

 

What are you supposed to do? What am I doing? It's very easy to get involved and try to change things, instead of looking at an issue and thinking: "Oh well, guess there's nothing we can do."

 

They was so much more, but perhaps you weren't involved enough to see it.

 

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There's no point in making an Orc map when the populace is so small. I don't mean to be cruel or negative, but it's the truth. You're going to be telling a story very few people care about, and everyone else will disregard it - That's the problem with these shitty racial-themed maps and all the racial-themed lore around them.

 

Thats why I'm fighting it, and make sure you prove me wrong.

 

Again - I and Mog are not the ones with a misunderstanding of old lore. If anything, Mog has a greater understanding of it than you -

 

Again, if the LM team lost the old orc lore, that's not our fault. If they secretly retconned it without publication, not our fault. That's a failure on the LM team's end, and does not mean the lore is suddenly forgotten nor should it be unconsidered.

 

Mog has an understanding of old lore, based on old LT making mistakes.

 

Again, it's not logical lore if the basis of the Descendant origins is different. It doesn't fit either.

 

You fail to see that it's not my fault either. Nor is any lore being forgotten. You're... really not understanding the point here. 

 

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Shamanism origins were originally wrote by Blawharag, I believe. See; retcons, unofficial retcons, losing of lore, purposeful disregarding of lore, etc.

 

 

Again, nothing to do with me. I wrote this on what the past LT agreed was current lore.

 

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I gotta ask why anyone would get involved, but even if he or I or anyone who objects to this is not a current Orc PC, it doesn't mean we don't get an opinion, and it doesn't mean you have a right to disregard our argument.

 

I'm not going to get into an argument about why some people may not want to be involved with Orc RP currently or for the past year or so.

 

 

Because they don't want to put in effort? Which is why it was left completely to me for an entire year. 

 

Thanks for that.

 

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How was Krug abandoned. There's nothing in actual ancient lore about Krug being abandoned. ALL the brothers fought Iblees. There is no abandonment there. They all helped together. If you want to write in the Brothers abandoning Krug, that's stupid and there's no basis for it.

 

You know this is based on the submission and nothing else? In the submission he was abandoned after the curse. You know? Where it says that he went into Bloodrage and they all ran off?

 

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How about you stop trying to retcon good old lore like Blawharags and start trying to retcon Hellfiazz's then?

 

How about understanding where I'm coming from? Alternatively, I'm open to you and Mog writing your own version of events. We can pit them against one another in a voting process, and whoever wins and work on the subsequent effects of that.

 

Got the commitment?

 

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Read my last point about that - All souls can't go through the spirit realm if only certain souls can enter. "Pass by" doesn't mean go through something, it means to go past or around. I.E. All non-spirit realm souls would not enter it at all.

 

 

Yeah, Hellfiazz didn't explain it very well, but it can be easily changed to another word.

 

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It kind of is. Its not written in the lore to be racial specific, but it should be, because in practice it very much is race-specific and the whole lore of Spirits is aimed primarily at and for Orcs, and therefore all things related to them are. Originally in Blawharag's original lore about the Spirit Realm, it didn't function as a catch-all all-races place, it was only for orcs and honorary orcs to interact with, and the ancestral realm was only for orcs and honorary orcs, who at death would be risen into it by a shaman's hand.

 

Yet Spirits are intrinsically tied into everything, and gain power through that prevalence? Would they limit themselves purely to Orcs? Who chooses to be less powerful?
 

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Important ones, yes. You're belittling the lore of those who came before you by acting like it doesn't matter.

 

Not really. As I said, it would still tie in and exist nicely.

 

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Why the **** would Krug challenge a mysterious disembodied voice? He'd be more likely to just ignore the stupid talking wind.

 

smh

 

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So because of this they should be completely swept to the wayside? Newsflash: The entire Orcish race is, and has been, on it's way out. 

 

No, you were discussing relatability. What's relatable when all the clans are dead/nothing like their former cultures?

 

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I can't tell what the general LM consensus is. If it's to "improve Roleplay by including current roleplay aspects", then it needs to be all around - Not just specific to specific races depending on who is writing the lore. Y'all need to get an actual consensus together and stick to it.

 

Most of your arguments are based on ignorance. Are you in the Orc chats? Are you involved at all? How can you determine something with no insider insight?

 

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Ones wrote by better lore writers than you.

 

Ad hominem really helps legitimise your comments.

 

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Did you even read my reply? If so, you didn't take it seriously - Instead you took it as an attack and got defensive, as expected.

 

Look at the above quote. I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable or not. Oops!

 

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This was what I said:

 

"He was tricked" is in reference to Horen. I then clarify; "as ALL The brothers except Krug were, and then when he realized it, he helped fight Iblees". That is in reference to Horen. Not Krug. So Again- what does Krug have to get vengeance for? Horen fought to repair his mistake.

Then get the humans involved and stop trying to trample over their lore just because they killed your race. I've never read lore stating that Krug destroyed Horen's city.

 

Yeah, Horen and the other Brothers abandoned Krug when he was first cursed and began to kill everyone, as stated in my previous comment, and as stated in the proposal.

 

Proposal.

 

Proposal.

 

Proposal..

 

Proposal...

 

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So Krug is now so weak that he challenges voices he hears on the wind and then makes friends with them, and then he is so weak that he gives into his bloodlust and kills his brother? That's not at all in Krug's character.

 

Krug is weak for challenging a voice that enters his head? Lmao

 

Weakness has nothing to do with anger and betrayal, as show in the proposal.

 

Proposal.

 

Pro- 

 

Let's not do that again.

 

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There's nothing logical or consistent about the Spirit Realm or how it functions. If you want to start retconning old lore, how about you start there, especially if you dislike Apohet so much?

Good on you, I've been doing it since it was suggested. So at least we have that in common.

 

It's all very logical and consistent. Ask me sometime.

 

I probably won't respond to the next deluge.

 

It's largely based on a seeming mixture of ignorance and anger, which isn't going to help in any way. But I appreciate your insults, and I hope I can criticise your future proposal of Orcish History in a calmer manner.

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5 minutes ago, Smaw said:

 

I answered every point, but these deluges are becoming tiresome.

 

 

I'm well aware, and this can still take place. Perhaps you're not seeing the bigger picture. And he does have a misunderstanding, which is the fault of the old LT that changed Ancient Lore and didn't mention it.

 

What are you supposed to do? What am I doing? It's very easy to get involved and try to change things, instead of looking at an issue and thinking: "Oh well, guess there's nothing we can do."

 

They was so much more, but perhaps you weren't involved enough to see it.

 

 

Mog has an understanding of old lore, based on old LT making mistakes.

 

Again, it's not logical lore if the basis of the Descendant origins is different. It doesn't fit either.

 

You fail to see that it's not my fault either. Nor is any lore being forgotten. You're... really not understanding the point here. 

 

 

 

Again, nothing to do with me. I wrote this on what the past LT agreed was current lore.

 

 

 

Because they don't want to put in effort? Which is why it was left completely to me for an entire year. 

 

Thanks for that.

 

 

You know this is based on the submission and nothing else? In the submission he was abandoned after the curse. You know? Where it says that he went into Bloodrage and they all ran off?

 

 

How about understanding where I'm coming from? Alternatively, I'm open to you and Mog writing your own version of events. We can pit them against one another in a voting process, and whoever wins and work on the subsequent effects of that.

 

Got the commitment?

 

 

 

Yeah, Hellfiazz didn't explain it very well, but it can be easily changed to another word.

 

 

Yet Spirits are intrinsically tied into everything, and gain power through that prevalence? Would they limit themselves purely to Orcs? Who chooses to be less powerful?
 

 

Not really. As I said, it would still tie in and exist nicely.

 

 

smh

 

 

No, you were discussing relatability. What's relatable when all the clans are dead/nothing like their former cultures?

 

 

Most of your arguments are based on ignorance. Are you in the Orc chats? Are you involved at all? How can you determine something with no insider insight?

 

 

Ad hominem really helps legitimise your comments.

 

 

Look at the above quote. I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable or not. Oops!

 

 

Yeah, Horen and the other Brothers abandoned Krug when he was first cursed and began to kill everyone, as stated in my previous comment, and as stated in the proposal.

 

Proposal.

 

Proposal.

 

Proposal..

 

Proposal...

 

 

Krug is weak for challenging a voice that enters his head? Lmao

 

Weakness has nothing to do with anger and betrayal, as show in the proposal.

 

Proposal.

 

Pro- 

 

Let's not do that again.

 

 

It's all very logical and consistent. Ask me sometime.

 

I probably won't respond to the next deluge.

 

It's largely based on a seeming mixture of ignorance and anger, which isn't going to help in any way. But I appreciate your insults, and I hope I can criticise your future proposal of Orcish History in a calmer manner.

Alright, just wow.

 

Yes, this is a proposal. That is the entire point of my commenting on it. To justify why I do not think this proposal should be accepted. That is the point of posting proposals - So that the playerbase can look at them and we can give our commentary. If that's no longer the reason for open proposals, then LM should just lock all proposal threads, which would be a step in the wrong direction.

 

You're ignoring any argument against this lore and taking every objection as personal. I'm not sure you understand the point of a "proposal" or "proposed" lore. You're taking my objections to you as ignorant and angry, when I'm just responding in kind. My initial post pretty much covered all points and was not rude in the least - I admit I ate your bait and got a bit nastier in my next reply, so I apologize for that. But then again, don't put the bait out if you don't want rats.

 

Your counter-arguments have all been largely passive-aggressive on a level I wasn't expecting from you, so I think we've reached the end of whatever possible level of civil discourse was available.

 

The one thing I'll firmly counter is your passive aggressive statement that "Mog has an understanding of old lore, based on old LT making mistakes." No, he doesn't. Mog has understanding of the old lore as it was written by the original writers, and as he had access to it as Lore Admin at the time. You have understanding of old lore after it was fucked with by a series of incompetent and belligerent individuals hellbent on twisting it to their whim, including and largely lead by SupremacyPoOps. That isn't your fault, but it's a fact you should be aware of. The LT that made mistakes are the ones who purposefully lost/wiped the old lore, which was written by Wyrd, Availer, Blawharag, a number of Aegis Orcs who are no longer with us due to having lives, etc. That is an infallible fact that can be proven and spoken to, and it adds nothing to your cause to protect/defend the actions of the likes of Supremacy and Juno, who demanded Aengudaemonic involvement in every scrap of lore ever existing.

 

I feel I've made my point on this lore proposal and the issues with it, and hope in the future when you submit proposals that you realize they are open to feedback and critique. With any luck Mog will be able to make some progress on having the old lore restored ala the same method the Druids had their lore restored.

 

Peace out and chill out, dude.

 

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Just now, TeaLulu said:

SupremacyPoOps.

 

This is a great trope though right? Lmao.

 

I understand where you're coming from, I'm just concerned that neither of you understand where I'm coming from. And forgive me, I do become rattled when people begin to presume things about me, and the last year of Orcish RP.

 

It came to a very good point by late Vailor, what with the Orgon disease and everything else that was set in motion. Unfortunately it has died down substantially since I took a step back.

 

There are many reasons for me to be disgruntled about the state of the Orcs and the complete lack of assistance from anyone or anything outside of Hedgehug during that period. Nevertheless, that's a tangent and not completely related.

 

Either way, I'm more than happy to put it to vote with contesting lore. I enjoyed writing it at the very least.

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I envy Smawton's endurance to keep up with all these responses

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