Gender vs Gender Roles

[Space 2335]

Hi. In an interest of some new type of people from LotC to talk to, I wanted to try to engage in a discussion with people who are like minded-- sjw libcucks I guess. In my experience there is very few vocal people who are 'on my side' who are interested in discussing topics, which I don't get.

 

But I've had some discussion with other people that have got me thinking about my beliefs, and questioning them, and trying to shift a few things around so I don't suffer from the sorta contradictions I seem to believe in. And a way I think I can test my beliefs and logic is through discussion with others-- probably the only way. And I prefer to do this on a medium where I am familiar with people, 'cause it feels more at home. Also I wanna class up off-topic a bit.

 

 

TL;DR Hey libcucks of LotC, I have a question for you;

 

 

Most people who support non-binary transgender people seem to also seem to support the abolition of gender roles in society- To be more specific and clear, generally people who support concepts such as transgender, genderqueer, genderfluid, etc, also support eliminating the roles that society prescribes specific genders (like men being the leaders, where women are docile, etc in retrospect, this is sorta a flawed way of explaining it, because not everyone would agree that these two examples aren't inherently part of men or women. So better examples would be, things like society making men be the breadwinners and women be the carevgivers to the children).

 

And that describes me pretty well. I do acknowledge heavily physical things like manual labour jobs will favour men due to men being generally physically larger and stronger than women, but reject the notion of any sociological difference in men and women that would lead to massive disparity in representation in different careers, political positions, ability to create art, etc.

 

But, I recently had a discussion about this, and it gave me thought-- Aren't these inherently contradictory statements? If you support this modern view of gender identity, you are saying that these transgender people are born with body dysphoria, thus there is no cure- It is part of your genetic makeup. But, by saying that, are you not saying that people are born with a 'genetic' or 'inherent' gender role, and thus the elimination of gender roles is unfounded because these are things that exist?

 

On the other side, you could say 'well no gender roles don't exist' and thus you have to then say that transgenderism is a psychological thing, a learned thing that is shaped by our environment, which means there is a cure and we should be focused on a cure not letting people 'mutilate' themselves.

 

And that's sorta my issue. I have a few ideas on how you could fix that deadlock-- Which reminds me... Why is that bad? That these ideas are not compatable. And I guess my answer would be that I do not trust myself to be the intense logician that I hope to be, and never assume I've considered all the ideas just by myself. I don't trust myself to even make the assessment that these ideas aren't compatible. Especially when it's two things I hold up as pretty solid personal beliefs that I believe strongly in, independent of each other.

 

I suppose I come off as a bit stubborn, so I guess I should also say that, if I do not find a suitable solution to these issues, I would probably have to 'stop believing' in one. Which would probably just be shifting my argument for transgender rights as more of a personal liberty thing than a like 'medical' defense.

 

Anyways, yeah my dudes, would love to hear some ideas, mainly from people people who already accept one or both of these premises.

 

TL;DR How can support for transgender people co-exist with a support for abolishing traditional gender roles?

[HurferDurfer1 2978]

dont care

[Archipelego 2188]

i like to think of it like this: people are people, and are governed by no set universal laws. therefore, the best thing you can do is not think about the details, and just let people be people.

 

i lack any set ideologies, so it's kinda hard for me to view either side of the discussion. i dont think there's any need to think about the specifics

Just now, HurferDurfer1 said:

dont care

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actually this works too

[ARCHITECUS 4788]

Gender is a spectrum

 

But with the abolition of gender roles, would transgender people be a social issue once they resolve their dysphoria? Once the former is in effect, the latter shouldn't be a problem.

[senor_tortuga 692]

T W O

[InfamousGerman 1553]

tldr

[Space 2335]

9 minutes ago, Archipelego said:

i like to think of it like this: people are people, and are governed by no set universal laws. therefore, the best thing you can do is not think about the details, and just let people be people.

 

i lack any set ideologies, so it's kinda hard for me to view either side of the discussion. i dont think there's any need to think about the specifics

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That doesn't interest me. If I want to be logically consistent and able to engage in discussion with others I need to have my own personal beliefs ironed out and specified as much as possible so the conversation is actually fruitful and I can justify my own beliefs. That is the need to think about specifics.

 

8 minutes ago, Alterazgohg said:

Gender is a spectrum

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That idea can pretty much exist no matter what.

 

 

I just realized a big problem in my main post-- This isn't really about non-binary, it's about trans-gender. Non-binary people could exist no matter what. Gonna fix that.

 

edit- the reason I see non-binary being able to pretty much always be justified is that this mainly has to deal with the 'cause' of the issues, and how you treat them- Non-binary people generally just dress and identify in non-binary ways, they don't usually seek gender reassignment surgery or hormone ****. So even if gender wasn't a hardwired thing, these people would be find because they are just experiencing gender outside of the binary state. I think.

[Vaynth 3005]

Hey, I'd just like to remind everyone to keep your comments on this thread civil, mature, and respectful towards others. So far you guys have been fine, but this thread is very controversial and could easily take a wrong turn. Just letting you know the Fms are keeping an eye on this. Thank you in advance.

[Sky 0]

There are two genders, transgender isn't a gender but a state of being which states someone is actively going out of their way to transition into the other gender, thus meaning if you are a transgender male to female, you are female and vice versa for the female to male. As for gender roles in society, well it's not like people truly give a **** if you are a male who does traditionally female roles and the same for female who does traditionally male roles, the only reason why friction exists is when those who do such things rub it in people's faces and it becomes actually irritating. Your last question makes no sense, transgender again isn't a gender at all thus it can co-exist with something that isn't in the same spectrum. 

[TinyBiceps 569]

1 minute ago, Vaynth said:

Fms are keeping an eye on this

 

okay also - i don't quite understand the dilemma here. anyone who says 'gender roles don't exist' is flat out ignoring every day life.

[Kvasir 1121]

i think that gender roles have a place. I mean, look how far we got with them. 

 

At least minimally, they work. Though they can be reversed or swapped.

 

shrug

you can always have a nurturer and a breadwinner. Though when you have both, the baby or family is raised wrong.

Both Nurturers, you're gonna get hurt 

No breadwinner, you're gonna starve.

[chaotikal 2392]

there's only two genders. Male and female, trans people are just transitioning from one to the other. 

 

there's also only 3 sexual orientations, bisexual, homosexual and heterosexual. all the others are just fetishes and are not blanket sexual behaviour terms.

dont remove me for no reason please.

[Kvasir 1121]

Also, along with the post above me, there are indeed, biologically two genders. And I agree only minimally with the mental things involving transgenderness. Trans is going from being a man to a woman, or woman to man. Hence the word 'trans'

 

If i'm wrong on this, correct me

[Space 2335]

6 minutes ago, Sky said:

There are two genders, transgender isn't a gender but a state of being which states someone is actively going out of their way to transition into the other gender, thus meaning if you are a transgender male to female, you are female and vice versa for the female to male. As for gender roles in society, well it's not like people truly give a **** if you are a male who does traditionally female roles and the same for female who does traditionally male roles, the only reason why friction exists is when those who do such things rub it in people's faces and it becomes actually irritating. Your last question makes no sense, transgender again isn't a gender at all thus it can co-exist with something that isn't in the same spectrum. 

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To be transgender is a gender identity. It is part of your gender identity. Gender is not a binary thing.

 

But I am more interested, in this topic, about discussing the logical difficulty in both these things, not discussing the validity of modern scientific gender theory. That's a different discussion that I've had a lot.

 

5 minutes ago, Amordrin said:

 

okay also - i don't quite understand the dilemma here. anyone who says 'gender roles don't exist' is flat out ignoring every day life.

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I guess it's bad wording. They exist, but we seek to deconstruct them because they are just social constructs.

 

3 minutes ago, Chaotikal said:

there's only two genders. Male and female, trans people are just transitioning from one to the other. 

 

there's also only 3 sexual orientations, bisexual, homosexual and heterosexual. all the others are just fetishes and are not blanket sexual behaviour terms.

dont remove me for no reason please.

0

 

 

nope

[Kvasir 1121]

Just now, (((Space))) said:

Gender is not a binary thing.

i'd like to disagree here, since it is, frankly. 

 

I'm not right nor left... I just have faith in tangible science. I think that its pretty obvious your one or the other, even if you say your transgender, I think that means you are usually identifying as one or the other. 

 

Making it still one or two - Binary is not a bad thing, its just a state of being.