[Community Review] Raids

[Sky 0]

Threads like these are interesting because if you don't pay attention to who is posting you get the illusion that it's disliked by a vast majority of players, when in actuality it is being bombarded by six people who are very loud on the keyboard. Not to say their opinion is incorrect, just an interesting thing. As for the rewrite, honestly I am comfortable with such a rewrite.

[NotEvilAtAll 10906]

1 minute ago, Sky said:

Threads like these are interesting because if you don't pay attention to who is posting you get the illusion that it's disliked by a vast majority of players, when in actuality it is being bombarded by six people who are very loud on the keyboard. Not to say their opinion is incorrect, just an interesting thing. As for the rewrite, honestly I am comfortable with such a rewrite.

So you're saying that the silent majority stands with having every raid act like a mini-warclaim with looting of the chests of people who might not even be online to protect their gear?

[zaezae 1098]

26 minutes ago, Sky said:

Threads like these are interesting because if you don't pay attention to who is posting you get the illusion that it's disliked by a vast majority of players, when in actuality it is being bombarded by six people who are very loud on the keyboard. Not to say their opinion is incorrect, just an interesting thing. As for the rewrite, honestly I am comfortable with such a rewrite.

I think maybe because the rule set AS A WHOLE is indefensible and so no one is willing to defend it? There are several ways to try and spin the thread homie. 

[Narthok 10416]

7 minutes ago, zaezae said:

I think maybe because the rule set AS A WHOLE is indefensible and so no one is willing to defend it? There are several ways to try and spin the thread homie. 

There have been a plurality of folks that have proffered solutions and expressed approval. Those aspects which prompted the most disapproval were removed.

[NotEvilAtAll 10906]

10 minutes ago, zaezae said:

I think maybe because the rule set AS A WHOLE is indefensible and so no one is willing to defend it? There are several ways to try and spin the thread homie. 

I would give this a +1 if I had any reputation left after all the posts about Raids, Traps, Memes, and other things happened today.

[zaezae 1098]

2 minutes ago, Narthok said:

There have been a plurality of folks that have proffered solutions and expressed approval. Those aspects which prompted the most disapproval were removed.

That's why I qualified my statement with "AS A WHOLE". That doesn't mean everything is bad.

[Narthok 10416]

4 minutes ago, zaezae said:

That's why I qualified my statement with "AS A WHOLE". That doesn't mean everything is bad.

So as you've not really given out an opinion yet what do you think needs to be changed of the current rules. Consider this question from the position of both sides rather than your own exclusively. As these rules need to be palpable if not enjoyable to both sides. of the crp vs pvp argument.

[zaezae 1098]

33 minutes ago, Narthok said:

So as you've not really given out an opinion yet what do you think needs to be changed of the current rules. Consider this question from the position of both sides rather than your own exclusively. As these rules need to be palpable if not enjoyable to both sides. of the crp vs pvp argument.

Very well. I wanted to discuss this and that and see what other people said first but it's been all day.

 

Siege equipment doesn't belong in a raid. It doesn't fit what a raid is. Siege equipment should stay with war claims. Ladders make sense but building/rolling siege equipment to perform a 'quick and dirty' attack? It just doesn't make sense. 

 

Unlimited looting of a settlement doesn't make sense for a raid either. Breaking into a city with open violence and then pillaging the /entire/ city is effectively sacking the city. That should only happen during a war claim so that everyone who stands to lose everything has a fair chance to defend themselves. Targeting a limited amount of valuable goods is one thing but unrestricted pillaging from a simple raid is another. 

 

As far as removing anti ladder buttons, forcing raiders to emote in the middle of a pvp fight kinda really doesn't make sense either. Not only is it kinda strange to expect people to type during battle, why wouldn't people just hit the T key -> ctrl + V -> enter? It's what I'd do. I don't know what one could do differently but I think that's an unreasonable expectation.

 

No raider cap is also not fair play for a simple raid. 15 players seems plenty. If you want to bring massive force to sack the city, literally why not use a warclaim? I know CB's aren't working but still, that is warclaim stuff. 

 

NL's shouldn't be expected to PK from a raid unless everyone attacking PK's on pvp death as well. I don't think that's part of the rules but I want to throw that out there. It's unfair to try to pk someone unless you and your buddies are putting your character's on the line as well.

 

14 day cool down for defender victory is excessive. 7-10 days seems fair. 

 

Quote

5.3 A group of Villains operating within the walls or the immediate surroundings (50 blocks from the walls) will be considered an illegal raid if their numbers exceed three.

1. All instigators of illegal raiding shall be Villainy Blacklisted. The leader / high ranking of the party shall receive a double sentence.

 

I have extremely serious reservations about this. A raid is an open attack against a city. (Or maybe sneaking in and stealing **** but we call those kinds of raids 'heists'). Four tough guys pinning some nerd against the wall and taking his lunch money is not a raid. Also what does operating mean? Does that mean it's illegal for a group of baddies hatching a diabolical plan over a few mugs of beer in the tavern? Does it mean extracting information through torture or equally edgy means? 

 

Quote

5.4 You may not instigate a raid if there are fewer than three people in the city at the time of the GM going to broadcast.

1. To clarify when the GM accepts the modreq and goes to perform the warning broadcast if there are less than three people within the city then the raid may not be performed.

2. (This is to prevent cheesy middle of the night raids wherein you take all their pixels while they are asleep.)

This is okay I guess, but I mean, it's still cheesy to attack when five people are online yeah? That's why I believe that if you're going to bring maximum force then you should warclaim to give the defenders a fair chance of actually being there. 

 

Finally, I don't expect anyone to take this part seriously because this is coming from my own personal bias. However, I'd like to see zero tolerance for memes by raiders or defenders. If you're going to force people who don't like pvp raids to take part the very least you can do is pretend to take it seriously. I understand you're all about dynamic rp but I, personally, ignore all rp that is memey. Also, if there was a way for raiders to make the raid personal and something roleplayed out that would be great. I'm not talking the combat portion but rather the aftermath. My favorite raid was a long time ago in a town I can't remember by some dudes I also can't remember. But basically what happened was these dudes rolled up and killed the resistance. They then forced everyone in the city to line up outside their homes. They were looking for an individual, and once they found him, they left with that person to presumably to do edgy things to him. That was fun. I remember that years after it happened. **** like that is a good raid. "UG UG SMASH PIXELS" is what almost all raids feel like now. Yeah, I know us vile filthy erping soyboy elves whine that that's what raids are. But honestly bro? The reason a lot of players say that about raiders is because it's ******* true. 

 

I'm not proof reading anything because I'm sleepy and my grammer is **** when I'm tired. 

 

wanted to add that part of the reason I liked that raid I talked about was we townfolk weren't overly salty about it either. 

[Narthok 10416]

2 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Very well. I wanted to discuss this and that and see what other people said first but it's been all day.

 

Siege equipment doesn't belong in a raid. It doesn't fit what a raid is. Siege equipment should stay with war claims. Ladders make sense but building/rolling siege equipment to perform a 'quick and dirty' attack? It just doesn't make sense. 

 

Unlimited looting of a settlement doesn't make sense for a raid either. Breaking into a city with open violence and then pillaging the /entire/ city is effectively sacking the city. That should only happen during a war claim so that everyone who stands to lose everything has a fair chance to defend themselves. Targeting a limited amount of valuable goods is one thing but unrestricted pillaging from a simple raid is another. 

 

As far as removing anti ladder buttons, forcing raiders to emote in the middle of a pvp fight kinda really doesn't make sense either. Not only is it kinda strange to expect people to type during battle, why wouldn't people just hit the T key -> ctrl + V -> enter? It's what I'd do. I don't know what one could do differently but I think that's an unreasonable expectation.

 

No raider cap is also not fair play for a simple raid. 15 players seems plenty. If you want to bring massive force to sack the city, literally why not use a warclaim? I know CB's aren't working but still, that is warclaim stuff. 

 

NL's shouldn't be expected to PK from a raid unless everyone attacking PK's on pvp death as well. I don't think that's part of the rules but I want to throw that out there. It's unfair to try to pk someone unless you and your buddies are putting your character's on the line as well.

 

14 day cool down for defender victory is excessive. 7-10 days seems fair. 

 

 

I have extremely serious reservations about this. A raid is an open attack against a city. (Or maybe sneaking in and stealing **** but we call those kinds of raids 'heists'). Four tough guys pinning some nerd against the wall and taking his lunch money is not a raid. Also what does operating mean? Does that mean it's illegal for a group of baddies hatching a diabolical plan over a few mugs of beer in the tavern? Does it mean extracting information through torture or equally edgy means? 

 

This is okay I guess, but I mean, it's still cheesy to attack when five people are online yeah? That's why I believe that if you're going to bring maximum force then you should warclaim to give the defenders a fair chance of actually being there. 

 

Finally, I don't expect anyone to take this part seriously because this is coming from my own personal bias. However, I'd like to see zero tolerance for memes by raiders or defenders. If you're going to force people who don't like pvp raids to take part the very least you can do is pretend to take it seriously. I understand you're all about dynamic rp but I, personally, ignore all rp that is memey. Also, if there was a way for raiders to make the raid personal and something roleplayed out that would be great. I'm not talking the combat portion but rather the aftermath. My favorite raid was a long time ago in a town I can't remember by some dudes I also can't remember. But basically what happened was these dudes rolled up and killed the resistance. They then forced everyone in the city to line up outside their homes. They were looking for an individual, and once they found him, they left with that person to presumably to do edgy things to him. That was fun. I remember that years after it happened. **** like that is a good raid. "UG UG SMASH PIXELS" is what almost all raids feel like now. Yeah, I know us vile filthy erping soyboy elves whine that that's what raids are. But honestly bro? The reason a lot of players say that about raiders is because it's ******* true. 

 

I'm not proof reading anything because I'm sleepy.

Point 1. I want to test it and see how it influences how raids play out 

 

Point 2. Chest looting was axed entirely because it didn't add enough value to warrant the generated salt

 

point 3 laddering is usually done before pvp starts, actually it is only done before pvp since you stealth over a wall then you start the raid. I would be very impressed if someone rped breaking buttons during a pvp.

 

point 4 people don't rally for raids nearly as much as they rally for warclaims atleast in the offensive manner. I do not think you'll see anything bigger than a 25 man raid unless a really big war breaks out. 

 

point 5 NLs are never expected to PK its more of an honour thing, especially amongst humans.

 

point 6 I'll be hitting any raider that I catch memeing and such with an appropriate punishment, all evidence of that kind of thing should be sent to me. Raiding is not an excuse to goof off on your jihadi or mentally disabled orc persona. Nor is the intent of a raid to make other people miserable. These kinds of things will warrant strong warnings if not bans. Meme rp is a cancer, especially when it is forced and very much out of place and has no placea on lotc. 

[zaezae 1098]

Look, I feel you on all the points. But if the behavior of raids improve I'd personally promise to never be salty because ath that point, it's just RP.

[Narthok 10416]

5 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Look, I feel you on all the points. But if the behavior of raids improve I'd personally promise to never be salty because ath that point, it's just RP.

[blago 1602]

Wow these are really nice, buddy!

[drfate786 1690]

11 hours ago, PosidonX7 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I agree with everything stated above.

 

BIG NO. While this may seem like a good idea at getting rid of smaller settlements, you have also just killed the influx of new players to the server. I'm not a fan of rampant free builds everywhere anymore than any other person trying to get activity in the major nation they are a part of. But, as soon as the new player makes their new place, or joins the smaller settlement, they will get absolutely destroyed. This will cause them to be less likely to stay on the server and they might even search for other rp servers. While is does seem like a good idea in the short term, it's long term effects upon the player influx of LoTC could be damaging and substantial.

 

No, you haven't been here long enough to see what the opposite of your statement has done to the community. Additionally, he didn't make any rules on defenses.. Feel free to use that to defend your settlements.

10 hours ago, zaezae said:

So the attackers can spend any amount of time mustering people to get on for an attack with an unlimited amount of players but the defenders can't? Both sides should be allowed to muster properly. Especially if the attackers can steal absolutely everything regardless if the owner of the items is even online?

 

 

 

Common sense, a GM won't let them raid a settlement that's empty at 1 AM in the morning. The goal here is to get rid of off hour raiding, not enforce it.. Just imagine how bad it would be if the camel bandits could raid the dominion when no one is on, break their gates and then loot all of their houses and treasuries. Also, traps.. You can make traps.

5 hours ago, WuHanXianShi14 said:

You got empirical proof of that or is that just your opinion, one youre using your status to try and force through onto the whole server?

 

Wolfkite's rules post is a lot closer to the current rules, and seems to have a lot more unanimous support and far less opposition than your proposed thread.

 

In reality, you don't want his raid rules to be a thing because that would mean the dominion has to actually defend their land from invaders and won't be able to use OOC barriers to protect themselves from RP driven damage. It would mean you can actually lose and you don't like losing, none of you do. I, as a Necro/spook am more at risk of being raided then you are (especially if I ever made an active base) and I see no issue with these rules since I have the brains required to learn from mistakes and build on them.

 

Maybe you should pay attention to the fact that the raid rules as is are detrimental to the game as you can't harm a nation. There's no way to cause any harm to a nation group currently due to rampant OOC barriers preventing this from happening, it's funny because back in the day people weren't upset about being raided.. People looked up to being raided so they could defend their city and if they failed then big whoop, people rarely PK'ed from raids and likely won't PK to this day.

 

 

[Enlightenment 2295]

There isn't any problem with the current raid rules, only the elves being salty over their weakness and incompetence to deal with raiders.

[Narthok 10416]

 

Most up to date incarnation of the proposal accounting for the suggestions of mostly Jaeden, Sky and Leo. Overwhelming community feedback has made it quite apparent that the chests clause is unacceptable and therefore has been removed. Sky's trap suggestions have been added with some clarifications.

 

Tentative Raid Rules Rewrite 0.5

---

Section 1.0 Raid Procedure

1.1 To initiate a raid the leader of a raiding party must modreq one hour in advance of the raid

1. The handling GM must then provide a warning regional broadcast to the target. The raid will arrive one hour from the broadcast not from the posting of the modreq.

 

1.2 Raids must be launched from an established base

1. A base being henceforth defined as a Major Freebuild or Nation. You may not launch raids from random freebuild huts or dirt holes. RP cave hideouts are fine but must be of an appropriate scale.

 

1.3 Characters involved in a raid must have demonstrable allegiances

1. One day raid characters will not be tolerated. Your character must be rped to some degree to participate in raids.

 

1.4 Any individual that is downed during the duration of a raid (within the confines of the raided settlement and its immediacy) may be captured even if they are popped or D40. To do so make a modreq while providing a screencap of the individual being downed, ideally accompanied by a timestamp.

1. If someone is executed or bleeds out during the raid they may not be captured / tped back.

 

1.5 Any individual that is downed during the duration of the raid (within the confines of the raided settlement and its immediacy) may have their head or body taken without consent.

1. NPCS may be made of an individual to represent them having been executed. Or a head can be requested of a moderator without the need for player consent.

2. The victim who’s body or head has been taken must be alerted.

 

1.6 Launching a raid negates any raid cooldowns you have immediately. You are fully vulnerable to being raided.

 

1.7 A raid will last for an hour after it begins as defined above. After an hour raiders shall be removed from the city and given a victory.

 

Section 2.0 Raid Mechanics

2.1 A raid ‘begins’ formally once the raiding party enters the region of the targeted settlement. Or for freebuild settlements, are within 50 blocks of the outermost wall or structure of said settlement.

1. Once the raid has begun the supervising moderator will alert both sides that PvP is now ‘on’. PvP remains ‘on’ until the moderator specifically alerts the leadership of the offensive and defensive party.

2. The supervising moderator must alert both sides as to the statuses of the opposing side to minimize confusion.

 

2.2 Ladders must be placed vertically, in a continuous realistic fashion.

1. In a regioned area your supervising moderator will place the ladders for you

2. In a freebuild area you may place the ladders yourself

   1. Troll ladder placements will be met with a blacklist.

 

2.3 Battering Rams may be purchased at the Cloud Temple for (20000 minas for heavy or 10000 for light).The Ram comes in the heavy (with arrow shield) or light (without shield) variants.

1. A Battering Ram must be deployed at a gate

   1. A gate is henceforth defined as an entry point to a settlement generally formed in an arch a minimum of three blocks high and two wide. The gate is formed of iron bars or any variety of wooden fencing.

   2. In the absence of  a ‘gate’ any ‘citizen’s door’ may replace the ‘gate’.

2. The Battering Ram must be operated by punching the sign on the back of the Ram. (resembling the existing trebuchet sign)

3. For the defenders to disable the Ram they must break the 5 iron blocks at the core of the ram.

   1. All the iron blocks in the core must be mined out to disable the ram.

   2. The Ram may not be repaired by replacing iron blocks. You may not replace the iron blocks that were mined nor may you place new iron blocks. Once an iron block has been removed from the Ram it may not be repaired period.

 

2.4 Raiders may attempt to remove anti ladder buttons. They must provide the appropriate emote, while supervised by the supervising Moderator. A roll of ten will break a button. A raid party may roll ten times.

 

2.5 You cannot construct "Instant" Death Traps.
-"Instant" being traps that lock you into place and kill you without any interaction.

1. Traps which cause more than five hearts of damage are prohibited.
   -All traps are required to give the trapped individual the ability to escape, including utilizing the lockpick plugin.
   --Pathways of escape cannot be able to be blocked off.
   -Lava, and magma blocks are prohibited within any trap.
   -During PvP instances trap interactions do not require emotes.
   -Outside of PvP instances trap interactions must be emoted.

 

Section 3.0 Types of Raids

3.1 The Offensive Raid, the first type of raid, this raid is the basic raid conducted by aggressors.

 

3.2 The Retaliatory Raid, should the defending party succeed in repulsing the aggressors they may choose to retaliate.

1. A retaliatory raid must be launched within an hour of victory being declared (by the GM via broadcast) and requires a modreq.

2. A retaliatory raid may not be retaliated for the sake of not having endless fringe tier raid cycles.

3. Retaliatory raids will ignore cooldowns.

 

3.3 The Rescue Raid, for the purposes of simplicity the rescue raid will act like a retaliatory raid.

1. The faction launching the rescue raid must demonstrate rp knowledge of a kidnapping.

2. A kidnapping is where an individual was actually captured not someone that wandered into the settlement and bothered the guards.

 

Section 4.0 Cooldowns and Caps

4.1 There is no limit on numbers for any offensive or defensive raid action.

 

4.2 If the aggressors are victorious the settlement’s raid cooldown shall be Forty Eight Hours from the beginning of the raid.

 

4.3 If the defenders are victorious the settlement’s raid cooldown shall be Fourteen Days from the day of the raid.

 

4.5 If the defenders are victorious in both repulsing the first raid and in the retaliatory raid then the settlement’s raid cooldown shall be Twenty One Days.

 

Section 5.0 Preemptive Defining of Terms and Clarifying of Blurred Lines

5.1 A raid is defined as a hostile action committed by an organized group, launched from a point of origin.

1. To secure the benefits and such of a raid the above definition must be fulfilled and overseen by a Moderator.

 

5.2 Defenders are victorious if they hold off the raiders for one hour. Victors are victorious if they defeat all the defenders or force them to flee or hide.

 

5.3 A group of Villains operating within the walls or the immediate surroundings (50 blocks from the walls) will be considered an illegal raid if their numbers exceed four.

1. All instigators of illegal raiding shall be Villainy Blacklisted. The leader / high ranking of the party shall receive a double sentence.

 

5.4 You may not instigate a raid if there are fewer than four people in the city at the time of the GM going to broadcast.

1. To clarify when the GM accepts the modreq and goes to perform the warning broadcast if there are less than three people within the city then the raid may not be performed.

2. (This is to prevent cheesy middle of the night raids wherein you take all their pixels while they are asleep.)

 

5.5 Gatehouses and Anklebiters are not traps.