[✗] [Lore Amendment] Corcituri

[Luxury 603]

1 minute ago, __WaterFox__ said:

Corcs don't have disguises. The only way they can alter themselves is by making themselves obviously vampiric, which was a way a corc was caught.

 

The fact that they look identical to descendants is a perfect disguise in my opinion.

 

I’m pretty sure we used to play together back in the day iirc! That kind of roleplay you used is by no means simple, and it will definitely never become standard on the server.

 

I have to hold on to my take that removing the failsafe check is a unnecessary buff, as long as there are no other indications of origin.

[__WaterFox__ 631]

9 minutes ago, Luxury said:

 

The fact that they look identical to descendants is a perfect disguise in my opinion.

 

I’m pretty sure we used to play together back in the day iirc! That kind of roleplay you used is by no means simple, and it will definitely never become standard on the server.

 

I have to hold on to my take that removing the failsafe check is a unnecessary buff, as long as there are no other indications of origin.

We probably did! That asides the two emotes of rp to expose a corc is in no way equivalent to the amount of rp a corc has to go through to safely feed or try to hide themselves if they do get caught. Most other dark creatures barely have tells and have much more boons than a corc does. Someone once called corc an entry level to villainy and honestly I agree with that. Even if this amendment passes a corc offers more responsibility and weaknesses than it does benefits.

[Pureimp10 5179]

i have never once in my life met a spook that actually rped anything that gave an indication to their true identity. the fail-safe test exists because they do everything in their power not to get caught (which is understandable).

 

removing the salt removes any realistic counter since any kind of investigative or interrogation rp is restricted by rules on capturing/imprisonment, and any other kind of weakness is downplayed significantly to the point of redundancy.

 

also this is minecraft lol there's only so much investigating you can do. in the end it all just comes down to a guess (fueled by ooc knowledge or not). it also means that people will just mechanically avoid players that they know play spook chars. is it metagaming? yea. will you be able to prove it without it being in writing? no.

 

like luxury said, you cant have it both ways. either the entire corc community actually shows their flaws and weaknesses or they submit to the salt

Edited July 18, 2023 by Pureimp10

[PrimnyaQuorum 1039]

5 minutes ago, Borin said:

Good. This is how they should have to rp. To happy GOD fearing man corcs and other spooks are the enemy, and as in real life sort of witch trial stuff, there are times when random/mass testing happens, and if theres any suspicion you can and will be investigated and ganked.

 

My point is, those playing these creatures SHOULD be forced to be careful and cover their tracks, and if somewhere does practice mass testing or is particularly suspicious, namely my sort of human canonist community where the church has the power and will to run about testing people OR the orcs I believe (?), they should rlly just stay away instead of throwing themselves into danger if they rlly dont wanna be caught.

I don't think mass testing contributes anything, though. Sure, you can cut every person who comes by with some aurum blade and pour a little salt - where are you getting the salt from? How often is that aurum blade being cleaned and sharpened? Are people willing to spread a infection after getting a cut infected from a uncleaned blade? There are several reasons any rational person might not want to be tested that are ignored because, frankly, they're more of a inconvenience then something relevant - no one cares how sharp a blade is or where the salt is sourced from, and plague's don't happen on LoTC so who cares about infections? 

 

In essence, there is take and no give - Corcs can be discovered can be discovered by a simple, 2 emote test preformed by every poor city guard armed with a aurum blade and a endless supply of salt, with no way to work around it except... not roleplaying in these places. It feels like such a poor argument to say "Don't like it? Don't RP here" or "This is how X ought to be"- and this all assumes a perfect universe, where no one holds a OOC grudge to justify a "random" test in the middle of a road out in nowhere land. Why is the burden placed on darkspawn players to provide good roleplay when shortcuts are taken at every possible turn to out them IRPly, nevermind whatever happens OOCly?

 

The change, in my opinion, doesn't make corcs harder to test - it does absolutely nothing to address the OOC/Discord VC mindset that creates this bad faith RP, though little can - it simply increases the risk of killing or seriously wounding a innocent character in the name of mass testing, and requires a larger investment of resources IRPly to test in that you have to treat people who are tested, unless you intend to leave them to die. If it's so important to human canonist communities that they get their darkspawn test in, then it should be no problem to build the IRP networks needed to keep it going. This change simply forces the give and take onto the otherwise minimized and shortcut darkspawn test. 

 

Other's earlier have suggested pretty good ideas, in my opinion, and I don't think they should all be mutually exclusive. In Example: 

2 hours ago, Cloakedsphere said:

Maybe by amending that over the years and as corcitura evolve, they have a built up immunity to the salts through valid roleplay.

 

3 hours ago, Unwillingly said:

I dont exactly think this amendment is a good solution, but another potential solution I had in mind would be for the corcitura salt-weakness only being applicable while they're transformed, denoting them as a revealed dark creature. this allows them to retain salt as a tangible weakness while removing the possibility of egregious gate-testing or impromptu patrols who just "happen" to approach you asking to cut your palm. this could even be coupled with an amendment stating that one corcitura cannot feed on the same person within x time as to encourage them to interact with new faces instead of the same player over and over again in the case this amendment is made

 

What's to say the artery cutting + salt testing works, but over time Corcs build up a passive resistance to salt in blood - thus explaining why such a large amount of blood is needed to show results and why new corcs can still be found by a shallow cut and salt test? Why not say, as with other magics, that things like Thanium could 'reveal' a corc, thus rendering them vulnerable to a salt in blood test? Both of these are options that require the tester to do more then just make a minor cut and poor a little salt - again, a nothingburger of 2 emotes that lack the most basic of give and take.

 

In short, you cant have the cake and eat it too - you cant demand to keep a simple test that is all of 2 emotes and 1 minute and expect corcs to simply provide good roleplay around you. The test either needs to become more difficult to preform, or less effective on a corc. 

 

 

[satinkira 5978]

It’s not on the shoulders of the average player to provide intriguing detective RP to corcs. It’s on the shoulders of corcs to provide intriguing RP to players, as they’re the ones with special abilities and flairs - nothing too major, but enough to make it interesting. I personally don’t know how you deal with this sorta thing, but I’m willing to bet that most corc players don’t adhere to the principle of give and take rp - instead focusing on not getting caught. Just yesterday, I saw players oocly discussing mutating someone with tawkin to prevent them from being caught by the local authorities (keeping it vague to prevent metagaming on either end.)
The point is, it is ultimately you who should be working to provide RP. Corcs are, in general, a more casual Darkspawn CA, and it’s usually treated like such by the players themselves; not many really bother going further with the CA than they need to, maybe joining a coven but mostly keeping to doing normal day to day stuff. Obviously, levelling a city is a bit ambitious (or maybe not! Depends on how ambitious you are) but as things stand, you can’t really blame players for wanting to simply get rid of what is, essentially, a pest invasion of dark creatures who don’t do anything except sit and form sometimes form covens. I don’t like salt testing, but for corcs, at least, it’s not unfair.
this could be hilariously out of touch by the way (I am right five months ago!!!) so let me know if it is. I know at least some of it isn’t tho

16 minutes ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

I don't think mass testing contributes anything, though. Sure, you can cut every person who comes by with some aurum blade and pour a little salt - where are you getting the salt from? How often is that aurum blade being cleaned and sharpened? Are people willing to spread a infection after getting a cut infected from a uncleaned blade? There are several reasons any rational person might not want to be tested that are ignored because, frankly, they're more of a inconvenience then something relevant - no one cares how sharp a blade is or where the salt is sourced from, and plague's don't happen on LoTC so who cares about infections? 

 

In essence, there is take and no give - Corcs can be discovered can be discovered by a simple, 2 emote test preformed by every poor city guard armed with a aurum blade and a endless supply of salt, with no way to work around it except... not roleplaying in these places. It feels like such a poor argument to say "Don't like it? Don't RP here" or "This is how X ought to be"- and this all assumes a perfect universe, where no one holds a OOC grudge to justify a "random" test in the middle of a road out in nowhere land. Why is the burden placed on darkspawn players to provide good roleplay when shortcuts are taken at every possible turn to out them IRPly, nevermind whatever happens OOCly?

[Cloakedsphere 1462]

10 hours ago, __WaterFox__ said:

If it must I would find this a good compromise, but I think any mechanic that allows for someone to instantaneously find out a character is dark with extremely minimal rp is a bad mechanic that should not exist. If a mechanic at all allows for an easy way for people to skirt meta rules it is a bad mechanic and I would bet money there is a better way to tackle whatever ever issue that bad mechanic was trying to handle.

 

As far as recent events for corcs go it is to my knowledge that most were exposed prior to be salt tested or salt testing was not needed due to quality of the evidence.This amendment was mainly inspired by conversations I've had with others who were struggling with hunters using the most vague of rumors and suspicions to try to hunt them. Many corc players are keenly aware of how any level of suspicion can result in a salt test and how from that point on they are kinda fucked unless they can take far more actions in rp to disguise themselves than the hunters did in hunting them. Quite a few corcs have or are currently handling rp like that.

Of course. I'm not at all disagreeing with your standpoint of there needing to be some fix. But I think changing the mechanic itself is targeting the wrong root of the problem. The issue is exclusively the players abusing the mechanic, not the mechanic itself. Just hence why I believe something like built up immunity over time for maybe more veteran corcitura ( let's say, after 3 feedings or however it works, a corcitura gains the inherent ability to be immune to salt tests unless a major artery is cut due to their growing power) and newer corcitura remaining susceptible to the salts is a much better resolution just in my honest opinion. 

[__WaterFox__ 631]

15 minutes ago, satinkira said:

It’s not on the shoulders of the average player to provide intriguing detective RP to corcs. It’s on the shoulders of corcs to provide intriguing RP to players, as they’re the ones with special abilities and flairs - nothing too major, but enough to make it interesting. I personally don’t know how you deal with this sorta thing, but I’m willing to bet that most corc players don’t adhere to the principle of give and take rp - instead focusing on not getting caught. Just yesterday, I saw players oocly discussing mutating someone with tawkin to prevent them from being caught by the local authorities (keeping it vague to prevent metagaming on either end.)
The point is, it is ultimately you who should be working to provide RP. Corcs are, in general, a more casual Darkspawn CA, and it’s usually treated like such by the players themselves; not many really bother going further with the CA than they need to, maybe joining a coven but mostly keeping to doing normal day to day stuff. Obviously, levelling a city is a bit ambitious (or maybe not! Depends on how ambitious you are) but as things stand, you can’t really blame players for wanting to simply get rid of what is, essentially, a pest invasion of dark creatures who don’t do anything except sit and form sometimes form covens. I don’t like salt testing, but for corcs, at least, it’s not unfair.
this could be hilariously out of touc

Hilariously out of touch is turning dark spawn players into mini dm's. No dark spawn, dark mage, holy mages, or literally anyone bares the responsibility to give you rp. Your idea about covens also shows how little you know about the corc playerbase since that is already something most corcs participate in so they can better protect each other. Using tawkins to alter one's appearance thereby going by another persona entirely still requires more work than salt testing 

7 minutes ago, Cloakedsphere said:

Of course. I'm not at all disagreeing with your standpoint of there needing to be some fix. But I think changing the mechanic itself is targeting the wrong root of the problem. The issue is exclusively the players abusing the mechanic, not the mechanic itself. Just hence why I believe something like built up immunity over time for maybe more veteran corcitura ( let's say, after 3 feedings or however it works, a corcitura gains the inherent ability to be immune to salt tests unless a major artery is cut due to their growing power) and newer corcitura remaining susceptible to the salts is a much better resolution just in my honest opinion. 

If a mechanic encourages poor behavior then I consider the mechanic bad, but if this amendment fails this definitely would be a direction I would look in. Regardless you can still salt test people, you just better be very certain you are right before killing or brutalizing that person.

[satinkira 5978]

1 minute ago, __WaterFox__ said:

Hilariously out of touch is turning dark spawn players into mini dm's. No dark spawn, dark mage, holy mages, or literally anyone bares the responsibility to give you rp. Your idea about covens also shows how little you know about the corc playerbase since that is already something most corcs participate in so they can better protect each other. Using tawkins to alter one's appearance thereby going by another persona entirely still requires more work than salt testing 

I’m not saying that corc players should turn into mini dms, I’m saying they should take a more active role in providing rp. No-one has the responsibility of giving me, specifically, rp, and I’m not saying they should. But they should at least interact with the rest of the playerbase from time to time in a villainous manner (or morally grey; corc is one of the few CAs where it’s not unfair to do that) so that things like salt testing don’t become normalised. You are the bad guy (or at least perceived as such by everyone who isn’t a darkspawn); you are a demonic creature who the average god-fearing canonist vehemently fears. Don’t be surprised when a lazy policy towards outwards rp is met with lazy countermeasures.

[marikandaperc 1174]

1 minute ago, satinkira said:

 But they should at least interact with the rest of the playerbase from time to time in a villainous manner (or morally grey; corc is one of the few CAs where it’s not unfair to do that) so that things like salt testing don’t become normalised. 

This you describe is the reason why salt tests are a thing 

[satinkira 5978]

1 minute ago, marikandaperc said:

This you describe is the reason why salt tests are a thing 

Yeah, but it’s lame and ultimately bad for rp if an aspiring corc player is instantly met with a salt test at the gate and slaughtered. It encourages the exact opposite of what darkspawn should be doing; getting out and doing stuff. And, no, there are no ways to creatively get around it, since you can’t get over gates and if the gate is being gatekept with salt testing then you’re fucked.

[marikandaperc 1174]

4 minutes ago, satinkira said:

Yeah, but it’s lame and ultimately bad for rp if an aspiring corc player is instantly met with a salt test at the gate and slaughtered. It encourages the exact opposite of what darkspawn should be doing; getting out and doing stuff. And, no, there are no ways to creatively get around it, since you can’t get over gates and if the gate is being gatekept with salt testing then you’re fucked.

 

What I meant is that you say corcituri should be interacting with the player base as villains more often, yet when they do everyone starts doing mandatory tests. You're going against your own point

Edited July 18, 2023 by marikandaperc

[satinkira 5978]

1 minute ago, marikandaperc said:

 

What I meant is that you say corcituri should be interacting with the player base as villains more often, yet when they do everyone starts doing mandatory tests. You're going against your own point

No. I’m saying mandatory testing should be removed to enable more interaction between corcs and normal players, whilst also saying that corcs should.. do more

[Unwillingly 11213]

51 minutes ago, satinkira said:

It’s not on the shoulders of the average player to provide intriguing detective RP to corcs. It’s on the shoulders of corcs to provide intriguing RP to players

this is a not great mentality to have by virtue of implying that the average non-magic-non-creature player shouldn't have to pursue a story or engaging RP the way CA creatures are expected to. CAs and magics might have more unique flavorful tools at their disposal but not having them should never exempt players from the expectation of pursuing an engaging story. also reinforces this elitism mentality of darkspawn only being shitty plot devices meant to give MY ooc nation community RP and I don't WANT them in my community OOCly and I wish they'd just not be allowed to interact with the rest of the server because I don't WANT them here OOCly so I'll just filter them so I never have the chance of interacting with one for more than 5 minutes

 

[__WaterFox__ 631]

1 minute ago, satinkira said:

No. I’m saying mandatory testing should be removed to enable more interaction between corcs and normal players, whilst also saying that corcs should.. do more

I mean if this cop out mechanic is removed they will. Recently there was an issue where a corc was being suspected because of their name and happening to be seen around a group of players once. That was it. That would be enough to get salt tested. Really hard to rp when any little thing can and will be used to justify a salt test. From other corcs I've talked to they are very excited about getting this cop out mechanic changed so they can actually go rp without risk of being salt tested (then killed or losing corc) for little things like their char didn't like a torch in their face or was wearing dark clothes.

[satinkira 5978]

5 minutes ago, Unwillingly said:

this is a not great mentality to have by virtue of implying that the average non-magic-non-creature player shouldn't have to pursue a story or engaging RP the way CA creatures are expected to. CAs and magics might have more unique flavorful tools at their disposal but not having them should never exempt players from the expectation of pursuing an engaging story. also reinforces this elitism mentality of darkspawn only being shitty plot devices meant to give MY ooc nation community RP and I don't WANT them in my community OOCly and I wish they'd just not be allowed to interact with the rest of the server because I don't WANT them here OOCly so I'll just filter them so I never have the chance of interacting with one for more than 5 minutes

 

Sure, this is fair. What I meant to say was that it isn’t on the shoulders of the average player to go out and seek darkspawn rp (obviously, there are groups like the inquisition, but they’re the exception.) I agree with you though.

 

4 minutes ago, __WaterFox__ said:

I mean if this cop out mechanic is removed they will. Recently there was an issue where a corc was being suspected because of their name and happening to be seen around a group of players once. That was it. That would be enough to get salt tested. Really hard to rp when any little thing can and will be used to justify a salt test. From other corcs I've talked to they are very excited about getting this cop out mechanic changed so they can actually go rp without risk of being salt tested (then killed or losing corc) for little things like their char didn't like a torch in their face or was wearing dark clothes.

 

I’m glad. I hope good rp comes from a result of this push for change.