the case for banning homophobia

[Ibn Khaldun 7729]

Moderation Comment

 

I am not going to read through the first 1-7 pages of this thread as this was created when I had my tickets for Dune 2. The last 2 pages so far, have been civil (for the most part), on both sides of the debate. I caution both sides to avoid ad hominem attacks. If you have included an ad hominem attack in your replies in the last 2 pages, I recommend you remove them or I will edit them out. Cheers, have a good day!

[argonian 12839]

46 minutes ago, satinkira said:

 

high elves aren't allowed to call dark elves the n-word

45 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said:

 

Where is this coming from? I was part of Haelunor from the mid to end of last map through to the start of this map, and didn't once see any sort of RP regarding dark elves or those sorts of slurs both IRP and in the Discord chats I had access to. If anything, Helves have more of an issue with Wood Elves due to how nature-loving and grubby they perceive them to be. If you have genuine proof/evidence of this taking place, it is worthwhile reporting because I highly doubt it would get brushed off. I'm not going to outright disbelieve you, but I would absolutely take care when throwing accusations like that out.

Their whole schtick is that they're pure because they're blonde and white lol.

 

46 minutes ago, satinkira said:

and no-one is looking to introduce gay genderfluid half-orc saints into canonism; I understand the point of hyperbole but you're being ridiculous. imo your point about wanting to introduce 21st century standards on human rights/moral norms is also bullshit lmfao; I replied to a status update abt this recently but the really basic points about the sanctity of life, legal rights, religious freedoms, are all trampled into the mud by both elves and humans and its disingenuous to suggest that removing irl-based prejudice is going to lead to a woke-ification of lotc. gritty dark fantasy medieval groups like necros play perfectly satisfactory villains and embrace the medieval and fantastical role without homophobia. 

45 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said:

Absolutely wild exaggeration of what is being requested.

It's not hyperbole though. I'm not making the argument that "same-sex marriage" = "genderfluid High Pontiff" - but if you read the arguments being made in the thread, it's that people shouldn't have to face discrimination which could occur in the real world against their characters. And you do agree that it's discrimination to say "you can't be a priest because you're transgender", right? Or that it's bigoted to intentionally refer to someone with the wrong pronouns? So then, if the King of Haense has a sex-change, and your character refers to him her as "the King" rather than "the Queen", that is an IRL form of bigotry being roleplayed, and therefore not allowed.

 

So under these terms it would indeed be necessary to treat people as equals regardless of their gender identity, sexuality, or any other IRL grounds for prejudice in roleplay. Which I'm not saying is a bad thing in-and-of-itself (i.e. so long as it's coherent and not taken to absurd extremes like "rich characters can't bully poor ones"), but which I used to demonstrate the hypocrisy that High Elves can do high-key ethnostate RP but humans come under fire for anything.

 

As for those other forms of discrimination: legal rights are a bust, after all the whole debate is about the legal right to marriage in roleplay. Sanctity of life? If you mean "killing people is bad", then there's no grounds for discrimination among any of the main races or religions on the server, but if you want to talk about abo- let's not. As for religious freedom, religious discrimination is absolutely something people suffer from and are even murdered for IRL, so even that's a dodgy one - these may be fictional religions but someone who's a pagan IRL could feel persecuted if their pagan character is, and someone who's a Muslim IRL may feel that persecution of Al-Rashidun hits too close to home, Canonism and like any major branch of Christianity, etc.

 

So this stance of "prejudice which can occur IRL and bring up traumas must just be banned" is a very broad statement. Definitely should be true in cases, but as a general rule it bans almost everything.

 

46 minutes ago, satinkira said:

as for wanting to remove the canonist church, that isn't my aim and it isn't something I support

on the matter of the vision for the server - it's a generally accepted fact that lotc has no set niche and that it basically depends where you go, which is fine because different communities roleplay differently. canonism and medieval european larp has its place, as druidism has its place, as spooks have their place. 

Wasn't accusing you in particular of that but it was very clear in a number of comments that that wouldn't satisfy them.

 

45 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said:

Final take - This is a medieval fantasy server in which we literally publish our own lore and create our own magics. Why can't we create our own culture and version of history? Why must we follow history so accurately that we are forced to have a Canonist religion unaccepting of same-sex marriages etc.? This is literally a fantasy server, be more creative.

I don't think we do. Canonism's theological points are based on its own scripture, which sure were influenced by IRL in that the guys who wrote it exist in the real world, but no one is making arguments from the Bible. As an aside, one of the guys who wrote the Scrolls is gay irl and actually realised they'd purely serendipitously included nothing anti-homosexuality in the Scrolls when MissToni brought the topic into the limelight a few years ago. Big debate about it at the time, with there being nothing in the Scrolls against homosexuality per se, but with them condemning any kind of extra-marital sex, and with an implication that marriage is to "be frutiful and multiply". So at the time Viros spitballed creating a sacrament for same-sex unions, both platonic and romantic (because it can't be a sin in Canonism to merely express romantic love for someone, only whether same-sex marriages could exist was unclear). And I agreed with the proposal.

 

Didn't happen in the end, but whatever you think of the decision-making process, it was based on what's stated in the Scrolls and the theology surrounding it. And the Church has made a number of doctrinal changes based on such exegesis. 

 

45 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said:

In my last comment on a thread regarding this topic, I made the argument that there are other nations you can RP in, and a line has to be drawn on how far you can go w/ homophobia etc. This thread has altered that opinion. I have to agree with the vast majority - if it is affecting and troubling players to that extent, while giving the 'attackers' some strange sense of euphoria to bully or even just troll another player, then remove it. Characters can be uncomfortable with the idea, sure. It'd be the same as a lesbian feeling uncomfortable with a straight male trying to romance her in some form. But genuine prejudice and attacks are unnecessary.

Does this even happen though? Who actually goes around hunting gay characters? The only big scandal I remember is when a prince had a homosexual affair - but like it's a prince and it's an affair, it's gonna be a scandal either way.

 

Rules against behaviour which would make players uncomfortable, however hard they might be to word, are appropriate. But rules banning IRP prejudice (that is, total legal and social equality for any protected classes irl, since that what it amounts to) will have a lot of implications to deal with which I don't think people are actually confronting themselves with. 

 

45 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said:

I don't understand how two gay elves can walk into a human city like Haense and no one bats an eye because "it's the elven way to do things", but they can't fathom two humans sharing a similar love.

I mean two gay elves in a human city would be insulted and treated as weirdo heathens with freakish practices. That's a far cry from being treated equally, or with respect.

 

 

[Kaiser 1357]

Regardless of your stance on this topic, it always amazes me when these sorts of topics come up on racism or homophobia and whether we should ban it, or what not, but still have the juxtaposition of extreme violence being allowed. For instance, you mentioned crucifixion of homosexuals by crusaders. The issues you have is that they're being crucified for being gay, but the actual act of crucifying someone, basically torturing them to death, isn't even mentioned as odd.

I don't have a 'point' to that, but food for thought. We tend to be against obscenity against protected groups, but not against the obscenity itself. 

[Amayonnaise 1535]

10 minutes ago, Franczhiz said:

This seems like disrespect, although I do not know whether @Amayonnaisetried to make an irl comparison to religion and its doctrines but it certainly seems disrespectful if the aforementioned was the case

 

Apologies, no.
I will not deny my feathers are getting a little ruffled, but I hold no ill-will towards you - I actually quite enjoy debating. I am solely discussing IRP religions currently - as IRL religions should have absolutely no weight on RP aside from perhaps being the inspiration for an IRP religion.

My argument is primarily this:
You are roleplaying on a server in which players are given full opportunities to create their own magics, religions, and cultures. I do not understand why sexuality is a necessary topic to be included in your fantasy religion. Canonism as a whole is quite extensive and interesting, and to stand your ground and argue against a rule change over something as simple as relatively privately conducted romance rp is, to me, the equivalent of minimising this fantasy religion to nothing more than a homophobic agenda. Religions should be more than that. Why would your great and grand GOD care so much about sexuality?

In regards to Moderation action against it - I think this is something that would require a very clear line to be drawn, with distinct examples of what is and is not okay. It is okay to feel uncomfortable with a character of the same sex attempting to flirt etc. It is okay to get defensive or aggressive if they don't leave your character alone - them continuing such RP is creepy enough alone for mod action. It is not okay to persecute their character for their sexuality.

Warnings should be permitted first, before any ban even takes place. Only repeat offenders should receive bans.

[Borin 5259]

8 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said:

 

Apologies, no.
I will not deny my feathers are getting a little ruffled, but I hold no ill-will towards you - I actually quite enjoy debating. I am solely discussing IRP religions currently - as IRL religions should have absolutely no weight on RP aside from perhaps being the inspiration for an IRP religion.

My argument is primarily this:
You are roleplaying on a server in which players are given full opportunities to create their own magics, religions, and cultures. I do not understand why sexuality is a necessary topic to be included in your fantasy religion. Canonism as a whole is quite extensive and interesting, and to stand your ground and argue against a rule change over something as simple as relatively privately conducted romance rp is, to me, the equivalent of minimising this fantasy religion to nothing more but a homophobic agenda. Religions should be more than that. Why would your great and grand GOD care so much about sexuality?

We don't.

Read what me and james said and ignore Sashimi. The issue is MARRIAGE, and OUT OF MARRIAGE RELATIONS. There are NO ANTI-GAY DEATH SQUADS. It only became a thing recently because Nectorist made a post to debate scripture, then some NLs made a post, and people started going ape on the forums. It's literally not been a big issue IRP for ages. People do stuff privately and unless it's uncovered and it's a big thing bc they're married, it's literally just a slap on the wrist like a man and woman having a thing outside of marriage. lol. Good lordy this debate is stupid and leans on the fictional idea of Canonists lynching gays or something heinous like that.

The problem is morons saying stupid shit on the forums influenced by OOC views, and should keep their bloody mouths shut. It's the battle of the self-inserts. The fact of the matter is on the ground, on the actual server, it's basically a non-issue. Just no marriage, for the reasons james alluded to.

It's a non-issue. This shouldn't even be an OOC debate. It's an IRP one in the Church based on scripture.

[satinkira 5920]

13 minutes ago, argonian said:

As for those other forms of discrimination: legal rights are a bust, after all the whole debate is about the legal right to marriage in roleplay. Sanctity of life? If you mean "killing people is bad", then there's no grounds for discrimination among any of the main races or religions on the server, but if you want to talk about abo- let's not. As for religious freedom, religious discrimination is absolutely something people suffer from and are even murdered for IRL, so even that's a dodgy one - these may be fictional religions but someone who's a pagan IRL could feel persecuted if their pagan character is, and someone who's a Muslim IRL may feel that persecution of Al-Rashidun hits too close to home, Canonism and like any major branch of Christianity, etc.

 

So this stance of "prejudice which can occur IRL and bring up traumas must just be banned" is a very broad statement. Definitely should be true in cases, but as a general rule it bans almost everything.

 

I actually agree with you, with consideration, in that my original statement of IRL prejudices is too broad; I'd narrow it down purely to IRL-esque racism and homophobia in RP for what I'd want banned. The thing about religious conflict IRP is that it's somewhat unavoidable and unbannable because Darkspawn often act through religious motivation, the key difference being that their deity gives them powers and transformations.

 

As for high elves, well, I'd personally be in favour of Haelun'or being banned from using acid pits to burn people alive, but they don't really do that anymore and my understanding was that staff blocked them from doing it early after Arcas. Their 'purity' being based around skin colour and hair isn't really true from my experience - I've only seen that sort of thing from the Bronze Band (my character was once slipped a 'vanity' potion that turned them into the ideal form of perfect beauty. The toga elf pmd me saying blond hair, pale skin and blue eyes), which in my opinion is really really odd.

[_RoyalCrafter_ 3242]

The dwarves have a gay saint, make a dwarf.

[Laeonathan 3970]

1 minute ago, _RoyalCrafter_ said:

The dwarves have a gay saint, make a dwarf.

the founder of celianor was LESBIAN and openly had a wife is almost a DEITY.

 

Make a High Elf today!

[Borin 5259]

Just now, Laeonathan said:

the founder of celianor was LESBIAN and openly had a wife is almost a DEITY.

 

Make a High Elf today!

also an EVIL AZDRAZI SYMPATHISER and OOCLY CONTROVERSIAL and ELF (elves are bad)

[Laeonathan 3970]

1 minute ago, Borin said:

also an EVIL AZDRAZI SYMPATHISER and OOCLY CONTROVERSIAL and ELF (elves are bad)

 

That is Haelunorian propaganda, Twinny is a peaceful winemaking person! (she also tried to KILL azrdramoth)

[Amayonnaise 1535]

7 minutes ago, satinkira said:

As for high elves, well, I'd personally be in favour of Haelun'or being banned from using acid pits to burn people alive, but they don't really do that anymore. Their 'purity' being based around skin colour and hair isn't really true from my experience - I've only seen that sort of thing from the Bronze Band (my character was once slipped a 'vanity' potion that turned them into the ideal form of perfect beauty. The toga elf pmd me saying blond hair, pale skin and blue eyes), which in my opinion is really really odd.

 

Can confirm, High Elf 'purity' has never been about their physical appearance and traits. Their purity is specifically of the blood and mind. The only reason they make note of physical appearances is because it's the easiest way to determine if someone comes from an 'unpure bloodline', aka have non high elf blood in them. There have definitely been more zealous characters who care about their physical traits, but the belief itself is of the blood and mind.

 

11 minutes ago, Borin said:

We don't.

Read what me and james said and ignore Sashimi. The issue is MARRIAGE, and OUT OF MARRIAGE RELATIONS. There are NO ANTI-GAY DEATH SQUADS. It only became a thing recently because Nectorist made a post to debate scripture, then some NLs made a post, and people started going ape on the forums. It's literally not been a big issue IRP for ages. People do stuff privately and unless it's uncovered and it's a big thing bc they're married, it's literally just a slap on the wrist like a man and woman having a thing outside of marriage. lol. Good lordy this debate is stupid and leans on the fictional idea of Canonists lynching gays or something heinous like that.

The problem is morons saying stupid shit on the forums influenced by OOC views, and should keep their bloody mouths shut. It's the battle of the self-inserts. The fact of the matter is on the ground, on the actual server, it's basically a non-issue. Just no marriage, for the reasons james alluded to.

It's a non-issue. This shouldn't even be an OOC debate. It's an IRP one in the Church based on scripture.

 

My current opinion is that sexuality should just not belong in RP religions. It is quite possibly the easiest solution for all of this, and does permit RP conflict by having characters scour through the scrolls for mention of such an opposition, as you mentioned. However - I also hold concern with the outcry of the necessity of that form of RP at all. If players feel like their characters are being targeted or prosecuted due to their character's identity, then that shouldn't be allowed. I understand it may not be happening currently, but that does not mean it won't happen in the future.

 

2 minutes ago, Laeonathan said:

That is Haelunorian propaganda, Twinny is a peaceful winemaking person! (she also tried to KILL azrdramoth)

Didn't she get banned for toxicity or something

[Borin 5259]

8 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said:

My current opinion is that sexuality should just not belong in RP religions. It is quite possibly the easiest solution for all of this, and does permit RP conflict by having characters scour through the scrolls for mention of such an opposition, as you mentioned. However - I also hold concern with the outcry of the necessity of that form of RP at all. If players feel like they are being targeted or prosecuted due to their character's identity, then that shouldn't be allowed. I understand it may not be happening currently, but that does not mean it won't happen in the future.

 

 

I don't think sexuality is really a thing at all. It's just abt marriage. I don't think there's any special grr against gays in particular from the Church. Some individuals maybe, but not the Church as an institution. I oppose OOC interference in the Church, especially since there's really no issue. It's player driven, if there r IRP issues they should be confronted and debated and sorted IRP. If there r problem individuals taking things too far? Deal with the individual. There is no institutional issue though.

If people are being unreasonably targetted, maybe? I think IRL identity certainly, but IRP identity, eh. At that point it's RP, and the issue is the motivation for the targetting, not the targetting itself. And I think this is already bannable etc, the mods can alr deal with it. As ppl have already said, should be taken to mods. Doesn't need a honeypot post.

 

[argonian 12839]

13 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said:

Can confirm, High Elf 'purity' has never been about their physical appearance and traits. Their purity is specifically of the blood and mind. The only reason they make note of physical appearances is because it's the easiest way to determine if someone comes from an 'unpure bloodline', aka have non high elf blood in them. There have definitely been more zealous characters who care about their physical traits, but the belief itself is of the blood and mind.

This is literally any racism ever. Aryans weren't the master race because they had blonde hair and blue eyes, but such an appearance was seen to be an indicator of a pure Aryan ancestry.

 

"High Elves aren't an NS-LARP dude. We just coincidentally assess pure ancestry based on the exact same characteristics and spent years wearing SS skins."

 

At least you said "blood and mind" and not "blood and soil", although I'm not sure if implying darker skin correlates with a worse mind is any better.

[satinkira 5920]

3 minutes ago, argonian said:

"High Elves aren't a NS-LARP dude. We just coincidentally assess pure ancestry based on the exact same characteristics and spent years wearing SS skins."

 

I'd say it's massively unfair to talk abt SS skins because it implies that it's a recent thing, when in reality that level of shit hasnt happened for years. Canonists were crucifying gay ppl more recently than this, though they of course don't do anything of the sort nowdays

[argonian 12839]

1 minute ago, satinkira said:

I'd say it's massively unfair to talk abt SS skins because it implies that it's a recent thing, when in reality that level of shit hasnt happened for years. Canonists were crucifying gay ppl more recently than this, though they of course don't do anything of the sort nowdays

When then?