kipps 714 Share Posted March 1 the argument for banning prejudice because lotc is escapism is wrong because a lotc is (or should be) a narrative/story-telling medium, not a base escapist fantasy. If you'd actually be consequent in the escapism line of thinking it'd be perfectly logical to ban any differences that exist in real life like class and ethnic group, because the existence of these would lead to discrimination and thus prejudice. It'd be in fact imperative to ban these distinctions to protect all groups that could experience prejudice. I think @argonianalready touched on this but why shouldn't we ban these if this server is a means of escapism from rl prejudice? 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satinkira 5915 Author Share Posted March 1 9 minutes ago, kipps said: the argument for banning prejudice because lotc is escapism is wrong because a lotc is (or should be) a narrative/story-telling medium, not a base escapist fantasy. If you'd actually be consequent in the escapism line of thinking it'd be perfectly logical to ban any differences that exist in real life like class and ethnic group, because the existence of these would lead to discrimination and thus prejudice. It'd be in fact imperative to ban these distinctions to protect all groups that could experience prejudice. I think @argonianalready touched on this but why shouldn't we ban these if this server is a means of escapism from rl prejudice? I've already gone over this. LotC is a narrative medium, yes, but it's based in a fantastical setting. Removing class differences is foolish because it's an integral part of fantasy narratives; consider House Lannister, for example. No-one is arguing for this. Also, roleplaying a noble isn't going to offend anyone nor cause problems, unlike the topic in discussion. On the topic of racism roleplay, I do believe that human-on-human racism roleplay virtually doesn't happen and is handled quickly by moderation when it shows up (I spoke to an admin a few days ago who stated that individuals who discriminated against each other based on skin colour in humans tended to get handled within hours). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipps 714 Share Posted March 1 1 minute ago, satinkira said: Also, roleplaying a noble isn't going to offend anyone nor cause problems Why do you suppose so, it hurts my escapism when I'm reminded of my low birth irp. You may laugh at that but why is that not a legitimate grievance? Why is class a real life discrimnation that's integral and others not? 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorsand 1745 Share Posted March 1 A simple way to frame this is to ask the following: Is the server population mature and sensitive enough to craft a meaningful narrative around overcoming an extremely hot-point IRL subject? -- and, if so; do the individuals engaging in homophobic RP promote a good-faith OOC environment where mutual respect and communication occurs before, after, and during RP to ensure that a narrative is being crafted without marginalizing people? You may also simply ask: Does anyone who isn't heterosexual overtly desire to engage in that sort of RP? Some people might, as its a crucial aspect in a lot of fiction and is a story that deserves to be told -- but is MCRP the best place to do that when majority of the audience are individuals <18 who are still learning about the world and are more focused on chasing pixel-clout than anything else? The answer to these questions may surprise you! More at 11. Back to you, Tom. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narthok 9213 Share Posted March 1 10 minutes ago, The60th said: Fake news, I was just killing anyone in rozania there was no "targeting of gay people" savoyard "crusaders" went into rozania killed everyone, repeat 3x not some weird crusade against gay people that its being spun as. It might have been me on Father Paul 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipps 714 Share Posted March 1 5 minutes ago, Shorsand said: MCRP the best place to do that when majority of the audience are individuals <18 who are still learning about the world and are more focused on chasing pixel-clout than anything else? shouldn't we then ban any sexually/romantically charged rp on the server then because the minors ? (I'm for this btw) 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amayonnaise 1535 Share Posted March 1 1 hour ago, kipps said: the argument for banning prejudice because lotc is escapism is wrong because a lotc is (or should be) a narrative/story-telling medium, not a base escapist fantasy. This is a pretty valid take. Honestly, I've flipped on this topic so many times idk where I stand. @Borin's response to me on Page 9 also brought up a key point - if this sort of behaviour is occurring OOC'ly, or players are specifically targeting characters due to homophobic opinions etc, it's absolutely going to result in warnings/bans majority of the time. I think at the moment I'm moreso considering what sort of direction do we want to take this server in? It has already begun developing into a safer space by banning countless amounts of problematic players permanently, and we are growing more and more adapt at noticing those behavioural patterns and removing them proactively. Do we want to take it a step further, and turn LotC into a 'safe space'? Or, as @Shorsand said above, can we trust our playerbase to create good-faith RP in the context of homophobia / racism etc. Most races have been racist towards each other since the server began. Where do we draw the line - is racism between races okay, but between subraces not okay? Then where do humans fit into this, considering their cultures are based on IRL cultures? If we ban subrace racism, what happens to the High Elves who are built upon that prejudice? In my opinion, "We don't crusade against Gays" is not a very valid take. Just because it isn't occurring currently doesn't mean it won't in the future. How would these sorts of extremist groups even foster good-faith RP, when their very purpose is just ruining other players' fun with little reason beyond "I don't like that you're married to another guy/girl, which doesn't actually affect me in any way, but it bothers me to know that". I'm not expecting groups like these to form, but you can't 100% claim they won't. I am also now going to sleep 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphine 456 Share Posted March 1 13 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said: Just because it isn't occurring currently doesn't mean it won't in the future. I think you will find that making policy for things that have not happened is a lot harder to convince people of than for things that have happened. You can tell a community 'dont do this and dont do that', setting rules up so the staff show there is accountability, and that's normal. However, when gray area subjects come up that spark debate, and official policy is written and established to combat it, you will continuously be closing loopholes, creating definitions for what is or what isn't rule breaking, and it will never stop. On and on, more rules for specific things. Hell, you may even go back years later and amend the rule because it just didn't make sense in the long run. An extreme rabbit hole to explore, I know, but this is what many people fear; their RP being policed so heavily that they must walk on eggshells for everything, doubt everything, and question themselves to a point that RP is no longer enjoyable. This is easily seen IRL too, all over social media and so on. I believe this topic has been done to death at this point, so this is likely my last response to this thread lol 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xMuted 2461 Share Posted March 1 This whole thread is a massive 'what if' nothing burger that briefly turned into high elf nazi discussion?? This feels like alot of people getting angry at canonist rpers for something they don't even do. Shouting at them for a possibility they do stuff which they don't. I haven't seen anyone genuinally experiencing 'homophobia' rp ever 20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satinkira 5915 Author Share Posted March 1 1 hour ago, kipps said: Why do you suppose so, it hurts my escapism when I'm reminded of my low birth irp. You may laugh at that but why is that not a legitimate grievance? Why is class a real life discrimnation that's integral and others not? I have yet to read any kind of fantastical story that doesn't reference the difference between Kings and peasants; I have read a great many that don't bear reference to homophobia 1 hour ago, The60th said: Fake news, I was just killing anyone in rozania there was no "targeting of gay people" savoyard "crusaders" went into rozania killed everyone, repeat 3x not some weird crusade against gay people that its being spun as. I have very strong memories of it, as narthok said it may have been him 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeteorDragon 2822 Share Posted March 1 While this is partly about canonists, it isn't just about them. It's about the whole server. Homophobia rp brings nothing good to the server. For those saying that canonism doesn't have anti-gay stuff, I bring you three things. One, then why are you still so against banning something that is inherently bad and upsets people oocly? Two, saying "marriage should only be between a man and a woman" is homophobic, there are some folk in Petra who had to deal with not being able to be properly married because of stupid sh*t like this. Three, while I don't play a canonists, mainly because I don't really care about religious rp, I heard from a different source that being gay isn't even banned by canonism, people just want it to be banned, so they rp it being banned. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipps 714 Share Posted March 1 fantasy settings are far more compelling when the tenets of interaction are firmly grounded in realism. you must accept that even fictional characters can be not-nice and that you threaten the credibility of the server's setting if you mandate acceptance of something people want to otherwise not accept. People are not nice sometimes and we are trying to roleplay people, with all their warts and boils. The setting becomes far smaller if you sterilise independent opinion for the sake of people disliking some thoughts and not others. 23 minutes ago, MeteorDragon said: I heard from a different source that being gay isn't even banned by canonism, people just want it to be banned, so they rp it being banned. Being homosexual or having homosexual feelings is not banned in canonism, only homosexual marriage (currently). 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satinkira 5915 Author Share Posted March 1 I am so tired 162 replies is not what I had in mind. I'm going to stop replying to this thread because my brain is so fucked rn with this convo, I hope it was a good discussion for some people at least and presented some new ideas. It did for me (I have also heard that some folks are using this thread as a justification for calling all canonists homophobic and to attack religious people. Please don't, that's obviously stupid and intolerant and actually harms the cause you purport. Let's be civil and nice please) 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narthok 9213 Share Posted March 1 34 minutes ago, MeteorDragon said: Two, saying "marriage should only be between a man and a woman" is homophobic Sincere religious belief bros.... 16 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
argonian 12839 Share Posted March 1 3 hours ago, MeteorDragon said: One, then why are you still so against banning something that is inherently bad and upsets people oocly? I think what I'm trying to do is encourage caution over any rule changes with extremely broad consequences on what's RP-able. Like earlier in this thead I was accused of hyperbole and the slippery-slope fallacy for the "gay genderfluid half-orc High Pontiff" line, but that would have to be allowed with this rule change (except maybe the half-orc part, since orcs aren't real, but you can be the one to explain why "miscegenation is bad actually" when someone makes a thread about how that upsets them irl). Because again, as much as people try to dance back and forth here, the argument is not about allowing gay characters to exist, but about banning discrimination against them, by nations, the Church, etc. - with the reasoning that this is a form of discrimination which exists IRL and is thereby upsetting, and so naturally to be in any way consistent or fair you would have to extend such bans to other forms of discrimination deemed unkosher in the real world. Obvious ones are sexuality, gender identity, disability, medical history, but you could potentially even extend it to religious or philosophical beliefs. So then the outcome of that is total social and legal equality for all protected classes within RP, whether your group is a nation or a non-nation (wouldn't affect the Church otherwise, defeating the point). But that non-nation part especially could make it very very silly quite fast. If you were RP'ing an antagonist, you'd have to do it like that Onion sketch of "man plots to assassinate President Obama, but not because he's black or anything". You guys can go do what you want but my thoughts on it based on the above and other things I've already addressed are: (1) it's a very dodgy principle and you'd have to be careful when rule-crafting if this is to go ahead, (2) I find it hypocritical how "it's a medieval setting!" is used as a beating stick against things like cannons or guns but is discarded entirely in discussions like these, and (3) I suspect a large portion of people in favour of this don't actually want to ban IRL discrimination in RP (see: High Elves), but simply have a general distaste for human RP, culture, and lore, and would happenly see non-IRL forms of discrimination like anti-magery be forcibly eliminated too. 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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