Zakajaervi 150 Share Posted March 18 Greetings LOTC. What is the weight of a ban? This is a question I will broaden for the purpose of some observation of what I would say is a problem. What makes a ban against one player weigh more than the other? What decides that one broken rule bans you longer than breaking the other rules, or the others who break the same rule? There are the obvious reasons: What rule was broken, previous bans/warnings, severity of the rulebreak, consequence of the rulebreak and effect on the server and players. There are players amongst our servers who can count on their fingers how many times they have been banned / temp banned for several reasons and then there are the players who haven't been banned at all. And every one in a while, a player may be permanently banned for something they said, did or even joked about several years ago. Maybe no one even noticed that a rule was broken, nobody cared and nobody was offended over the situation, but after years for whatever reason they get a ban for something they may not even remember doing. After years of growth, most people can agree that they have improved as a person. I myself have said some serious things which I am not proud of, and so can most of us. That is not my opinion, that’s fact. Does this make us worthy of a permanent ban? Despite how well you have treated your fellow server members, the respect you’ve shown the staff, the roleplay and the server, you slipped joking about something three years ago and all of a sudden you are not welcome in this community. I will not name any names, but I know a few players who this happened to. Some of you reading this may have friends that do, or it may even have happened to you. While every one of us knows that there are several players who say discriminatory and unjust remarks and flat insults toward other server members, and get left off with a tempban because it was a “heated moment” or whatever other reason. Nonetheless, in my eyes and the eyes of many it does not seem fair in the slightest that a joke in a discord server where everybody was obviously having a laugh and no joke dark humored joke was directed to one specific player can remove someone from the community for good. No, I am not saying that stupid jokes about wrong and discriminatory things should go unpunished and unhandled. There may be instances where the severity is indeed worthy of a permanent ban. A player who did say something years ago should know and be reminded that they did something wrong and that it is unacceptable. But a permanent ban, for a version of a player that in most cases were obviously younger and immature? Because of a joke? Yes, There are bans which are very obviously out of discussion. There can be controversy on what actually fits in this category, but we all have some moral idea of what that could be. (Grooming, pedophilia, sexual harassment, rape encouragement etc.) So excluding the unforgivable, I believe there are moments where the rule breaker can grow, and can get a shot at redemption. Not all severe cases, but some. Most cases, it is also very obvious if there was an intent to discriminate or simply to joke. I suggest some sort of solution to this problem. What is a more fair way of handling this? I propose some sort of punishment timer. From when the rule was broken (depending on what rule was broken), the severity of the punishment varies on how long ago the rule was broken + if they have repeated it / shown no signs of growth in behavior and respect for the rules. This is initially just a thought, and there could be hundreds of ways to solve this problem, maybe it is only a problem in my eyes. So I ask you this, LOTC’s, players and staff, whether you agree or don’t, What do you think? - Zakajaervi “You should take what I say with a pinch of salt” - ArrDee 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netphreak 449 Share Posted March 20 In short, you are able to view the template that moderators use to dispense various actions by simply scrolling up to the top of the forums page and clicking on the tab that says "Rules", scroll down a little bit and you'll see the table. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakajaervi 150 Author Share Posted March 20 5 hours ago, Netphreak said: In short, you are able to view the template that moderators use to dispense various actions by simply scrolling up to the top of the forums page and clicking on the tab that says "Rules", scroll down a little bit and you'll see the table. I'd say following / not following the table is gonna cause some problems. It's a good table, but the problem remains. Someone makes a joke three years ago and gets banned now, for example. Or somebody slips and makes a joke in general, and then staff are supposed to stick to the table very strictly? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smmer 1145 Share Posted March 20 Bans are dumb, i have no faith in the current moderation system. As an ex mod of 2 months I've found the system to be the most exploitable thing for bad faith actors. <3 Without breaking the moderiational nda I signed, I will say that the way our punishment system is written is actually so pathetically funny it's unreal. If a gm hates you for any reason, they can give you a longer ban than whats written on the infraction hub without it being questioned. That's not fair <3 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satinkira 5905 Share Posted March 20 14 minutes ago, Smmer said: Bans are dumb, i have no faith in the current moderation system. As an ex mod of 2 months I've found the system to be the most exploitable thing for bad faith actors. <3 Without breaking the moderiational nda I signed, I will say that the way our punishment system is written is actually so pathetically funny it's unreal. If a gm hates you for any reason, they can give you a longer ban than whats written on the infraction hub without it being questioned. That's not fair <3 nothing will change if no-one speaks out about the specific flaws and methods of repair. tell us what occurs in the basement of tythus LTD moderation offices co. limited smmer on the topic of the post, whether or not timers to bans should be added depends heavily on whether one trusts moderation to not give short ban times to their friends (they've changed as a person, trust me bros). such a system is easily abusable - and yes, so is the current one, but would we rather have an abused system where folks get banned for a few months longer than they should (and such doesn't always happen) or a system where folks can drastically reduce ban lengths for their friends who really shouldn't be unbanned so promptly? idk the answer to that but that's really what this boils down to 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smmer 1145 Share Posted March 20 7 minutes ago, satinkira said: nothing will change if no-one speaks out about the specific flaws and methods of repair. tell us what occurs in the basement of tythus LTD moderation offices co. limited smmer on the topic of the post, whether or not timers to bans should be added depends heavily on whether one trusts moderation to not give short ban times to their friends (they've changed as a person, trust me bros). such a system is easily abusable - and yes, so is the current one, but would we rather have an abused system where folks get banned for a few months longer than they should (and such doesn't always happen) or a system where folks can drastically reduce ban lengths for their friends who really shouldn't be unbanned so promptly? idk the answer to that but that's really what this boils down to Its as easy as reading what i wrote you muppet, If a gm hates you for any reason, they can give you a longer ban than what's written on the infraction hub without it being questioned. When there is a system where those giving punishment are permitted the freedom to choose the duration of your punishment within a set of parameters, sometimes with room to go over what's actually written that leaves room for abuse of power. Bans should be based off of circumstances, context, duration (how long has this issue been happening) and reviewed and given a fair assessment. We give bans to individuals who are put onto blast in private reports but then we leave those banned in the dark and without asking their side? thats unfair. I have no faith that without a proper internal intervention from higherups and an overhaul of the way moderation is handled now that it will further brew discontent and create an even worse divide between players, a divide I tried hard to connect because I was extremely dissatisfied with my friends being banned and kept in the dark. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satinkira 5905 Share Posted March 20 1 minute ago, Smmer said: Its as easy as reading what i wrote you muppet, sorry 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow1770 248 Share Posted March 20 I’ve known and been friends with two players who’ve received perm bans over something they did literal years ago. Neither was aware they were being investigated, nor asked their side of anything that happened. In fact one of them was actually a victim of abuse by the person we suspect reported them. Were both blind sided by this? A little. One of them hadn’t even been online for months because he was deployed serving his country and we had to go tell him they were banning him, and what they were banning him because of. It was overall a really shitty situation. It hit our community pretty hard as both the people who were banned are founding members of it. Perm bans, for things that happened years ago. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werew0lf 12022 Share Posted March 20 3 minutes ago, Snow1770 said: I’ve known and been friends with two players who’ve received perm bans over something they did literal years ago. Neither was aware they were being investigated, nor asked their side of anything that happened. In fact one of them was actually a victim of abuse by the person we suspect reported them. Were both blind sided by this? A little. One of them hadn’t even been online for months because he was deployed serving his country and we had to go tell him they were banning him, and what they were banning him because of. It was overall a really shitty situation. It hit our community pretty hard as both the people who were banned are founding members of it. Perm bans, for things that happened years ago. What’s the context though. If they did something years ago that they went unpunished for, and it was nasty enough to get them permabanned, I don’t think the timeframe should matter. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakajaervi 150 Author Share Posted March 20 46 minutes ago, Werew0lf said: What’s the context though. If they did something years ago that they went unpunished for, and it was nasty enough to get them permabanned, I don’t think the timeframe should matter. That would depend heavily on what rule was broken. Despite that it was 3, 5, or even many more years ago you believe a dumb joke made all that time ago should get somebody banned permanently? Imagine all the dumb shit said in voice chats of warclaim team chats, if all of it was recorded, divided and reported seperately. Yes, the jokes can be pretty dumb but this is where the problem is. What crosses the line? Why can one person make a serious joke and be let off, and others get banned years after for something they pretty much forgot? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfate786 1639 Share Posted March 20 1 hour ago, Werew0lf said: What’s the context though. If they did something years ago that they went unpunished for, and it was nasty enough to get them permabanned, I don’t think the timeframe should matter. I don't think someone should be perma banned from a minecraft server for having angrily said a racial expletive some years ago. I think it's actually childish and represents a lack of thick skin as well as a massive sense of entitlement. People can and do have the capacity to change their views and opinions and them saying a certain word doesn't mean they hold that view or opinion. I think a lot of people in this community like to jump on the high horse and the reasons why are often quite sickening. How many times have moderators, admins and "pillars of the community" taken the high horse only to be outed as child predators, racists, toxic, ERP'ers, etc? I think the community should be VERY cautious around those who take any form of moral highground, especially when rules are involved. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netphreak 449 Share Posted March 20 4 hours ago, Zakajaervi said: I'd say following / not following the table is gonna cause some problems. It's a good table, but the problem remains. Someone makes a joke three years ago and gets banned now, for example. Or somebody slips and makes a joke in general, and then staff are supposed to stick to the table very strictly? I would like to assume that the staff have discretion when it comes to dishing out short or long term bans. Then again, we all know what happens when we assume. With that being said, in my opinion; there should be a set statute of limitations. Getting banned today for something that was posted or said three years ago is pretty shady on the part of the Moderation.. Culture shifts, people view things as offensive as the culture shifts. Something I post today could be viewed as highly offensive in two years; would I deserve a ban for that? I understand that LOTC is able to do what they can with what they have in terms of staff volunteering; we are not the greatest pool of candidates as this community is toxic in almost every form and corner of the platform. So then, you're left with choosing the lesser of the two evils; whom as always are human and are subject to make mistakes and bad judgement calls. No Moderator is a perfect Moderator, it's impossible. Policy amendments and reforms do help, especially if they're enforced from the top because things roll downhill. Consistency has been an ongoing problem with many of the staff teams, I feel though we're headed in the right direction after so very long, though.. With my observations and correct me if I'm wrong; nothing seems to get done without a mass public outcry or outing of people on a public report. That is an issue as well, but carry on! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SapphirePool 1098 Share Posted March 20 There is nuance to every incident. However, playing on LOTC is not a right, a necessity. It is a privilege and a luxury. If you do something unsavory, and because of it you get permanently banned, exactly how awful is that? It is not taking your food, shelter, means of survival. It is disallowing the use of this attempted safe space we all know and love called LOTC. Do we give people the benefit of the doubt whilst opening up this safe space for the potential of re-offense? If they do reoffend, it will only look bad on those who chose to give the second chance. lotc is not some need, necessity, giver of meaning. It is a roleplay minecraft server. that’s my opinion at least 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlanth 3539 Share Posted March 20 If I had to say, something like 50% of the bans I've seen on LOTC (Excluding TOS bans) are undeserved and usually done because X staff member doesn't like Y player base. That said, if you want to look at the situation realistically, bans aren't the problem. The problem is inconsistent rules/verdicts and poor staff management. There's only two kinds of punishments minecraft servers can really hand out, anyway. Mutes (Which really isn't possible on lotc since it's a glorified chat room anyways) and restricting one's ability to play the server. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoungSimba 83 Share Posted March 20 (edited) 10 hours ago, Werew0lf said: What’s the context though. If they did something years ago that they went unpunished for, and it was nasty enough to get them permabanned, I don’t think the timeframe should matter. Outside of literal crimes, there is next to nothing that must be witch hunted literal years later. People take their online lives way too seriously. If the outside world could see how 85% of this community reacts to slight issues and words instead of just letting it go, they would be labeled weirdos. Edited March 20 by YoungSimba 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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