OOC, Roleplay, and You(r view)

[MailC3p 2403]

if I could +1 this a million times I would, but alas I can only once. I 100% agree with everything listed here, both as an NL and as someone who has tried to reach out to NL’s after my time was up, it’s been annoying to say the least as even the most acitve of NL’s would rather I DM them on discord then anything else. I am not going to name names however when I was DM’d on discord asking to set up a deal with an influential player I said of course, but asked if they could bird me first irply and somehow that cut off the entire deal (I don’t know if they either just forgot or would rather talk to someone who’d respond to Discord). To say it’s annoying is to be understating it, it is inconvenient at best. I remember having a conversation with one of my friends in my DM’s, I was upset about something political on lotc and how much discordism was used and how I was failing because I tried to keep Discord use to a minimum and they responded “you know your way isn’t how you play the game” and it was perhaps the single most truthful thing i’ve heard. I miss the days of Narthok Rex when he’d suddenly show up at my gates, not even a scheduled meeting irply as he comes to do Diplomacy, that was the good days.

[DahStalker 3692]

anytime i do politicking rp or im in government, theres ooc. when i do peaceful donkey-farmer rp im at peace in rp bliss. it comes down to how politics on lotc function, and how it's so heavily laced w/ ooc that ooc feelings leak into it.

[indiana105 5126]

every NL that isn’t head of like a 4 man cuddle nation is OOC scheming despite what they say on this post. it’s (a large) part of the scheme to say the other guy is scheming. won’t change because they’re typically virgins trying to legacy build on Minecraft 

 

will be interesting if staff crack down on “metaplay”. squak has good intentions but many are wrapped up in NL friend circles etc

 

 

[Telanir 6975]

5 hours ago, ShinyB said:

This definition of Metaplay and the conversations people are having surrounding it seem to only focus on the conflict aspect of Metaplay, or when there are two groups working against each other to reach separate OOC goals, most often seen during wars. I have to ask though, is there going to be a separate definition or guidelines for cooperative Metaplay or is cooperative Metaplay between people or groups of people going to be treated the same as bad faith Metaplay?

 

For example, if an NL works OOCly with a group of darkspawn to create an event for their players, is that going to be treated with the same animosity? If I, as head of an unimportant family, going to be smacked with the book because I organize family meetings over discord? Am I going to get in trouble for roleplaying a child and knowing who my family members are, even if we have never roleplayed at that point? Am I going to get in trouble for reminding someone over discord that their house is going to be evicted?

While some people may argue that cooperation between two nations diplomatically would count as bad faith Metaplay, all I ask is there be a limit stated or a line drawn between what is considered cooperation and bad faith. As it is right now, it is way too broad, especially if harsh punishments are to come for this type of behavior.

 

It is my opinion that an exemption to these guidelines (and potentially future rules) should be made for instances of cooperative Metaplay, or at the very least separate definitions (or a more clear definition of Metaplay) should be made in order to limit interpersonal conflict. In my experience, interpersonal conflict between people or groups tends to arise due to different understandings of the same rules. Clarifying these things I feel like would go a long way in resolving interpersonal conflict before it even starts, as bad actors can take advantage of vague rules.

 

Hey Shiny, the facilitating or gathering of roleplay is not only wonderful for you, but for all of us. We allow that explicitly in the new ruleset.

 

But, whether metaplay is cooperative or antagonistic—it endorses metaplay. It plants the seed for more metaplay. And this conduct is not only rarely done in goodwill, the spirit of roleplay, or responsible cooperation—it is genuinely hard to do so in a positive way. It is just not genuine roleplay. It's faked, and any goodwill feels similarly empty. (for example, take how you feel if a scripted event does not allow you to be creative in your roleplay, but strong arms a certain outcome)

 

I would say reminding someone about an eviction notice (the cd's are inherently an OOC thing by law of our rules) does not relate to roleplay as it's mainly a mechanical requirement. What happens before a character is spawned into the world is also an OOC consideration—like how we write our applications (backstories) prior to entering the world of RP.

 

It is clear to me these examples are in good-faith, you are safe. :)

[Toffee 2843]

Wholeheartedly support these new rules!

 

A problem I was running into when trying to have conversations with people about OOC driven narratives is that there wasn't a term for it. I would say "OOC plotting" and get strawmanned with the response that logistics need to be planned, timezones exist, and you need to check if people are comfortable with XYZ thing happening. I'm glad that "metaplay" is now the term used, because there is so clearly a difference between telling people what OOC time the event is and meticulously planning out a detailed dramatic storyline then bullying people into using their characters as your own personal puppets in a play you've already scripted the ending for.

 

I'm hoping that these rules will be strictly enforced going forwards not only to break the mindset of doing metaplay in the first place, but also the idea that "everyone else is doing everything in Discord, I'm at a disadvantage if I don't do it too."

[satin 7600]

Btw no-one disagrees that metaplay has been an issue for years, the objection to it now grows because instead of leading to exciting schemes and wars it’s being wielded as a weapon of stagnation. the real issue with modern NLs compared to the last ones isn’t that they do metaplay, it’s that they’re too afraid of losing, and lack ambition.

[LithiumSedai 5750]

In the summer of 2020, I had been an NL dealing with another nation wholeheartedly embracing a flimsy, metagame-enhanced narrative in an attempt to justify a war against my own nation. I posted a report, and although a (very hilarious and oft-quoted, I admit) recording soon emerged of the rival NL ranting for seven minutes about his OOC reasons to instigate this war, the verdict I received publicly was that "RP consequences are RP consequences". In private, however, one of the moderation managers at the time contacted me and said "You were in the right and everybody knows that, but we just can't publicly admonish the community acting against you, they have too much influence. Just try to use the pending war rules rewrite to avoid the conflict if you don't want to fight." I did not do this - the war eventually played out in July and August, and by a stroke of luck my side secured a favorable peace agreement despite its initial weakness. Had I wanted to, though, the only other way out would have been acting in an underhanded OOC manner myself, one that would have possibly resulted in myself being penalized.

 

Four years later, very little has changed. I don't recall a single serious metaplay report (Ferrymen early warning radar team vs Aaunite freecammers need not apply) that has been resolved in favor of the reporting party. You'll forgive me, @squakhawk, that I have very little hope that your initiative will succeed, or that it'll be taken seriously by your team to begin with; I know for a fact that when certain community leaders brought up a certain problem group consistently engaging in metaplay to the detriment of nearly every extant nation, and that since 2020 almost every single war has featured the same handful of instigators and has been conducted for the same OOC reasons, you told them almost the same thing that I had been told in 2020: "You are correct, but we just can't act - they have too much clout."

I have no punchline. Here's a screenshot about the state of war in 2024:

 

Spoiler

 

[Urban 396]

1 hour ago, LithiumSedai said:

In the summer of 2020, I had been an NL dealing with another nation wholeheartedly embracing a flimsy, metagame-enhanced narrative in an attempt to justify a war against my own nation. I posted a report, and although a (very hilarious and oft-quoted, I admit) recording soon emerged of the rival NL ranting for seven minutes about his OOC reasons to instigate this war, the verdict I received publicly was that "RP consequences are RP consequences". In private, however, one of the moderation managers at the time contacted me and said "You were in the right and everybody knows that, but we just can't publicly admonish the community acting against you, they have too much influence. Just try to use the pending war rules rewrite to avoid the conflict if you don't want to fight." I did not do this - the war eventually played out in July and August, and by a stroke of luck my side secured a favorable peace agreement despite its initial weakness. Had I wanted to, though, the only other way out would have been acting in an underhanded OOC manner myself, one that would have possibly resulted in myself being penalized.

 

Four years later, very little has changed. I don't recall a single serious metaplay report (Ferrymen early warning radar team vs Aaunite freecammers need not apply) that has been resolved in favor of the reporting party. You'll forgive me, @squakhawk, that I have very little hope that your initiative will succeed, or that it'll be taken seriously by your team to begin with; I know for a fact that when certain community leaders brought up a certain problem group consistently engaging in metaplay to the detriment of nearly every extant nation, and that since 2020 almost every single war has featured the same handful of instigators and has been conducted for the same OOC reasons, you told them almost the same thing that I had been told in 2020: "You are correct, but we just can't act - they have too much clout."

I have no punchline. Here's a screenshot about the state of war in 2024:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

You were extremely toxic towards and oocly screamed at the pontiff for hours in the church discord, calling him "r*tarded" and other such things, when he wouldn't immediately protect aaun after war was declared on it for many valid rp reasons. You are a part of the problem of metagaming cliques in this server and are not the victim of it. Show some self-awareness next time before you attempt to throw a pity party for yourself

Edited August 25, 2024 by Urban

[LithiumSedai 5750]

11 minutes ago, Urban said:

You were extremely toxic towards and oocly screamed at the pontiff for hours in the church discord, calling him "r*tarded" and other such things, when he wouldn't immediately protect aaun after war was declared on it for many valid rp reasons. You are a part of the problem of metagaming cliques in this server and are not the victim of it. Show some self-awareness next time before you attempt to throw a pity party for yourself

The key difference between me and your OOC-riddled gremlin clique that you fail to mention is that my outburst against your friend engaging in underhanded meta occurred entirely in a private chat and was not acted upon in any way in-game on my side, as my character did not share the views I had espoused - the response I got was an RP excommunication laden with OOC reasoning and references to things I said in that chat, not my character in-game (though a pretend-justification was nonetheless fabricated). It's laughable that you would accuse anyone of lacking self-awareness when everything your side and people adjacent to it in this conflict, dating back to the Veletz war and not the hundred Ravenmirian OOCly-coordinated declarations of war, has been for the benefit of metaplay agendas and OOC grudges. Don't @ me again.

 

[lemonke 6014]

Minecraft roleplay

[Urban 396]

9 minutes ago, LithiumSedai said:

The key difference between me and your OOC-riddled gremlin clique that you fail to mention is that my outburst against your friend engaging in underhanded meta occurred entirely in a private chat and was not acted upon in any way in-game on my side, as my character did not share the views I had espoused - the response I got was an RP excommunication laden with OOC reasoning and references to things I said in that chat, not my character in-game (though a pretend-justification was nonetheless fabricated). It's laughable that you would accuse anyone of lacking self-awareness when everything your side and people adjacent to it in this conflict, dating back to the Veletz war and not the hundred Ravenmirian OOCly-coordinated declarations of war, has been for the benefit of metaplay agendas and OOC grudges. Don't @ me again.

 

Spoiler

 

[_RoyalCrafter_ 5285]

I agree everything that @Jihnynyhas said.

1) If you want people to not engage in metaplay, you need to actually discourage it. Many people in this thread have posted screenshots of metaplay. There have been many reports over last two years, public and private about nation leadership engaging in such, with only the most blatant and obvious being punished.

 

People are unsatisfied with moderation of metaplay, when they go to mods its a coinflip if the 'meta'er' will be punished for the actions, or if the reporter will actually be retaliated against because the bad actor is a 'community leader.' I will refer to this point again further down the line as well.

No amount of rule reform will work if rules are not enforced. I would argue rule reform is not even necessary if staff just equally enforced the rules, and were transparent about it. No bullshit about hiding verdicts (Unless its a sensitive matter) or 'a report in this case needs to be private'

2) People need to stop looking at the past with nostalgia goggles. 'muh pre discord rp era' stfu. You were all in skype groupchats talking and plotting. No need to act holier than though because your ooc tools had a different interface.

 

3) I agree that all actions should ideally be done irp. Such as having a steward escort you through the city to show you houses and introduce you to people. Its what i did and am doing currently. But let's not act like the particular example cited is some holy grail of roleplay. People in the same timezone can't even roleplay at the same time together, let alone a roleplayer in alaska trying to meet a steward from the philippines to see a 10 mina shack.

 

Discord is a tool for community organisation, and a tool is not good or bad. It is how its used that matters. I'd argue its more beneficial than it is bad. People who say 'discord bad' are just complaining about metaplay which discord is not the cause of, but a tool of.
 

4) Proper rules for vassals and rules against ooc-absolutism are fantastic. I am shocked people are not bringing this up more, have people forgotten how Aaun tried to evict Petra? This is something that is definately needed and I look forward to seeing this proposal.

 

5) The post mentioned something with regards to realm creation and realm upkeep. Realm upkeep was not an issue on almaris, and somehow the server did not collapse. All realm upkeep has done is encourage NLs to focus on ooc grinding and worry about making mina. I absolutely detest how much time and thought i had to put into gathering mina and materials just to keep my nation afloat when I could have been rping. and this system has caused many players to quit, such as m4nana (idr the ign), the guy who wrote the BEST newspaper on lotc, the Kaktuz Weekli.

However, I believe restrictions to realm creation should not be overbearing. Yes you need to meet some standards like player amount, i think 15 players is a good amount. However, keep in mind the points from point 1. If players feel they have been metaplay'd in their community and want to leave and start their own they should be able to. Pretty much every nation has horror stories of meta, so they are not exactly appealing. and I personally was tired of the rat race, grinding for a year with activities that held no meaning to my character to show that we 'deserve' to be promoted. Why would I, or anyone want a repeat of that in another nation.

Though, with stronger vassal protections this should be less of an issue going forward.

One thing I will bring up as well, the same nostalgic players who cry about nation bloat are the same who view the 'old days' as superior.  And from my observations you couldn't walk more than 5 metres on an old map before finding some settlement or town. Doesn't seem to have been an issue then, why now? Or maybe it was and the old complaint threads have been archived. (Regardless, many nations wouldn't be a "problem" if the server could keep a population of higher than 200 people)

6) The wars this map were/are total ooc bs bullshit, I had fun fighting in them, but the reasoning for them was ooc.

My conclusion:

Out of everything i mentioned, point number 1 is the most important. you will not fix anything if staff dont enforce the rules. The server would be much better if the witnessed rule violations of the last few years were actually addressed.

Enforce rules, stop whining about nostalgia, remove mechanical grind, let people make communities, fix the meta behind wars.

All doable imo.

[satin 7600]

3 hours ago, LithiumSedai said:

I know for a fact that when certain community leaders brought up a certain problem group consistently engaging in metaplay to the detriment of nearly every extant nation, and that since 2020 almost every single war has featured the same handful of instigators and has been conducted for the same OOC reasons, you told them almost the same thing that I had been told in 2020: "You are correct, but we just can't act - they have too much clout."

ok give names/logs/proof on this thread then and force admins to act. no time like the present 

[xDK 1205]

1. Clear Definition and Communication
The rules regarding metaplay, OOC plotting, and other discouraged actions should be clearly defined with examples of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. This clarity is going to automatically make it easier to enforce the rules and teach players what is expected from them. Share with the community what these changes are for, as often as possible. Use the forums, in-game announcements, and Discord to reinforce the importance of preserving RP integrity and how that is being worked toward.
 

2. Reinforcement Through Enforcement
Consistent enforcement of the rules. The rules should be applied to all players equally and without bias or fear of harassment. This includes metaplay and other OOC-driven choices, and any other behavior that breaks RP. I agree with the idea that moderators need to publicize the major rulings (preserving privacy) to show the community that the rules are not just recommendations. Provide moderators with the tools and power to step into situations where OOC behavior impacts RP negatively. For example, grant them the ability to monitor OOC communications directly impacting in-game events. I suggest removing nation discord links from the main discord and begin centralizing discord communication on the main LotC discord server, to also centralize the moderation of communication.
 

3. Incentivize Roleplay
Establish systems that reward both players and communities for participating in quality RP. This may be in the form of in-game titles or resources available only through RP-driven means. The story team is already doing this to some degree, the main issue is that RP items in an OOC culture means little, so perhaps also have focus on OOC awards like titles etc. in exchange for participating in good RP. Encourage great roleplay by highlighting examples of these through official channels. Do community spotlights, RP event summaries, and special mentions in server-wide announcements for players engaging in good RP.

4. Cultural Shift Through Leadership
Set good examples by encouraging leaders of nations and other high profile players by rewarding them for RP being upstream from their actions, urging their nations/communities to not metaplay. Ascend and reward leaders on a regular basis who excel at creating an immersive environment in RP. This can be done by lessening the burden of OOC things like tile upkeep or taxes, furthering the circle of engaging RP.

5. Systemic Changes to Support RP
Tweaking of the game mechanics that currently reward OOC behavior. For instance, review systems including tile upkeep, war participation, or resource management to ensure that they promote RP rather than grinding or OOC scheming (or make these things RP engaging). Get rid of the OOC burden of administrative tasks from the nation leaders by automating or making them less taxing (I admit that I don't know the specific solution to this). This allows leaders more opportunities to engage in in-character governance and less in OOC management.

Finally, be open to further change, if necessary. Cultural and systemic change is a continuous process, and thus staying responsive toward community will become necessary.

[Proddy 2415]

3 hours ago, LithiumSedai said:

In the summer of 2020, I had been an NL dealing with another nation wholeheartedly embracing a flimsy, metagame-enhanced narrative in an attempt to justify a war against my own nation. I posted a report, and although a (very hilarious and oft-quoted, I admit) recording soon emerged of the rival NL ranting for seven minutes about his OOC reasons to instigate this war, the verdict I received publicly was that "RP consequences are RP consequences". In private, however, one of the moderation managers at the time contacted me and said "You were in the right and everybody knows that, but we just can't publicly admonish the community acting against you, they have too much influence. Just try to use the pending war rules rewrite to avoid the conflict if you don't want to fight." I did not do this - the war eventually played out in July and August, and by a stroke of luck my side secured a favorable peace agreement despite its initial weakness. Had I wanted to, though, the only other way out would have been acting in an underhanded OOC manner myself, one that would have possibly resulted in myself being penalized.

 

Four years later, very little has changed. I don't recall a single serious metaplay report (Ferrymen early warning radar team vs Aaunite freecammers need not apply) that has been resolved in favor of the reporting party. You'll forgive me, @squakhawk, that I have very little hope that your initiative will succeed, or that it'll be taken seriously by your team to begin with; I know for a fact that when certain community leaders brought up a certain problem group consistently engaging in metaplay to the detriment of nearly every extant nation, and that since 2020 almost every single war has featured the same handful of instigators and has been conducted for the same OOC reasons, you told them almost the same thing that I had been told in 2020: "You are correct, but we just can't act - they have too much clout."

I have no punchline. Here's a screenshot about the state of war in 2024:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I like you Lithium, and I hold no eternal grudge against you and you know this, but to address the first half of your post as the player of the persona which was one of the primary reasons said war happened in the first place - I think you're providing a half-sided story of what really happened in a way that feels direly disingenuous.

 

The fact of the matter is that the staff verdict of RP actions having RP consequences wasn't really wrong. The war was an RP consequence of your character deciding to murder my character, the Emperor's nephew, on a visit to your characters city. Remember that you were the one who initiated the CRP to begin with. I don't bemoan you for making a choice in roleplay to do so, and I honoured that RP by PKing, but to see you say the war was completely unjustified and everyone involved in it was just out to get you on an OOC level just feels like a flat out lie.

 

There were things that I did wrong in the aftermath and I regret - the frill assassination plot is still something I will make fun of myself for looking back in retrospect as a sign of how unhealthily obssessed with the minecraft game I was back then (if you know then you know) and whilst I'd stand by that the letter left behind in my character's room about visiting Sutica is something he would've done, if the same thing happened now I would have probably left that out out of respect for the spirit of roleplay. But to say that the war itself was wholly unjustified and just motivated by OOC alone isn't entirely true.

 

Was the RP investigation of the murder itself by the Orenian side half-arsed and not backed by enough thorough roleplay? That part I couldn't tell you honestly as I wasn't involved. And yeah the clip of alty being a malding andy in VC is funny and all, but I think if you're gonna use a past example to prove a point you should give more context and be more reflective in your analysis of the situation rather than demonizing one side to present yourself as entirely puritan.