OOC, Roleplay, and You(r view)

[LithiumSedai 5750]

37 minutes ago, Proddy said:

 

I like you Lithium, and I hold no eternal grudge against you and you know this, but to address the first half of your post as the player of the persona which was one of the primary reasons said war happened in the first place - I think you're providing a half-sided story of what really happened in a way that feels direly disingenuous.

 

The fact of the matter is that the staff verdict of RP actions having RP consequences wasn't really wrong. The war was an RP consequence of your character deciding to murder my character, the Emperor's nephew, on a visit to your characters city. Remember that you were the one who initiated the CRP to begin with. I don't bemoan you for making a choice in roleplay to do so, and I honoured that RP by PKing, but to see you say the war was completely unjustified and everyone involved in it was just out to get you on an OOC level just feels like a flat out lie.

 

There were things that I did wrong in the aftermath and I regret - the frill assassination plot is still something I will make fun of myself for looking back in retrospect as a sign of how unhealthily obssessed with the minecraft game I was back then (if you know then you know) and whilst I'd stand by that the letter left behind in my character's room about visiting Sutica is something he would've done, if the same thing happened now I would have probably left that out out of respect for the spirit of roleplay. But to say that the war itself was wholly unjustified and just motivated by OOC alone isn't entirely true.

 

Was the RP investigation of the murder itself by the Orenian side half-arsed and not backed by enough thorough roleplay? That part I couldn't tell you honestly as I wasn't involved. And yeah the clip of alty being a malding andy in VC is funny and all, but I think if you're gonna use a past example to prove a point you should give more context and be more reflective in your analysis of the situation rather than demonizing one side to present yourself as entirely puritan.

Though I don't necessarily agree with every aspect of your interpretation of our RP, I should state that obviously hold no ill will over it nor do I think either of our characters' actions were unjustified or not liable to further scrutiny and consequences - if those consequences arrived through sufficient and not OOCly-motivated roleplay. The report I mentioned touched primarily on the investigation part which you weren't involved in, and which jumped through various hoops and committed to wild stretches to arrive to the foregone conclusion of affirmed guilt and necessary military action; or, failing that, to attempt to persuade my nation to offer vassalage, after which it would have still been brutally subjugated regardless of RP development (as proven by myself gaining access after the war to certain chats where this had been discussed).

I do stand firmly by my claim that it was metaplay - and that while the investigation could have certainly been conducted in an outwardly RP-friendly manner, however, behind it lay motivations of OOC revenge (again, by people other than you, of whom many have since apologized). It was disheartening to have staff members agree with my point of view solely in private, refusing to take action publicly over fear of influential groups' outrage, and that this seems to have occurred frequently in the case of many other nation leaders since then.

 

[Gridlock 1033]

After this, you should adress the OOC driven playstyle 99% of players have and the consequences it has for fair and fun CRP.

 

I've yet to see a CRP fight that is held between two players who are not friends or aligned with the same nation that comes without an hour of LOOC bickering and heavy moderation. Our CRP System needs to be changed and emote outcomes need to be more black and white.

 

I've found people unwilling to concede defeat in CRP just because of their OOC investment in their character and their unwillingness to lose. Either people need to change the way they play, and RP for the sake of telling a story rather than RP for the sake of making their character better, or rules need to be implemented to make CRP more black and white with less need for moderation intervention.

 

(Also this is unrelated to OOC involvement in RP, but while I'm nagging: nerf overpowered races and playable creatures or make the requirement to play them more strict. The amount of times I've encountered CRP with undefeatable ungodly strong creatures in the last month is actually mad. It's like everyone and their dog can play a giant monster with no weakness and a gazillion buffs these days.)

[Xarkly 17299]

 

i'd bet 80% of war chat commanders over the last 4 major wars have been the same people for all sides

[Harold 3386]

hahahahahahaha

[Asutto 2452]

i think its a cute idea to moderate metaplay and treat it like metagaming, after all no one joins LoTC with the mindset of 'i wanna become minemans best OOC politiker'

 

BUT

 

heres my question. how are we supposed to fairly moderate and discourage metaplay when a lot of the staff team is privy to metaplay themselves; be it a haense queen abusing omni to take away her workers wages, a hyspian council member privy to their D-Tier scheming and cries of "OOC when leading a nation takes precident" or an Admin who while is mostly RPly inactive sits as a member of one of LoTC's most OOCly ran RP groups.

this not only doesn't seem fair when these people are being asked to investigate or moderate claims of metaplay but by metaplaying themselves they encourage this problem.

[squakhawk 14038]

1 hour ago, Asutto said:

i think its a cute idea to moderate metaplay and treat it like metagaming, after all no one joins LoTC with the mindset of 'i wanna become minemans best OOC politiker'

 

BUT

 

heres my question. how are we supposed to fairly moderate and discourage metaplay when a lot of the staff team is privy to metaplay themselves; be it a haense queen abusing omni to take away her workers wages, a hyspian council member privy to their D-Tier scheming and cries of "OOC when leading a nation takes precident" or an Admin who while is mostly RPly inactive sits as a member of one of LoTC's most OOCly ran RP groups.

this not only doesn't seem fair when these people are being asked to investigate or moderate claims of metaplay but by metaplaying themselves they encourage this problem.

 

 

Send it to the admins, send it to me, and it to any mod you trust. There’s a lot of oversight not only on moderation but on administration for this issue specifically with this initiative. A report sent is necessary for anything to happen, if we don’t already know about it. If you don’t send a report because nothing will happen, it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. My dms are always open and i’m always keeping a keen eye on stuff like this, especially now.

[Rig 17580]

I wanted to post something serious but seeing a bunch of morons talk about things like they’re being watched by HR kind of killed my desire to. I’ll just DM you later.

 

I agree with this direction and feel it will be good for the server. Crackdowns are absolutely necessary to repair the damage that has been done to our setting by OOC Realtime Politik. 

[Aesopian 1639]

I advise you not to moderate metagaming disputes yourselves, if you can help it. Instead, you should create systems that stop metagaming from occurring or regulate its impact, either through plugins or through well-defined rules. An example of the former would be the Rally Bell or Bird plugins; of the latter would be restrictions on joining roleplay or combat after a certain amount of time has passed.

 

I advise that you increase gamification of the server. You should not, for example, unilaterally declare that group X/Y/Z deserves protection and therefore will not be charged nation taxes. Instead, consider establishing alternative resources which players accumulate by being active on the server and/or forums. For example, player activity at a location could reduce the tile taxes for the nation in which they are player. Or, maybe the players should have a number of 'focus points' they can divide up and contribute to nations anonymously, and those points can be used by nations to ameliorate their tax burden: a religious Haenseman might give, of his ten points, six to the church, and four to the nation he lives in. 

 

The precise mathematics and conditions are yours to decide, but I invite you to try it.

[Sarven 2619]

On 8/24/2024 at 3:28 PM, Jihnyny said:

>encourage ST to **** over nations and vassals

Realist thing I heard all day

 

(that aside)

Honestly I feel like its in part because many people get heated and passionate over their communities and nations and want to keep them going through any means necessary, unless you implement as many systems as possible to directly link RP and outcomes-

(like for example adding a Roll-based system to CRP to incentivize players to use an easy streamlined, RP-character-linked system instead of PVP gooning and having some 9 yr old kid who beats a hardened veteran purely because of non-character/rp related gameplay) 

-then I dont see this issue going away, streamlining and making it as easy as possible to resolve conflict and the like through RP would greatly reduce OOC bickering and using non-RP related means of achieving a resolution

 

 

16 hours ago, Gridlock said:

After this, you should adress the OOC driven playstyle 99% of players have and the consequences it has for fair and fun CRP.

 

I've yet to see a CRP fight that is held between two players who are not friends or aligned with the same nation that comes without an hour of LOOC bickering and heavy moderation. Our CRP System needs to be changed and emote outcomes need to be more black and white.

 

I've found people unwilling to concede defeat in CRP just because of their OOC investment in their character and their unwillingness to lose. Either people need to change the way they play, and RP for the sake of telling a story rather than RP for the sake of making their character better, or rules need to be implemented to make CRP more black and white with less need for moderation intervention.

 

(Also this is unrelated to OOC involvement in RP, but while I'm nagging: nerf overpowered races and playable creatures or make the requirement to play them more strict. The amount of times I've encountered CRP with undefeatable ungodly strong creatures in the last month is actually mad. It's like everyone and their dog can play a giant monster with no weakness and a gazillion buffs these days.)

Yeah this exactly

[monkeypoacher 8055]

If you want to get rid of metagaming you have to get rid of the OOC mechanics man. I do not have any sympathy for The Nation Leader, and I am in no way saying that it's justifiable to cheat, but c'mon. If way to survive is to pass a bunch of bullshit activity checks and pay a certain number of minas to the Cloud Temple every month, you're selecting for the people who can pass the activity checks and get the minas, and punishing anyone who can detach themselves from the game and make a fun decision that compromises those two objectives. Metagaming is always going to be the optimal way to get 10,000 minas  or 40% activity or a warclaim W. It will never be easier to roleplay it, and you cannot make it easier.

 

Lord of the Craft should not have meta-objectives. Activity checks and taxes fundamentally defy the basic idea behind LoTC -- that everyone's stupid Minecraft ocs and plotlines have a place and a right to exist. The same goes for absurdly punitive warclaim terms & costs. You should be allowed to make sub-optimal use of your resources. You should be allowed to take up space, build something ugly, wear a stupid skin, do a little failrp. You should be allowed to upset the lore a little bit and make new stuff. Otherwise the metagamers win. And they will keep winning, because they are definitionally better at premium minecraft roleplay than you are.

[shortchangehero 4217]

Can we bring back orc PvP buff?

[NightOfTheWind 3226]

On 8/24/2024 at 7:39 PM, Benleft said:

Most of these problems just need to be talked about ad nauseum. The more we think about the quality of our roleplay the more conscious and compassionate we get. Love will save us, xoxo. 

 

this is the most sane comment on this thread btw

[argonian 14254]

Quote

they feared the common player would simply lose interest due to the OOC potency of the title of "Nation Leader", and would instead just flock to the capital instead.

incredibly well put

 

the solution is always less rules and systems though, and not more!

 

NLs are OOCly significant because of the OOC power they wield and the OOC significance of rules. we need to delete a LOT of our shitty EU4 abstractions to even begin to fix this

On 8/26/2024 at 7:53 AM, monkeypoacher said:

If you want to get rid of metagaming you have to get rid of the OOC mechanics man. I do not have any sympathy for The Nation Leader, and I am in no way saying that it's justifiable to cheat, but c'mon. If way to survive is to pass a bunch of bullshit activity checks and pay a certain number of minas to the Cloud Temple every month, you're selecting for the people who can pass the activity checks and get the minas, and punishing anyone who can detach themselves from the game and make a fun decision that compromises those two objectives. Metagaming is always going to be the optimal way to get 10,000 minas  or 40% activity or a warclaim W. It will never be easier to roleplay it, and you cannot make it easier.

 

Lord of the Craft should not have meta-objectives. Activity checks and taxes fundamentally defy the basic idea behind LoTC -- that everyone's stupid Minecraft ocs and plotlines have a place and a right to exist. You should be allowed to make sub-optimal use of your resources. You should be allowed to take up space, build something ugly, wear a stupid skin, do a little failrp. You should be allowed to upset the lore a little bit and make new stuff. Otherwise the metagamers win. And they will keep winning, because they are definitionally better at premium minecraft roleplay than you are.

100% this

[Treshure 5817]

@squakhawkthis has been accelerating since lotc's teamspeak broke in 2013 for a week and everyone migrated to their own, officially. the big tent is gone and we have killed it

 

take a sledgehammer and start nuking nation and RP group discords. force them back into the dark and bring all the activity back onto the official lotc discord, or not at all. there should be no place to plot other than in the server, or discreetly. Discreetly is still bad, but this normalization has led to RP degradation on a macro scale 

[VonAulus 2082]

Goodluck on addressing these issues. The proliferation of nations has been a constant push-pull since the beginning of the server. The World Team attempted to control this and limit it and was destroyed as a consequence. I hope that new reforms can help to mitigate the splintering of roleplay.

 

In your post, you mentioned that NL's have a lot of pressure on them. The ease to for a group to rebel and become a life long antagonist is a huge part of this. There needs to be incentives to being a good boy vassal vs a rebel. If not an incentive, there needs to be an evening of the good/bad. Good luck.