OOC, Roleplay, and You(r view)

[Haseroth 1740]

1 minute ago, satinkira said:

if you want war to never ever happen again, do this 

me and my bandana wearing friends will be pking you.

[Nectorist 12869]

Any long response will get overlooked, but this is a lofty ideal that I like and appreciate. At the same time, unless there’s drastic action, it’s going to be hard to create a rule structure centered around taking the OOC out of being an NL. The problem with NLs isn’t really that they’re so focused on OOC stuff- that’s always been the case- but rather that they don’t do anything to create RP. I think it’s a lot easier to change nation and NL rules to foster RP from the OOC that inevitably happens than it is to try and change the culture around nation politics, though both are still desirable

[PestyWarlock 539]

It is unfortunate, but OOC scheming revolves around a conflict system which feels outdated and is manipulated by bad actors. This has led to OOC scheming almost needing to be a requirement as others have stated, to keep up with other OOC scheming, as discord messages/vcs will always be a faster method of coordinating than 5 minute cooldown birds.

As people have stated, wars tend to just be a "which OOC groups can I get on my side/how many OOC groups does my enemy have?" This line of questioning, and most lines of questioning brought on by this post, are a result of a war system which encourages OOC scheming. The general understanding I get from other players and myself is that if these wars were not all-or-nothing ("my OOC groups will make sure your OOC groups don't exist anymore") there would be less inclination to need to OOC scheme, and instead there would be more focus on the actual roleplay of the war. In my opinion, this cyclical culture shift can be seen as an act of self-preservation. If one group does it, others will need to as well to keep up or be destroyed, that is just how the war system works.

To me, the issue of OOC scheming is brought on by the issues with the conflict system in general. As much as I hate to bring up issues without resolutions, I can say that we need to better look at how the server addresses conflict and wars. After all, aren't warclaims themselves technically metaplay? It is using an OOC element (PvP) to produce in-character outcomes (removal of a nation) that serves OOC motivation (desire to remove community).

[satin 7600]

4 minutes ago, Haseroth said:

me and my bandana wearing friends will be pking you.

bandits never pk to combat and never fulfil their narrative potential and most of the raids they do are just shadow discord rallies, so why should anyone pk to the average bandit when they’d never give the same courtesy to you?

[PCSwift 1422]

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you said-

because you didn't say anything

[winterblood 11181]

feels like it's too often that i'll have a character where i really enjoy the rp with them and have fun, but if i stepped anywhere near nation politicking in game - it would be massively ruined by the ooc tweaking involved in it

 

 

[Haseroth 1740]

3 minutes ago, satinkira said:

bandits never pk to combat and never fulfil their narrative potential and most of the raids they do are just shadow discord rallies, so why should anyone pk to the average bandit when they’d never give the same courtesy to you?

billions must pk

[MeteorDragon 3441]

It's a shame how it took 4 OOC wars to finally make an announcement about this. I remember having to deal with everything while I was helping Ravenswood and how the Reinmar NL and Celia'nor NL at the time kept trying to make meetings with the Ravenswood NL, but never sent a bird In Game. All their attempts at communication were done through Discord and there were a few occasions where, even after a meeting was set with one of them, they just ditched even thought we were around to accept the meeting. Even after the war has been posted, the Celia'nor constantly sent messages OOCLY to our NL saying stuff like "we can still negotiate." 

Also on the topic of war, once word had gotten around that it was going to happen, several groups OOCLY contacted us offering help or offering to participate in the war, usually in exchange for mina. I believe only one ever actually did anything RPly.

While Im happy that this post has finally come out, it's too late for some communities. Even when attempts had been made to show that things had been done OOCly and had no real IRP basis, or just weak IRP basis(having 1 meeting), nothing was done and narratives driven solely by OOC wants were allowed to happen.

I'll also briefly mention that I was an NL back in 2019 and things were also mainly done OOCly in discord DMs/group chats. While there was some RP involve, it was significantly more than what happens these days.

Edit:
Going to briefly touch on the whole RP Quality Standards thing. I semi-recently(in the past few months) had an absolutely BS interaction with a group of bandit "rpers" that led to a Mod being called. I explained why I thought the situation was against RP Quality Standards, and thus against the rules. The Mod who took the ticket said the following:
"that is banditry for you
it is not something the mod team enforces unless it is in extreme circumstances
if people want to make lame emotes like this, they can
its dumb but it is what it is"
as well as
"you're not creating a narrative by doing this, only being shitty to others

Apparently Mods don't actually care about holding up RP Quality.

[Diogen 3729]

familiar situation
ooc is too ingrained in nation leading, unfortunately a lot of the time is due to really bad actors who get sucked into lotc and believe that the loss of their nation would mean its over for them and what they build, and the rest just have to fight back with ooc

harsh punishments need to be made to ooc scheming, it shouldn't be supported nor condoned
 

Spoiler

 

[lemonke 6014]

Just now, Diogen said:

familiar situation
ooc is too ingrained in nation leading, unfortunately a lot of the time is due to really bad actors who get sucked into lotc and believe that the loss of their nation would mean its over for them and what they build, and the rest just have to fight back with ooc

harsh punishments need to be made to ooc scheming, it shouldn't be supported nor condoned
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I was here before [REDACTED] removes it.

[Tide1 4535]

Trying to wage a war while the opposition is hard at work oocly crafting the one situation where it does not happen has proven to be quite the experience. 

[ShinyB 567]

This definition of Metaplay and the conversations people are having surrounding it seem to only focus on the conflict aspect of Metaplay, or when there are two groups working against each other to reach separate OOC goals, most often seen during wars. I have to ask though, is there going to be a separate definition or guidelines for cooperative Metaplay or is cooperative Metaplay between people or groups of people going to be treated the same as bad faith Metaplay?

 

For example, if an NL works OOCly with a group of darkspawn to create an event for their players, is that going to be treated with the same animosity? If I, as head of an unimportant family, going to be smacked with the book because I organize family meetings over discord? Am I going to get in trouble for roleplaying a child and knowing who my family members are, even if we have never roleplayed at that point? Am I going to get in trouble for reminding someone over discord that their house is going to be evicted?

While some people may argue that cooperation between two nations diplomatically would count as bad faith Metaplay, all I ask is there be a limit stated or a line drawn between what is considered cooperation and bad faith. As it is right now, it is way too broad, especially if harsh punishments are to come for this type of behavior.

 

It is my opinion that an exemption to these guidelines (and potentially future rules) should be made for instances of cooperative Metaplay, or at the very least separate definitions (or a more clear definition of Metaplay) should be made in order to limit interpersonal conflict. In my experience, interpersonal conflict between people or groups tends to arise due to different understandings of the same rules. Clarifying these things I feel like would go a long way in resolving interpersonal conflict before it even starts, as bad actors can take advantage of vague rules.

[The Black Lubba 563]

Ooc is for chatting shit and helping noobs with command questions! Y’all should also crack down on people who claim irp consequences are metagaming when they don’t like said consequences!

[Minuvas 3193]

I would like to ask that rule not infringe on the ability of players to coordinate events with villain groups.

A long time Vassal and Nation leader, you are often in charge of players from across many time zones. Helping to generate a STORY for your players making sure the most PEOPLE can be involved is difficult through organic RP because you are ultimately asking "timezone" questions and orchestrating attacks etc that the other group would not coordinate with you IRPly.

 I personally see as a responsibility of any roleplay leader position to help bring this activity to your group. Being able to talk directly to OOC Villain groups, work with them to "dungeon master" event lines - I found to be both immensely rewarding for my player base as well as the villain group. Those group leaders were very honest with me when it was "we arent orchestrating this, we may win or lose - but we can be at location X by time Y" - this flexibility was highly valuable to me as a NL.

The Deadmen, as run by @Petsch2kand a Demon plot line ran by @TimberBuff- had very positive feedback for my playerbase. Id ask them to chyme in if they think this communication is worth it and should not be infringed on.

As for everything else....yea, the OOC coordination here sucks.

[sam33497 7356]

25 minutes ago, satinkira said:

bandits never pk to combat and never fulfil their narrative potential and most of the raids they do are just shadow discord rallies, so why should anyone pk to the average bandit when they’d never give the same courtesy to you?

speak for yourself kiddo, when my bandit finally got caught he got owned buster scruggs style, instant pk