[Shelved]The Clerics Of Tahariae

[Swgrclan 2633]

Canonically, something cannot exist as a living being without lifeforce, so simply not having lifeforce is impossible for Itheral - they would be psuedo-living, kind of like Harbingers, whom of which apparently had no lifeforce but were fueled by Setherien's power and thus were able to achieve a semi-corporeal form. Unless Itheral are actually holy Harbingers, they need lifeforce to exist as mortal-like beings.

What can make sense, however, if their lifeforce was instead tampered with. It wouldn't prevent them from being drained, but Tahariae or the given patron of the Itheral in question could "bless" their lifeforce and thus cause it to harm any dark being that steals it - Wraiths, Darkstalkers and Liches are not compatible with holy essences and thus "holy" lifeforce would do more harm than good. Kind of like how it's okay to drink normal water, but if you pour motor oil into the water, it becomes toxic and will cause harm if ingested.

As for the drain itself, best bet is to just not get close to a Necromancer before disabling them. You can just as easily harm them from afar and prevent them from using their powers just like you can harm Itheral from afar and prevent them from using their holy fire.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Swgrclan

[DISCOLIQUID 1963]

 

Even if it isn't OP, it doesn't produce roleplay for a necro or wraith to drain an Itharel, as it is as effective as stabbing them in the back. I'm against forced backstabbing for RP fights, as that isn't an RP fight but an instakill that produces no roleplay. If you guys are truly concerned with creating roleplay between clerics and necros, or wraiths and Itharel, then tone down the abilities, don't pursue giving Itharel drainable life force, or make it so clerics can break tethers and such with holy light.

Hesh, if it doesn't produce role-play for a necromancer or wraith to one-drain kill an Itharel, how does it produce role-play for an Itharel to one-blast kill a wraith? 

Respectfully, I am going to invert your paragraph.

Even if it isn't OP, it doesn't produce role-play for an Itharel or cleric to blast a wraith with holy light, as it is as effective as stabbing them with a golden sword. I'm against forced backstabbing for RP fights, as that isn't an RP fight but an instakill that produces no role-play. If you guys are truly concerned with creating role-play between necros and clerics, or Itharel and wraiths, then tone down the abilities, don't pursue giving wraiths a glaring weakness to holy light, or make it so Wraiths can break holy light and such with necromancy.

While that might seem idiotic and is likely a poor attempt to invert your point, that reversed paragraph is how it reads to me. Perhaps a solution may be giving Itharel drainable life force, but only to a minor degree, and allowing Wraiths a certain resistance to holy magic, thereby allowing the two to engage in long combat that isn't just a matter of who can swing first.

[Ventusyr 232]

Hesh, if it doesn't produce role-play for a necromancer or wraith to one-drain kill an Itharel, how does it produce role-play for an Itharel to one-blast kill a wraith? 

Respectfully, I am going to invert your paragraph.

Even if it isn't OP, it doesn't produce role-play for an Itharel or cleric to blast a wraith with holy light, as it is as effective as stabbing them with a golden sword. I'm against forced backstabbing for RP fights, as that isn't an RP fight but an instakill that produces no role-play. If you guys are truly concerned with creating role-play between necros and clerics, or Itharel and wraiths, then tone down the abilities, don't pursue giving wraiths a glaring weakness to holy light, or make it so Wraiths can break holy light and such with necromancy.

While that might seem idiotic and is likely a poor attempt to invert your point, that reversed paragraph is how it reads to me. Perhaps a solution may be giving Itharel drainable life force, but only to a minor degree, and allowing Wraiths a certain resistance to holy magic, thereby allowing the two to engage in long combat that isn't just a matter of who can swing first.

I was actually thinking about this today. Inverted the paragraph and everything. Having muted effects for both, and the ability to counter each other's abilities, would be necessary to create good roleplay.

I'm down with your suggestion then! I'll add that to the List of Things to Do.

[Ventusyr 232]

Moved to roleplay ideas whilst its being worked upon. 

The lore is finally done, with the edits decided between ski and I finished. Could this be moved back to lore suggestions? Thanks!

[Mephistophelian 972]

I think the section about Venators having immunity to mental magic should be clarified... From my understanding of mental magic, your reasoning for their immunity doesn't make sense at all. A person doesn't need to know how they came to be to be affected by mental magic.

[Ventusyr 232]

I think the section about Venators having immunity to mental magic should be clarified... From my understanding of mental magic, your reasoning for their immunity doesn't make sense at all. A person doesn't need to know how they came to be to be affected by mental magic.

So sorry, didn't catch that when it was first put through. Edited!

[Mephistophelian 972]

I've read through your lore, so rest assure do hate my comments are made from an educated opinion of such lore.

 

I feel as though there are precious little drawbacks or weaknesses for much of this lore. It isn't about the main magic, either. It is about the more flashy part of it, the Venators; how Venators have a list of weaknesses that seem like you are grasping at anything to make it look like it is 'balanced', or how many parts of the lore are said to be something but have no underlying explanation (such as 'Venators have a mental barrier' but no explanation as to how this is possible). In my opinion, the lore for these beings must be looked over again, as there is simply too much that is off with it. I am willing to give an outside opinion if you find yourselves unable to unbiasedly write this part of the lore (I understand the struggle). Either way, the Venators lore is well written, but a large pimple in a nice, otherwise smooth patch of skin.

[Ventusyr 232]

I've read through your lore, so rest assure do hate my comments are made from an educated opinion of such lore.

 

I feel as though there are precious little drawbacks or weaknesses for much of this lore. It isn't about the main magic, either. It is about the more flashy part of it, the Venators; how Venators have a list of weaknesses that seem like you are grasping at anything to make it look like it is 'balanced', or how many parts of the lore are said to be something but have no underlying explanation (such as 'Venators have a mental barrier' but no explanation as to how this is possible). In my opinion, the lore for these beings must be looked over again, as there is simply too much that is off with it. I am willing to give an outside opinion if you find yourselves unable to unbiasedly write this part of the lore (I understand the struggle). Either way, the Venators lore is well written, but a large pimple in a nice, otherwise smooth patch of skin.

In short, the Venators are made to be selectively strong against users of magics that can literally trash anybody.

Perhaps if there were more war clerics, and clerics in general, in ratio to the amount of dark beings, they'd be unneeded. However, unlike necromancy or Shadism or tainty, evil magic in general, cleric magic is only selectively powerful; we can't summon holy flame and kill a man, we can't heal someone's arm backwards, and we can't shank people with manifested weapons without being disconnected. Our offensive magic only works against tainted or unholy beings, and our healing magic can only be used to heal. No such drawbacks with the darker magics, who not only can learn other subtypes, but have magic that easily trumps anything mundane forces can throw at it. So instead of asking dark mages to nerf their magics, as Swgr's attempt to do so with necromancy's life drain was so poorly received, I'm going to instead argue that the magic made purely and solely to defeat dark mages be kept.

Venators are the pinnacle of that specialization. They actually forego the majority of roleplay cleric magic brings: healing. Their lack of empathy renders them incapable of meaningful relationship roleplay (and if they do, they're subject to decension for not being dedicated enough, and for powergaming past a weakness). Their lack of priest healing removes about 80% of roleplay a cleric character will receive and provide. Their mission to defeat only the big baddies like wraiths or event unholy creatures like tainted Dragaars (and will only engage the lesser users, such as necromancers and shades, if they are gathered in large enough numbers) limits them to becoming almost an event character. Their delicate outer tissue and severe susceptibility to ichor loss only prevented by their armor makes them even worse in non-magical single combat than a swordsman with equal training, equipment, and stature. They are the trump card that, frankly, is needed. In the same way a cleric shouldn't go up against a wraith in single combat, no dark mage should go up against a Venator single-handedly and expect to live through it.

I know your comments are made with the intentions of fair fights with unholy folk, but until unholy folk aren't impossibly stronk against everybody, a few guys who are stronk against only unholy folk, and specifically the stronkest of stronk unholy folk, Venators should stay. They're really little more than event creatures at this point.

As for mental healing, I didn't write the Venator lore, so I just removed the problematic explanation and replaced it with just a natural holy defense against mental mages. I can instead say it's because their mind is so foreign and different to a normal mortal's that mental magic would be hard-pressed to have any effect, if that would make more sense.

Any other complaints about Venator abilities, please list them so I and the actual players of Venators can address them, and provide some suggestions for limiting their power. I'm just a cleric, and I wrote the lore so that Itharel/Venators were simply no longer needed in the cleric community for the rising of power, and the Itharel players wrote the Venator lore to transform them into purely and only holy warriors.

[Mephistophelian 972]

Removing RP isn't a weakness, it's just a cop out. I can do the same thing:

As a Shade, my character's sleep RP, happy RP, Holy Magic RP, Family RP, Friend RP, and nearly every normal type of RP is affected negatively. Did you see all of those as a drawback in the post for Shade magic? No. Just because something normal isn't achieved, doesn't mean you can say that's a drawback. It's when something /detrimental/ and /abnormal/ is achieved when you count it as a drawback. An example would be the exhaustion from using magic (although that's arguable); people don't normally get exhausted out of thin air, but they do now...Because they are using magic. Or the drawbacks of Soul Puppetry: making someone laugh uncontrollably means you are hit with a fit of giggles for the amount of time your target is made to laugh. These are detrimental things that aren't usually found in day to day life. Not being able to feel love or being emotionally shallow isn't a true drawback, as there are people like that. 

I feel like you misunderstand my issue with Venators...I really like the idea of having something for dark mages to look out for. It's nice! I agree with your 'stronk' explanation...However, I do not like how they have no true weaknesses. Be creative! Just listing things of what they /can't/ do is unoriginal and, more importantly, not a drawback (unless there is a juicier reason behind them not being able to do it...which there isn't, if I'm frank).

You asked for a list, so here it is:

-Give us actual weaknesses (remove the 'weaknesses' that say the things the Venators cannot do, replacing them with better weaknesses, such as being unable to remember their past lives or...idk, being sadists to their lessers).

I'll give you a push in the right direction by referring to Shade lore:
What you are doing:
Shades cannot sleep and are plagued by paranoia because of their dark, evil taint within them.

What you should be doing:
Shades are infested with a twisted, cruel version of themselves. It is a chaotic, hate fuelled being that lives only to make the host miserable enough so that, one day, they may replace them. The host's dreams are riddled with unspeakable nightmares, and even their waking hours are filled with whispers, movements in the corner of one's eyes and self-inflicted illusions. The host gradually becomes an insomniac, and their sleepless minds grow wary of others.

I hope this helps...As I said, give reason. 1+1=2, but you need both 1s to make the two. All I see is the two, here...And a boring two, too.

[Ventusyr 232]

Removing RP isn't a weakness, it's just a cop out. I can do the same thing:

As a Shade, my character's sleep RP, happy RP, Holy Magic RP, Family RP, Friend RP, and nearly every normal type of RP is affected negatively. Did you see all of those as a drawback in the post for Shade magic? No. Just because something normal isn't achieved, doesn't mean you can say that's a drawback. It's when something /detrimental/ and /abnormal/ is achieved when you count it as a drawback. An example would be the exhaustion from using magic (although that's arguable); people don't normally get exhausted out of thin air, but they do now...Because they are using magic. Or the drawbacks of Soul Puppetry: making someone laugh uncontrollably means you are hit with a fit of giggles for the amount of time your target is made to laugh. These are detrimental things that aren't usually found in day to day life. Not being able to feel love or being emotionally shallow isn't a true drawback, as there are people like that. 

I feel like you misunderstand my issue with Venators...I really like the idea of having something for dark mages to look out for. It's nice! I agree with your 'stronk' explanation...However, I do not like how they have no true weaknesses. Be creative! Just listing things of what they /can't/ do is unoriginal and, more importantly, not a drawback (unless there is a juicier reason behind them not being able to do it...which there isn't, if I'm frank).

You asked for a list, so here it is:

-Give us actual weaknesses (remove the 'weaknesses' that say the things the Venators cannot do, replacing them with better weaknesses, such as being unable to remember their past lives or...idk, being sadists to their lessers).

I'll give you a push in the right direction by referring to Shade lore:
What you are doing:
Shades cannot sleep and are plagued by paranoia because of their dark, evil taint within them.

What you should be doing:
Shades are infested with a twisted, cruel version of themselves. It is a chaotic, hate fuelled being that lives only to make the host miserable enough so that, one day, they may replace them. The host's dreams are riddled with unspeakable nightmares, and even their waking hours are filled with whispers, movements in the corner of one's eyes and self-inflicted illusions. The host gradually becomes an insomniac, and their sleepless minds grow wary of others.

I hope this helps...As I said, give reason. 1+1=2, but you need both 1s to make the two. All I see is the two, here...And a boring two, too.

Ah! Okay, I understand. I am so sorry, I definitely did misunderstand your issues with Venators, and you're right, some form of actual drawbacks (rather than limitations) would be fair. I will also work on editing the general pros and cons to be a little more descriptive (again, I didn't write that portion, so I didn't want to manipulate the content too much). I'll start thinking!

[Ventusyr 232]

I believe I am done. Not done yet. Did considerable rewording of the Venator section, added that they lose most of their memory upon Ascension, and moved Shackles of Light from the War Cleric list of spells to now become a Venator-only spell. Also added/clarified that mundane weapons of any sort disrupt a Venators ability to summon spells.

 

I also changed the magic so a second connection is no longer needed to become a war cleric. They are simply another list of spells. Now, there is a connection ritual to allow clerics to use any and all clerical abilities. Solves issues of war cleric magic being dead because nobody is around to connect and teach clerics.

 

Will be introducing conceptual explanations of each spell that is more than a sentence, and will be introducing Prophet lore and the Utterings of Tahariae, a new set of Tenets for clerics to follow (because those five are hella vague).

Edited October 18, 2015 by Незнакомец

[Lima 773]

Is progress being made on this?

[ℤ∃ʁ∅ 823]

Is progress being made on this?

yes there's been lots of changes. It's more in depth like gotta look into it. 

 

Hesh make a change log please

[Ventusyr 232]

Is progress being made on this?

Progress was momentarily stopped for me to focus on midterms. There is progress currently, but it is in google and word documents, and I'll need a little more time to finish them. Left a post saying what I'm adding:

 

Will be introducing conceptual explanations of each spell that is more than a sentence, and will be introducing Prophet lore and the Utterings of Tahariae, a new set of Tenets for clerics to follow (because those five are hella vague).

[𝙻𝚞𝚟 XO 3066]

Slightly confused on the disconnection aspect, I will probably go through all the comments and read the explanation, but other than that I like it. +1