NotEvilAtAll 9945 Share Posted August 29, 2023 I changed +1 skill off/def into +2 skill off/def, and +2 skill off/def into +4 skill off/def Attacking first 10 hp: Spoiler Average: 0.5540346666666669 Human Brute win rate of 0.5951733333333332 Human Warrior win rate of 0.5873600000000002 Human Fighter win rate of 0.5964133333333332 Human Pugilist win rate of 0.6156266666666668 Human Confident win rate of 0.4697466666666664 Human Rock win rate of 0.5779200000000001 Human Brawler win rate of 0.5659200000000002 Human Guardian win rate of 0.5952533333333332 Human Resolute win rate of 0.58624 Human Knight win rate of 0.5392399999999999 Human Duelist win rate of 0.5998266666666668 Human Trained win rate of 0.5944933333333334 Human Sentinel win rate of 0.6628933333333336 Human Sage; win rate of 0.6172133333333333 Human Scholar win rate of 0.5934400000000002 Elf Brute win rate of 0.4821866666666667 Elf Warrior win rate of 0.46565333333333314 Elf Fighter win rate of 0.4721066666666668 Elf Pugilist win rate of 0.47070666666666655 Elf Confident win rate of 0.48101333333333324 Elf Rock win rate of 0.6068133333333333 Elf Brawler win rate of 0.6018533333333334 Elf Guardian win rate of 0.5828 Elf Resolute win rate of 0.5978266666666667 Elf Knight win rate of 0.5766799999999999 Elf Duelist win rate of 0.5963733333333334 Elf Trained win rate of 0.6170666666666669 Elf Sentinel win rate of 0.6174933333333334 Elf Sage; win rate of 0.5976799999999999 Elf Scholar win rate of 0.577386666666667 Dwarf Brute win rate of 0.5448933333333335 Dwarf Warrior win rate of 0.5554133333333335 Dwarf Fighter win rate of 0.5825866666666667 Dwarf Pugilist win rate of 0.5780000000000001 Dwarf Confident win rate of 0.42819999999999986 Dwarf Rock win rate of 0.5600933333333334 Dwarf Brawler win rate of 0.5768399999999999 Dwarf Guardian win rate of 0.5736933333333334 Dwarf Resolute win rate of 0.5533199999999999 Dwarf Knight win rate of 0.5647466666666666 Dwarf Duelist win rate of 0.5956400000000002 Dwarf Trained win rate of 0.5827066666666666 Dwarf Sentinel win rate of 0.6248800000000002 Dwarf Sage; win rate of 0.5717599999999999 Dwarf Scholar win rate of 0.5467466666666667 Orc Brute win rate of 0.5218666666666667 Orc Warrior win rate of 0.5641866666666664 Orc Fighter win rate of 0.5977999999999998 Orc Pugilist win rate of 0.5465466666666665 Orc Confident win rate of 0.4351333333333333 Orc Rock win rate of 0.5784799999999998 Orc Brawler win rate of 0.6059466666666666 Orc Guardian win rate of 0.55464 Orc Resolute win rate of 0.4352933333333332 Orc Knight win rate of 0.5998800000000002 Orc Duelist win rate of 0.5858666666666668 Orc Trained win rate of 0.4619866666666666 Orc Sentinel win rate of 0.5728533333333331 Orc Sage; win rate of 0.42530666666666656 Orc Scholar win rate of 0.43438666666666675 Halfling Brute win rate of 0.4408933333333334 Halfling Warrior win rate of 0.42414666666666656 Halfling Fighter win rate of 0.47195999999999977 Halfling Pugilist win rate of 0.4691599999999998 Halfling Confident win rate of 0.44401333333333337 Halfling Rock win rate of 0.556466666666667 Halfling Brawler win rate of 0.5828666666666666 Halfling Guardian win rate of 0.5770533333333332 Halfling Resolute win rate of 0.5442133333333333 Halfling Knight win rate of 0.5955866666666665 Halfling Duelist win rate of 0.6139333333333331 Halfling Trained win rate of 0.5925999999999999 Halfling Sentinel win rate of 0.6381333333333332 Halfling Sage; win rate of 0.5756666666666669 Halfling Scholar win rate of 0.5258133333333336 Attacking second 10 hp Spoiler Average: 0.44600782222222224 Human Brute win rate of 0.46242666666666676 Human Warrior win rate of 0.4766133333333334 Human Fighter win rate of 0.4582933333333332 Human Pugilist win rate of 0.5207066666666667 Human Confident win rate of 0.35405333333333333 Human Rock win rate of 0.49175999999999986 Human Brawler win rate of 0.4505199999999999 Human Guardian win rate of 0.5130400000000002 Human Resolute win rate of 0.47877333333333344 Human Knight win rate of 0.4017999999999999 Human Duelist win rate of 0.5006533333333332 Human Trained win rate of 0.4610666666666666 Human Sentinel win rate of 0.5956533333333333 Human Sage; win rate of 0.5212399999999999 Human Scholar win rate of 0.4645733333333334 Elf Brute win rate of 0.3295733333333332 Elf Warrior win rate of 0.34009333333333347 Elf Fighter win rate of 0.31893333333333335 Elf Pugilist win rate of 0.35414666666666683 Elf Confident win rate of 0.3302 Elf Rock win rate of 0.4947066666666666 Elf Brawler win rate of 0.4572933333333335 Elf Guardian win rate of 0.4766666666666667 Elf Resolute win rate of 0.4598 Elf Knight win rate of 0.3937733333333332 Elf Duelist win rate of 0.4610400000000001 Elf Trained win rate of 0.4354666666666665 Elf Sentinel win rate of 0.5196666666666667 Elf Sage; win rate of 0.46334666666666674 Elf Scholar win rate of 0.4109200000000001 Dwarf Brute win rate of 0.44847999999999993 Dwarf Warrior win rate of 0.47415999999999997 Dwarf Fighter win rate of 0.47992000000000007 Dwarf Pugilist win rate of 0.4975733333333332 Dwarf Confident win rate of 0.3390533333333334 Dwarf Rock win rate of 0.49408000000000013 Dwarf Brawler win rate of 0.4907866666666667 Dwarf Guardian win rate of 0.50656 Dwarf Resolute win rate of 0.4747333333333331 Dwarf Knight win rate of 0.4539999999999998 Dwarf Duelist win rate of 0.5116133333333334 Dwarf Trained win rate of 0.48110666666666646 Dwarf Sentinel win rate of 0.5734000000000001 Dwarf Sage; win rate of 0.49679999999999996 Dwarf Scholar win rate of 0.4470933333333333 Orc Brute win rate of 0.4020133333333334 Orc Warrior win rate of 0.4632133333333334 Orc Fighter win rate of 0.45666666666666683 Orc Pugilist win rate of 0.4504799999999998 Orc Confident win rate of 0.31895999999999985 Orc Rock win rate of 0.49941333333333326 Orc Brawler win rate of 0.4916933333333335 Orc Guardian win rate of 0.4762933333333332 Orc Resolute win rate of 0.3437066666666666 Orc Knight win rate of 0.4524000000000001 Orc Duelist win rate of 0.47584000000000004 Orc Trained win rate of 0.3415466666666667 Orc Sentinel win rate of 0.49975999999999987 Orc Sage; win rate of 0.34014666666666676 Orc Scholar win rate of 0.32216 Halfling Brute win rate of 0.33346666666666674 Halfling Warrior win rate of 0.33648 Halfling Fighter win rate of 0.35754666666666673 Halfling Pugilist win rate of 0.38612000000000013 Halfling Confident win rate of 0.33229333333333333 Halfling Rock win rate of 0.47389333333333333 Halfling Brawler win rate of 0.47476 Halfling Guardian win rate of 0.4983066666666666 Halfling Resolute win rate of 0.4474933333333333 Halfling Knight win rate of 0.4581066666666667 Halfling Duelist win rate of 0.5174 Halfling Trained win rate of 0.4626133333333332 Halfling Sentinel win rate of 0.5752 Halfling Sage; win rate of 0.48928 Halfling Scholar win rate of 0.4071733333333335 This flips things around into having Skill attack/def races and archetypes do better than Str attack/def races and archetypes. Maybe it'd be more fair to change the damage die into a d8 or something and modify health accordingly, thus a +1 or -1 to the d8 is less impactful than it is for d6 damage? idk. Sure, this change means some of the other archetypes get to shine but I'd feel bad for orcs in this ruleset who are suddenly only about as good as halflings are. Skill attack/def bonus reverted back to +1, +2, not +2, +4, d8 damage and 15 hp, attacking first: Spoiler Average: 0.5497749333333334 Human Brute win rate of 0.5719733333333332 Human Warrior win rate of 0.5699600000000001 Human Fighter win rate of 0.5362133333333332 Human Pugilist win rate of 0.5390666666666667 Human Confident win rate of 0.46176000000000017 Human Rock win rate of 0.5637733333333335 Human Brawler win rate of 0.5107466666666665 Human Guardian win rate of 0.5196266666666665 Human Resolute win rate of 0.5699066666666667 Human Knight win rate of 0.4599466666666668 Human Duelist win rate of 0.48301333333333324 Human Trained win rate of 0.5344933333333334 Human Sentinel win rate of 0.49612000000000006 Human Sage; win rate of 0.5372266666666665 Human Scholar win rate of 0.57148 Elf Brute win rate of 0.5095600000000002 Elf Warrior win rate of 0.4997466666666668 Elf Fighter win rate of 0.46224 Elf Pugilist win rate of 0.4624266666666666 Elf Confident win rate of 0.5104799999999998 Elf Rock win rate of 0.6227199999999999 Elf Brawler win rate of 0.5760266666666664 Elf Guardian win rate of 0.5679466666666668 Elf Resolute win rate of 0.6138266666666665 Elf Knight win rate of 0.5284533333333332 Elf Duelist win rate of 0.5317733333333334 Elf Trained win rate of 0.5846799999999999 Elf Sentinel win rate of 0.53596 Elf Sage; win rate of 0.5725066666666667 Elf Scholar win rate of 0.6067200000000001 Dwarf Brute win rate of 0.5950400000000002 Dwarf Warrior win rate of 0.6011066666666668 Dwarf Fighter win rate of 0.5649600000000001 Dwarf Pugilist win rate of 0.56028 Dwarf Confident win rate of 0.48373333333333346 Dwarf Rock win rate of 0.6114799999999999 Dwarf Brawler win rate of 0.5641466666666667 Dwarf Guardian win rate of 0.5587466666666666 Dwarf Resolute win rate of 0.6026533333333334 Dwarf Knight win rate of 0.5081066666666666 Dwarf Duelist win rate of 0.5191866666666667 Dwarf Trained win rate of 0.5686266666666664 Dwarf Sentinel win rate of 0.5244 Dwarf Sage; win rate of 0.56328 Dwarf Scholar win rate of 0.5931066666666667 Orc Brute win rate of 0.6267733333333335 Orc Warrior win rate of 0.6471466666666665 Orc Fighter win rate of 0.60964 Orc Pugilist win rate of 0.5941466666666665 Orc Confident win rate of 0.5319066666666666 Orc Rock win rate of 0.6646800000000003 Orc Brawler win rate of 0.6229466666666662 Orc Guardian win rate of 0.6020266666666668 Orc Resolute win rate of 0.5346799999999998 Orc Knight win rate of 0.5731199999999999 Orc Duelist win rate of 0.5676933333333332 Orc Trained win rate of 0.49938666666666676 Orc Sentinel win rate of 0.5591733333333336 Orc Sage; win rate of 0.4852000000000001 Orc Scholar win rate of 0.5312533333333331 Halfling Brute win rate of 0.49129333333333336 Halfling Warrior win rate of 0.48345333333333335 Halfling Fighter win rate of 0.46164000000000005 Halfling Pugilist win rate of 0.4574666666666666 Halfling Confident win rate of 0.4933199999999998 Halfling Rock win rate of 0.6039733333333336 Halfling Brawler win rate of 0.5667466666666666 Halfling Guardian win rate of 0.5603733333333332 Halfling Resolute win rate of 0.5964000000000003 Halfling Knight win rate of 0.53644 Halfling Duelist win rate of 0.5373333333333331 Halfling Trained win rate of 0.5707066666666666 Halfling Sentinel win rate of 0.5423866666666666 Halfling Sage; win rate of 0.5672933333333335 Halfling Scholar win rate of 0.5852933333333336 Same as above but attacking second: Spoiler Average: 0.450464 Human Brute win rate of 0.45785333333333333 Human Warrior win rate of 0.4679866666666666 Human Fighter win rate of 0.42066666666666663 Human Pugilist win rate of 0.43878666666666677 Human Confident win rate of 0.35812 Human Rock win rate of 0.47675999999999985 Human Brawler win rate of 0.41036 Human Guardian win rate of 0.4351333333333333 Human Resolute win rate of 0.46829333333333334 Human Knight win rate of 0.35736000000000007 Human Duelist win rate of 0.38770666666666664 Human Trained win rate of 0.41725333333333336 Human Sentinel win rate of 0.41888000000000014 Human Sage; win rate of 0.4441466666666667 Human Scholar win rate of 0.4595733333333333 Elf Brute win rate of 0.38358666666666663 Elf Warrior win rate of 0.39576000000000017 Elf Fighter win rate of 0.34536000000000017 Elf Pugilist win rate of 0.3583466666666667 Elf Confident win rate of 0.38372000000000006 Elf Rock win rate of 0.5254266666666669 Elf Brawler win rate of 0.45846666666666686 Elf Guardian win rate of 0.46890666666666675 Elf Resolute win rate of 0.5030666666666667 Elf Knight win rate of 0.39450666666666667 Elf Duelist win rate of 0.42098666666666645 Elf Trained win rate of 0.44842666666666664 Elf Sentinel win rate of 0.4416266666666665 Elf Sage; win rate of 0.4598933333333334 Elf Scholar win rate of 0.4745999999999999 Dwarf Brute win rate of 0.49684000000000006 Dwarf Warrior win rate of 0.5236 Dwarf Fighter win rate of 0.4702133333333332 Dwarf Pugilist win rate of 0.47661333333333344 Dwarf Confident win rate of 0.39148000000000016 Dwarf Rock win rate of 0.5393866666666666 Dwarf Brawler win rate of 0.47582666666666656 Dwarf Guardian win rate of 0.4852799999999997 Dwarf Resolute win rate of 0.5207599999999999 Dwarf Knight win rate of 0.41257333333333324 Dwarf Duelist win rate of 0.43790666666666683 Dwarf Trained win rate of 0.46583999999999987 Dwarf Sentinel win rate of 0.4550133333333334 Dwarf Sage; win rate of 0.4792666666666667 Dwarf Scholar win rate of 0.4974133333333335 Orc Brute win rate of 0.5171466666666668 Orc Warrior win rate of 0.5509466666666668 Orc Fighter win rate of 0.4977599999999998 Orc Pugilist win rate of 0.5017733333333332 Orc Confident win rate of 0.4228666666666666 Orc Rock win rate of 0.5865866666666669 Orc Brawler win rate of 0.5261466666666665 Orc Guardian win rate of 0.5202933333333335 Orc Resolute win rate of 0.44382666666666665 Orc Knight win rate of 0.4582666666666668 Orc Duelist win rate of 0.46793333333333353 Orc Trained win rate of 0.3937733333333333 Orc Sentinel win rate of 0.4796666666666666 Orc Sage; win rate of 0.3940133333333333 Orc Scholar win rate of 0.4251066666666665 Halfling Brute win rate of 0.38859999999999995 Halfling Warrior win rate of 0.39422666666666667 Halfling Fighter win rate of 0.35796 Halfling Pugilist win rate of 0.37327999999999983 Halfling Confident win rate of 0.3896266666666667 Halfling Rock win rate of 0.5206933333333331 Halfling Brawler win rate of 0.46613333333333334 Halfling Guardian win rate of 0.4778799999999999 Halfling Resolute win rate of 0.49795999999999985 Halfling Knight win rate of 0.4196533333333334 Halfling Duelist win rate of 0.44247999999999993 Halfling Trained win rate of 0.46036 Halfling Sentinel win rate of 0.4603466666666668 Halfling Sage; win rate of 0.46592000000000006 Halfling Scholar win rate of 0.474 Maaaaybe a bit more balanced, idk Looking at it again, I'm most fond of these 15 hp d8 damage numbers. Might tweak more in the future, but just a few archetypes need to be tweaked a bit to make it good. Maybe changing it to d10 damage is what'd finally make Skill attck/def and Str attck/def equal. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterBlitzkrieg 1357 Share Posted August 29, 2023 4 hours ago, Burnsider said: Other CAs [+1 to a single Statistic of their choice] represent the gamut of all playable races in Lord of the Craft. As they lack the innate blessings of the soul of a descendant race, they only receive one innate bonus. However, to recognize the sheer diversity between them, they may choose which Statistic to increase. Love the system that you made buff but this doesnt really work when you consider there are CA's that are stronger than orcs even such as Ologs (who are also orcs more or less). If we used your system here then a Olog would be weaker than a orc when it should be the other way around since the olog only gets a +1 in one attribute. Maybe detailing the buffs of some of the main CAs would be benificial? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onnensr 594 Share Posted August 29, 2023 very nice!! it would be great to see this become widely accepted, and someday expanded upon as a plugin - though I know that takes dev work and time. roll combat is the way forward 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samler 1047 Share Posted August 29, 2023 I feel dumb for always forgetting 2dx systems exist. Can we petition to tweak it ever so slightly for CA's, some feats (looking at you Tawkins) and impliment it? :) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diogen 3107 Share Posted August 29, 2023 Since CAs tend to define their strength and durability referring to races & material, I believe we can keep the system simple without overcomplicating it by having these CAs refer to certain race strengths and durability in order to set up their modifiers. This means, if we have, lets say, a CA of originally Elf strength, although are known for being powerful casters, then you would use the Elf + Scholar / Sage modifiers. Or for example, if we take the Azdrazi's dragon transformation which gives them Olog strength, then their attack modifiers would change to fit that of the Olog's modifiers. Using @Fishy's suggestion of renaming the stats to further simplify it: Quote SUGGESTED RENAME: Strength (Offense) to Strength abrv. STR Strength (Defense) to Endurance abrv. END Skill (Offense) to Dexterity abrv. DEX Skill (Defense) to Agility abrv. AGI Spirit to SPR Here's my proposed changes: Quote Races Each race has innate differences between each other, giving them innate bonuses to statistic. Humans [+1 each to DEX and AGI] have the shortest lives of all the descendant races and yet often culturally spend the most amount of time fighting each other than any other race. As such, they have an innate bonus to Skill (Offense) and Skill (Defense) to recognize this culture of combat and heraldry that has been embraced by the humans. Elves [+1 each to DEX and SPR] are the longest lived of all the descendant races, and will spend years honing their skills with blade, bow, and magic. To many of them, combat and magic are as much art forms as painting or singing. As such, they have an innate bonus to Skill (Offense) and Spirit to recognize this dedication to the art of combat. Dwarves [+1 each to END and AGI] have spent their lives in the deep, building immense fortresses of stone to protect their people and assets from invaders. Their bodies, too, are stalwart and strong. As such, they have an innate bonus to Strength (Defense) and Skill (Defense) to recognize their mastery of defensive warfare. Orcs [+1 each to STR and END] are the strongest and most naturally powerful of all the descendant races. Their ability to deal damage and withstand the same is without peer. As such, they have an innate bonus to Strength (Offense) and Strength (Defense) to recognize the brute force that they bring to the battlefield. Halflings [+1 each to AGI and SPR] are the gentlest of the races, caring more for the love of good food and drink than warfare. However, push a halfling to act and you will find them to be able to wiggle out of many situations, both physical and mental. As such, they have an innate bonus to Skill (Defense) and Spirit to recognize their willpower and small nature. Ologs [+2 to each STR and END, -2 to DEX] are by far the strongest Descendant race. Their sheer strength capable of obliterating the typical person, as well as their massive body being more durable than even an Orc. Although, the drawback to such brute force is their more telegraphed movements. Musin [-2 to STR and END, +2 to AGI and DEX] they are an exceptionally weak but nimble race, incapable of taking on the typical Descendant by themselves alone, although make up for it by being much more nimble. Kha, Hou-Zi, other animal races [+1 to each DEX and STR] these races tend to be slightly deadlier than the typical Descendant due to factors such as their innate claws, slightly increased agility, or slightly increased strength. Other CAs [+1 to a single Statistic of their choice] represent the gamut of all playable races in Lord of the Craft. As they lack the innate blessings of the soul of a descendant race, they only receive one innate bonus. However, to recognize the sheer diversity between them, they may choose which Statistic to increase. Archetypes will remain untouched, although here is another section to consider: Quote Surprise attacks: Advantage on attack skill checks against the target. Struck by their weakness (i.e Aurum against Darkspawn, Azdrazi vs magical ice, Fjarriagua vs fire): Either advantage, or +1 to the damage roll against them. (to be debated further upon) Restrained, Dazed, Stunned or Prone: Advantage on attack skill checks against the target. Blinded, vision impaired, attempting to shoot at someone inside of a smoke cloud, attempting to shoot out of a smoke cloud: Disadvantage on skill checks. (PS that items that can bypass the vision impairment from smoke clouds are exempt from this.) The topic of armor has also not been given a system at all. I recommend giving things such as padded leather & chainmail +1 to END, +2 for plate, +3 for thick-stone strength armor (such as earth rune on armor) with a -1 to AGI in return for such a slow-moving armor. Voidal mages (and any caster-type CA or MA that reduces one's strength in return for magic) should have a -1 to STR but a +1 to SPR instead 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunnic 348 Share Posted August 29, 2023 Spoiler luv roll crp, luv burnsider, 'ate "honor" roleplay, 'ate powergamers. Simple as chaps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samler 1047 Share Posted August 30, 2023 Just had a quick CRP fight with these rules, felt good, maybe slightly more hp (not twice as much). Had a human warrior (+1 str O str D Skill O and skill D) vs an elf dualist (+2 skill O, +1 Skill D) with the elf going first. Lasted about 6 rounds, our rolls were mostly highs on the to-hit. I think the main winning factor of this system is you don't lose your action if you defend. as honour currently goes Player A attacks, Player B defends. Player A defends, Player B defends. Or Player A attacks, Player B tanks it, attacks player A. Player A tanks it, attacks Player B, Player B tanks it, attacks Player A... It also helps with the effects being determined, we emoted attack, contest skill roll, (if successful dmg) and allowed the other party emote the defence/failed defence and their follow up action. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlitheryC1 487 Share Posted August 30, 2023 (edited) I feel like archetypes could very easily be summarized as a point buy system. It can be summarized as "you have 2 points, put them into any stat you'd like". Also, Skill is WAAAY less important than Strength as is right now. an absolute unit with 3 strength defense will be completely okay half the time each time a person with 0 Offensive strength smacks them, assuming the area isn't armored- in which case their strikes will only deal 1-2 damage a third of the time, which is just outright busted. Offensive strength, meanwhile, is just downright horrifying. Meanwhile, +1s, +2s and +3s very minorly shift the skills portion as while yes, you might land your hits and dodge more often- you might get completely and utterly stomped the moment you do get caught, and your attacks might do nothing half the time. CAs are completely fine, and can even be modified if they'd like given the rule "Story is king". it'd make sense for ologs to have a natural -2 reduced skill in both offense and defense, but an extra +2 in strength Offense/Defense, though this is something to have a discussion about with the people you are holding the crp fight with. All and all, really great system! I do look forwards to using it, math junk aside it seems real handy. I've already made some for my current characters. 23 hours ago, Moribundity said: Quite easy Void mages get a -1 to strength defense but a +1 to spirit Voidal Scions get a +1 to strength offense in exchange for a -1 to spirit Gold and salt does +2 damage to CAs, MAs and FAs affected by gold and salt. Hitting an Azdrazi with a cold weapon or projectile grants them a -1 bonus to skill defense and skill offense for two turns OR does +2 damage to them. Sounds good, but... personally, +2 damage is a LOT Especially considering when a gigamaxed brute orc with a +3 to offensive strength can already nearly 1 shot normal descendants that have 0 armor/defensive strength (roll of 6 on damage, +3 due to strength = 9 damage). lil worried bout that as it means an extra +2 will result in the one tapping of an unarmored, 0 strength defense spook whenever the orc rolls a 5 or higher to deal damage even if they are at full health Edited August 30, 2023 by SlitheryC1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotEvilAtAll 9945 Share Posted August 30, 2023 41 minutes ago, SlitheryC1 said: Also, Skill is WAAAY less important than Strength as is right now. changing the system to d12 damage dice and 25 hp makes skill vs strength not as big a difference so that is the system to use if you want your skill build to be just as viable as strength builds Stats for d12 damage, 25 hp Spoiler Attack first Human Brute win rate of 0.56536 Human Warrior win rate of 0.5630800000000004 Human Fighter win rate of 0.5588933333333331 Human Pugilist win rate of 0.5644400000000004 Human Confident win rate of 0.4784000000000001 Human Rock win rate of 0.5621466666666667 Human Brawler win rate of 0.5478533333333332 Human Guardian win rate of 0.5504 Human Resolute win rate of 0.5639066666666667 Human Knight win rate of 0.5284533333333331 Human Duelist win rate of 0.5439333333333334 Human Trained win rate of 0.5595200000000001 Human Sentinel win rate of 0.56468 Human Sage; win rate of 0.5626266666666667 Human Scholar win rate of 0.5678533333333335 Elf Brute win rate of 0.49643999999999977 Elf Warrior win rate of 0.4915200000000002 Elf Fighter win rate of 0.4816 Elf Pugilist win rate of 0.47917333333333345 Elf Confident win rate of 0.4954266666666666 Elf Rock win rate of 0.57996 Elf Brawler win rate of 0.5670133333333335 Elf Guardian win rate of 0.5638533333333334 Elf Resolute win rate of 0.5798933333333334 Elf Knight win rate of 0.5546400000000001 Elf Duelist win rate of 0.55704 Elf Trained win rate of 0.5739199999999999 Elf Sentinel win rate of 0.5648400000000002 Elf Sage; win rate of 0.5674533333333336 Elf Scholar win rate of 0.5758666666666663 Dwarf Brute win rate of 0.5645600000000002 Dwarf Warrior win rate of 0.56392 Dwarf Fighter win rate of 0.56624 Dwarf Pugilist win rate of 0.5570266666666664 Dwarf Confident win rate of 0.4747600000000003 Dwarf Rock win rate of 0.5633600000000003 Dwarf Brawler win rate of 0.5606800000000001 Dwarf Guardian win rate of 0.5529733333333334 Dwarf Resolute win rate of 0.5658133333333333 Dwarf Knight win rate of 0.5467066666666669 Dwarf Duelist win rate of 0.5519066666666668 Dwarf Trained win rate of 0.56292 Dwarf Sentinel win rate of 0.5530266666666667 Dwarf Sage; win rate of 0.5548133333333332 Dwarf Scholar win rate of 0.5620666666666666 Orc Brute win rate of 0.5684400000000002 Orc Warrior win rate of 0.5794266666666666 Orc Fighter win rate of 0.5798133333333333 Orc Pugilist win rate of 0.5645999999999999 Orc Confident win rate of 0.49126666666666674 Orc Rock win rate of 0.5887466666666669 Orc Brawler win rate of 0.5808933333333337 Orc Guardian win rate of 0.560133333333333 Orc Resolute win rate of 0.49098666666666646 Orc Knight win rate of 0.5693199999999998 Orc Duelist win rate of 0.5625466666666665 Orc Trained win rate of 0.48932000000000014 Orc Sentinel win rate of 0.5593866666666666 Orc Sage; win rate of 0.47681333333333337 Orc Scholar win rate of 0.49139999999999995 Halfling Brute win rate of 0.48346666666666666 Halfling Warrior win rate of 0.4770266666666666 Halfling Fighter win rate of 0.48084000000000005 Halfling Pugilist win rate of 0.47617333333333334 Halfling Confident win rate of 0.4802133333333333 Halfling Rock win rate of 0.5649866666666667 Halfling Brawler win rate of 0.5612400000000001 Halfling Guardian win rate of 0.5580933333333333 Halfling Resolute win rate of 0.56236 Halfling Knight win rate of 0.5591733333333334 Halfling Duelist win rate of 0.5651866666666666 Halfling Trained win rate of 0.5700133333333333 Halfling Sentinel win rate of 0.5707600000000002 Halfling Sage; win rate of 0.5627199999999999 Halfling Scholar win rate of 0.5566133333333336 0.5452389333333333 average Attack second Human Brute win rate of 0.46674666666666664 Human Warrior win rate of 0.47203999999999996 Human Fighter win rate of 0.4570666666666668 Human Pugilist win rate of 0.47513333333333313 Human Confident win rate of 0.38543999999999995 Human Rock win rate of 0.47933333333333356 Human Brawler win rate of 0.45343999999999995 Human Guardian win rate of 0.47553333333333325 Human Resolute win rate of 0.47369333333333324 Human Knight win rate of 0.4281466666666666 Human Duelist win rate of 0.45619999999999994 Human Trained win rate of 0.45625333333333334 Human Sentinel win rate of 0.4909066666666667 Human Sage; win rate of 0.47696 Human Scholar win rate of 0.46401333333333333 Elf Brute win rate of 0.38805333333333325 Elf Warrior win rate of 0.39402666666666664 Elf Fighter win rate of 0.37326666666666675 Elf Pugilist win rate of 0.38272000000000006 Elf Confident win rate of 0.3893466666666665 Elf Rock win rate of 0.4888666666666667 Elf Brawler win rate of 0.4651200000000001 Elf Guardian win rate of 0.47191999999999995 Elf Resolute win rate of 0.47577333333333344 Elf Knight win rate of 0.43393333333333345 Elf Duelist win rate of 0.4566800000000001 Elf Trained win rate of 0.45925333333333335 Elf Sentinel win rate of 0.4775733333333332 Elf Sage; win rate of 0.4679200000000002 Elf Scholar win rate of 0.4601999999999999 Dwarf Brute win rate of 0.4745333333333333 Dwarf Warrior win rate of 0.48832000000000003 Dwarf Fighter win rate of 0.4728666666666667 Dwarf Pugilist win rate of 0.48150666666666675 Dwarf Confident win rate of 0.39420000000000005 Dwarf Rock win rate of 0.5001199999999999 Dwarf Brawler win rate of 0.4776266666666668 Dwarf Guardian win rate of 0.4871866666666665 Dwarf Resolute win rate of 0.4874933333333332 Dwarf Knight win rate of 0.45936000000000016 Dwarf Duelist win rate of 0.4747333333333332 Dwarf Trained win rate of 0.47613333333333346 Dwarf Sentinel win rate of 0.49106666666666643 Dwarf Sage; win rate of 0.47873333333333334 Dwarf Scholar win rate of 0.47369333333333336 Orc Brute win rate of 0.46910666666666667 Orc Warrior win rate of 0.4923066666666665 Orc Fighter win rate of 0.4792933333333333 Orc Pugilist win rate of 0.47617333333333317 Orc Confident win rate of 0.39517333333333327 Orc Rock win rate of 0.51144 Orc Brawler win rate of 0.4877333333333333 Orc Guardian win rate of 0.48496 Orc Resolute win rate of 0.4073333333333334 Orc Knight win rate of 0.46403999999999995 Orc Duelist win rate of 0.4730000000000002 Orc Trained win rate of 0.39318666666666663 Orc Sentinel win rate of 0.48012 Orc Sage; win rate of 0.3951333333333333 Orc Scholar win rate of 0.3958266666666668 Halfling Brute win rate of 0.3881199999999999 Halfling Warrior win rate of 0.3950666666666666 Halfling Fighter win rate of 0.3878133333333333 Halfling Pugilist win rate of 0.39972000000000013 Halfling Confident win rate of 0.3880000000000002 Halfling Rock win rate of 0.4860800000000001 Halfling Brawler win rate of 0.46956 Halfling Guardian win rate of 0.4807199999999999 Halfling Resolute win rate of 0.4725466666666666 Halfling Knight win rate of 0.4537733333333334 Halfling Duelist win rate of 0.4750666666666667 Halfling Trained win rate of 0.46647999999999995 Halfling Sentinel win rate of 0.4981600000000001 Halfling Sage; win rate of 0.4746933333333334 Halfling Scholar win rate of 0.46095999999999987 0.45486293333333333 average I think these above numbers are balanced enough to be able to pick your archetype based on RP instead of what is "meta", it's really only a problem if you pick some archetype that conflicts with your race such as going for str attck if your race has a spirit buff, or vice versa if your race has an str attck buff, since you can only use one of those values on a damage die at once. same as above but with 10k repetitions instead of 1k Spoiler Human Brute win rate of 0.5683426666666667 Human Warrior win rate of 0.5635253333333331 Human Fighter win rate of 0.5579906666666669 Human Pugilist win rate of 0.5629973333333335 Human Confident win rate of 0.48138800000000004 Human Rock win rate of 0.5583493333333333 Human Brawler win rate of 0.5454146666666666 Human Guardian win rate of 0.5502653333333334 Human Resolute win rate of 0.5635066666666666 Human Knight win rate of 0.5281733333333334 Human Duelist win rate of 0.5462413333333332 Human Trained win rate of 0.5591373333333333 Human Sentinel win rate of 0.5630813333333331 Human Sage; win rate of 0.5625760000000001 Human Scholar win rate of 0.5675266666666665 Elf Brute win rate of 0.49723466666666666 Elf Warrior win rate of 0.4885746666666667 Elf Fighter win rate of 0.4844453333333334 Elf Pugilist win rate of 0.4800733333333334 Elf Confident win rate of 0.49645333333333364 Elf Rock win rate of 0.5810266666666664 Elf Brawler win rate of 0.5705453333333332 Elf Guardian win rate of 0.5646013333333334 Elf Resolute win rate of 0.5784266666666666 Elf Knight win rate of 0.5544066666666666 Elf Duelist win rate of 0.5589666666666666 Elf Trained win rate of 0.5763026666666667 Elf Sentinel win rate of 0.5620506666666665 Elf Sage; win rate of 0.5677786666666663 Elf Scholar win rate of 0.5756280000000001 Dwarf Brute win rate of 0.5618000000000002 Dwarf Warrior win rate of 0.5645173333333331 Dwarf Fighter win rate of 0.5638813333333331 Dwarf Pugilist win rate of 0.556556 Dwarf Confident win rate of 0.47634666666666686 Dwarf Rock win rate of 0.5669573333333333 Dwarf Brawler win rate of 0.5587373333333331 Dwarf Guardian win rate of 0.5543706666666666 Dwarf Resolute win rate of 0.5635866666666668 Dwarf Knight win rate of 0.5457266666666666 Dwarf Duelist win rate of 0.5530600000000001 Dwarf Trained win rate of 0.5634760000000002 Dwarf Sentinel win rate of 0.5584280000000001 Dwarf Sage; win rate of 0.5583173333333333 Dwarf Scholar win rate of 0.5607346666666667 Orc Brute win rate of 0.56668 Orc Warrior win rate of 0.5799026666666668 Orc Fighter win rate of 0.5787946666666665 Orc Pugilist win rate of 0.5621653333333332 Orc Confident win rate of 0.49034399999999995 Orc Rock win rate of 0.5888920000000002 Orc Brawler win rate of 0.581292 Orc Guardian win rate of 0.5638626666666665 Orc Resolute win rate of 0.49058399999999996 Orc Knight win rate of 0.5710200000000003 Orc Duelist win rate of 0.5648439999999999 Orc Trained win rate of 0.4891386666666666 Orc Sentinel win rate of 0.5586626666666666 Orc Sage; win rate of 0.474828 Orc Scholar win rate of 0.48909333333333344 Halfling Brute win rate of 0.4816106666666667 Halfling Warrior win rate of 0.4758760000000002 Halfling Fighter win rate of 0.48097466666666644 Halfling Pugilist win rate of 0.47813333333333324 Halfling Confident win rate of 0.48101333333333335 Halfling Rock win rate of 0.5639266666666665 Halfling Brawler win rate of 0.5631226666666669 Halfling Guardian win rate of 0.5578946666666666 Halfling Resolute win rate of 0.560949333333333 Halfling Knight win rate of 0.5577359999999998 Halfling Duelist win rate of 0.5629333333333332 Halfling Trained win rate of 0.5673106666666664 Halfling Sentinel win rate of 0.5680973333333335 Halfling Sage; win rate of 0.5603440000000001 Halfling Scholar win rate of 0.5558133333333332 0.545164888888889 Human Brute win rate of 0.4673653333333333 Human Warrior win rate of 0.47374666666666665 Human Fighter win rate of 0.45614000000000005 Human Pugilist win rate of 0.47575066666666677 Human Confident win rate of 0.385412 Human Rock win rate of 0.478128 Human Brawler win rate of 0.4545386666666668 Human Guardian win rate of 0.47497599999999984 Human Resolute win rate of 0.47370666666666655 Human Knight win rate of 0.4254453333333334 Human Duelist win rate of 0.4577573333333332 Human Trained win rate of 0.45527733333333337 Human Sentinel win rate of 0.49057733333333353 Human Sage; win rate of 0.4754080000000001 Human Scholar win rate of 0.4662240000000002 Elf Brute win rate of 0.387108 Elf Warrior win rate of 0.3921920000000001 Elf Fighter win rate of 0.37269199999999997 Elf Pugilist win rate of 0.3871746666666667 Elf Confident win rate of 0.3872960000000001 Elf Rock win rate of 0.4909386666666666 Elf Brawler win rate of 0.46479066666666646 Elf Guardian win rate of 0.473356 Elf Resolute win rate of 0.4756933333333334 Elf Knight win rate of 0.43364133333333343 Elf Duelist win rate of 0.4546186666666667 Elf Trained win rate of 0.457192 Elf Sentinel win rate of 0.4763253333333334 Elf Sage; win rate of 0.4669973333333332 Elf Scholar win rate of 0.46025466666666676 Dwarf Brute win rate of 0.4747239999999999 Dwarf Warrior win rate of 0.4871480000000001 Dwarf Fighter win rate of 0.4738279999999999 Dwarf Pugilist win rate of 0.4814706666666666 Dwarf Confident win rate of 0.39353066666666675 Dwarf Rock win rate of 0.4986306666666665 Dwarf Brawler win rate of 0.47912666666666676 Dwarf Guardian win rate of 0.48710266666666685 Dwarf Resolute win rate of 0.48707866666666677 Dwarf Knight win rate of 0.45438133333333314 Dwarf Duelist win rate of 0.47426000000000007 Dwarf Trained win rate of 0.4739800000000001 Dwarf Sentinel win rate of 0.49405200000000016 Dwarf Sage; win rate of 0.4830106666666665 Dwarf Scholar win rate of 0.474436 Orc Brute win rate of 0.46877333333333326 Orc Warrior win rate of 0.490610666666667 Orc Fighter win rate of 0.4763773333333334 Orc Pugilist win rate of 0.47466933333333333 Orc Confident win rate of 0.39748133333333324 Orc Rock win rate of 0.5109693333333337 Orc Brawler win rate of 0.4911693333333333 Orc Guardian win rate of 0.4858266666666669 Orc Resolute win rate of 0.4066333333333334 Orc Knight win rate of 0.46369866666666665 Orc Duelist win rate of 0.47428666666666647 Orc Trained win rate of 0.39166266666666666 Orc Sentinel win rate of 0.4832373333333332 Orc Sage; win rate of 0.3927359999999999 Orc Scholar win rate of 0.3959106666666667 Halfling Brute win rate of 0.3894413333333333 Halfling Warrior win rate of 0.3938693333333335 Halfling Fighter win rate of 0.3855373333333333 Halfling Pugilist win rate of 0.3993133333333333 Halfling Confident win rate of 0.38974000000000003 Halfling Rock win rate of 0.4871413333333335 Halfling Brawler win rate of 0.4724066666666667 Halfling Guardian win rate of 0.4815599999999999 Halfling Resolute win rate of 0.4740893333333333 Halfling Knight win rate of 0.4553519999999999 Halfling Duelist win rate of 0.4754733333333335 Halfling Trained win rate of 0.4671186666666668 Halfling Sentinel win rate of 0.49577466666666653 Halfling Sage; win rate of 0.477244 Halfling Scholar win rate of 0.46109999999999984 0.4548891733333333 With 25 hp and d12 damage, there is a bias towards doing what your race already does but more, a small bias for strength over skill, and a similar bias for defense over offense. Rock is dethroned by sentinel for races with a bonus to skill defense except for dwarves who also have a strength defense racial bonus which means dwarf rock is slightly better than dwarf sentinel (but not by very much) Skill offensive seems to be the weakest stat so maybe if some values are tweaked for archetypes and races with a skill offensive buff it'd balance that out. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdesarno 380 Share Posted August 30, 2023 Keep it up @Burnsiderthis has been overdue for WAY too long 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnsider 4542 Author Share Posted August 30, 2023 1 hour ago, NotEvilAtAll said: changing the system to d12 damage dice and 25 hp makes skill vs strength not as big a difference so that is the system to use if you want your skill build to be just as viable as strength builds Thanks for posting this, Jumper. Yeah, Jumper and I have been theory-crafting over DMs tonight and we think this is the answer. I expect to make an update to the main post tomorrow when I'm not sleepy. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingDingo 16994 Share Posted August 30, 2023 mfw have to decide between sweaty dice or sweaty clicks 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satinkira 5944 Share Posted August 30, 2023 11 minutes ago, ScreamingDingo said: mfw have to decide between sweaty dice or sweaty clicks honour Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnsider 4542 Author Share Posted August 30, 2023 2 hours ago, ScreamingDingo said: mfw have to decide between sweaty dice or sweaty clicks It's an optional system. If you don't like it, don't use it. There's a third path to this trolley. And honestly, given it's optional, why as a staff member, did you feel the need to troll it? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreamingDingo 16994 Share Posted August 30, 2023 31 minutes ago, Burnsider said: It's an optional system. If you don't like it, don't use it. There's a third path to this trolley. And honestly, given it's optional, why as a staff member, did you feel the need to troll it? because you can't give me warning points anymore 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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