Your View: Necromancy, Undead, and Everything In-Between

[Narthok 9213]

3 hours ago, DrakeHaze. said:

Idk just ask @NarthokI heard he is interested in dark magics currently, should probably just make him the lich king and see what happens.

just do this

 

On a more serious note. It is my view that necromancy should always be more of an antagonistic magic that another generic combat stim magic. Rather than following into the 'i am an invulnerable anime character' category necromancy in my opinion should be more of a cooperative / supportive type magic that involves more actually dead magic (necro-mancy). Hence it should be reformed towards actually raising the dead, creating soulbound constructs, reviving dreadknights / blood knights whatever they were called.

 

Necromancy clearly needs a rework, as it is its being hard gatekept by a tiny tiny tiny minority of players that don't really interact with the server in a meaningful way. At least not meaningful enough for something with the thematic potential of necromancy. The purpose of antagonism is to further the story / provide content. Necromancy should be tangible and present, even if it is in a subtle rumour mongering fashion regarding ghouls kidnapping people at the graveyard

 

Personally I'd prefer to see a number of lich lairs if not a necropolis but that's just my preference. As it stands the spook lair is an underground series of caves that you'll never see unless you're engaged in that very thin niche rp. While it is cool to have niche high level rp powers I still believe the purpose of said powers shouldn't be aggrandizement but rather content generation. In that sense this is less an issue with the magic proper and more an issue with necro players / leadership. If your group is low energy recruit some noobs or new blood.

 

In regards to what I've heard of Necromancy. Necromancy should be glass cannon summoner archetype imo, culminating in the obviously tankier and more imposing lich. There should be entire cults centered around liches and necromancers. I think players often get over focused on undead / necro type rp and assume there can't be any living descendants involved. Imo most necromancers should be alive / cultists of death. Beyond that, in terms of the magic I've heard that it is generally a question of creating dumb unthinking slaves. I think it would be much more interesting to create more cognizant / sentient creatures like wights / dreadknights etc who are able to rp out the anguish of their cursed revival / enact vengeance / confront the existential reality of their existence. There are many cool things you could do with a bound soul put in a suit of armour or a revived barrow wight. Extremely loyal barrow wight / spiteful / hateful dreadknight who is always seeking to undermine his master djinn style.

 

Hope you ***** do a full necro rewrite. Cheers.

 

[Nozgoth 2897]

37 minutes ago, Lhindir_ said:

Lotc is very, very hostile towards players who play darkmages. @TreeSmoothieisnt actually using her magic to do arson/the like, and realistically any random bandit can do the same thing. these sorts of 'random acts of chaos' dont give anything to the necromancers and or darkmages, and any actual dark attempts are immediately snuffed out to the point where there is literally no reason to actually use the magic openly and get caught because it just immediately means *death. 

 

Hence why undead and necromancers recently have, Very deliberately, been very, very secretive. We're not loot balloons to get blown up by protags lol. 

 

exactly, the attitude of the general playerbase must be able to handle the conflict.

[Kholibrii 978]

I don't really have a "spook" character, so I guess I might not be the target audience of this post, but I'm still responding... I have been active on the server for roughly a year now(maybe I'll escape on day) and I've had very few interactions with any Dark Mages or undead. I didn't even realize they existed until I had been on the server for months. Since I started a new character in March I've been lucky enough to see them more often and have some interactions which I've thoroughly enjoyed, but it still isn't too often. From everything I've seen I believe the main enemy of people trying to play Dark Mages and undead or just Antagonists in general is Metagamers.

 

We all know there are those types of players who seem to froth at the mouth at the simple thought of being able to metagame an antagonist. It's hard for someone to be able to do antagonistic RP when the person they attack, kill, torture, drain, sacrifice, etc ends up telling every one of their friends about it OOCly. It's way too common that you have someone "randomly" show up at the cite of RP when they have no reason to be there. A lot of people can't handle RP not going their way and it goes unpunished so often that they think it's okay when it isn't.

 

If Metagamers were actually punished then perhaps it would be better, but the rarely receive punishment. 99% of the time when you make a report of metagaming to moderation it falls solely on your shoulders to be able to prove there was metagaming beyond a reasonable doubt, which is HARD. If moderation were more open to looking into logs and performing investigations to help reporters have enough evidence then perhaps it would get better, but right now the majority of metagamers are walking away without any punishment and going on to do the exact same thing a month later.

[FlemishSupremacy 4930]

I think that one of the most important things to make any player antagonism magic work is an incentive to commit villainy. Back in the day, necromancers could get their life force from plant life or farm animals. Rather than forcing them to go out and commit atrocities to fuel their magic, they could just sit in their local frost witch ice cream parlor and bust out their powers to defend what is essentially just their goth themed slice of life hub. 

 

Perhaps it'd be warranted to make Necromancers and co more powerful, but the only means to get that power is to go and kill/drain unwilling victims.

[rukio 8910]

52 minutes ago, Lhindir_ said:

Lotc is very, very hostile towards players who play darkmages. @TreeSmoothieisnt actually using her magic to do arson/the like, and realistically any random bandit can do the same thing. these sorts of 'random acts of chaos' dont give anything to the necromancers and or darkmages, and any actual dark attempts are immediately snuffed out to the point where there is literally no reason to actually use the magic openly and get caught because it just immediately means *death. 

 

Hence why undead and necromancers recently have, Very deliberately, been very, very secretive. We're not loot balloons to get blown up by protags lol. 

I am the only protag you need baby.

 

That said, it is a pain in the ass when everyone is out to metagame that you're a big bad spooky lad. The issue though is that if we buff a dark magic suddenly the only holy magic goes "Maaan but we're still so weak." 

 

I think the ideal situation would be to have some of the more experienced players from each group for dark magic and some of the more experienced Paladins sit down and discuss how we would like for our dynamic to work, checks and balances and counters and buffs against each other, since, lets be real, the holy v dark war is the only war that actually matters. 

 

((But this requires Paladins being active too- but maybe that'll be around the corner?

[HurferDurfer1 2584]

from my inside sources, necro ******* blows rn and not being run well

[Zarsies 6027]

I have so much to say but can't put it to words. I'll PM you sometime.

[BrandNewKitten 2788]

Necromancy should have stronger interactions with the world and more of them. Balance combat spells but make rituals and the like overpowered. There should be heavy incentive to be an active necromancer that actually does things. It can take a long time to build a plot so finding ways to incentivize or speed up that process would be my go to with a rewrite. 

[ScreamingDingo 16990]

A culmination of having an undertuned magic, a victim-complex centric community, general lethargy and the inability to act against anything in the community without jumping through hoops are essentially why necromancy has fell into the permanent abyss of inactivity.

[squakhawk 7887]

you really shouldve listed this as not an st official thing 

 

but here's some factual opinions and epic thought from the lore manager's perspective after doing this for what, a yr and a half now

 

 

I'll preface my thoughts with this.

1) One of the primary reasons modern necromancy exists, is due to the second grandfathering. After Dardonas left due to huge irl obligations and Sliceman fell off the face of the planet, myself, and a few others, were grandfathered to Tier 5 and given TAs- Students of Dardonas, for the most part. I was given the option to shelf necro, but given it hadn't even got off its feet- I wanted to help it, and so I taught a few students, who in turn taught a few students, and are effectively the fathers of modern necromancy.

2) After dealing with probably one of the most tumultuous periods of lore pre, during, and post loregames as manager and not, I've got a lot of speaking power on the subject and have a lot to say- I'll detail further below. 

 

 

 

Let's begin with obvious issue. The current necro lore is problematic, yes. It's two most glaring issues are the inconsistency between the guide and the lore, which has spawned countless confusions, and the poorly written Simulacra which makes Liches and Darkstalkers tedious, and rare. Those two aside, let's dive a bit further.

 

 

Necromancy is without doubt one of the strongest magics on the server. Singlehandedly with corpsecrafting, being able to have something akin to an undead golem-olog, and a humanoid- both of which are capable of having multiple appendages, fully customizable weaponry and armour, and are absolutely unaffected in any notable way by Aurum or Holymagic. While one may not play a "Swordsman" necromancer, they very well may be accompanied by additional darkstalker(s), which while tedious to make, are still additional capable undead.

 

I draw a lot of lateral comparisons between Necromancy and Mysticism. While Mysticism has more strength in player-controlled Eidola, these Eidola have significant drawbacks and weaknesses completely unfound in Necromancers, their undead, and their creations. Mysticism, while hosting a more focused lore, has performed significantly more in a far shorter amount of time than Necromancy could ever hope for. Consistent and numerous amounts of player conflict, inter-magic conflict, and noteriety, Mystics have done what Necromancy was meant to do, without even attempting to do so. Necromancy, in the entirety of it's iteration, had one major instance of player terrorism- in which while indeed, the sore players involved did attempt to metagame and ruin the players (Going so far as to propose rules that exclude certain playerbases at large from having villainy performed against them, even when it was OOCly consented by the players), and indeed that did put a dent in Necromancy's momentum- When the material incentive (lifeforce) was dismissed due to now knowing Necromancers could drain one another, the incentive to interact with players was gone.

 

Necromancy lore allows for rituals to thin the veil of dead and undead, has huge cultural tie-ins with Rh'thoreans and their roleplay, references to The Red Faith in it's modern dogma and to wreak havoc- yet, it hasn't happened.

 

 

Now, let's look past Necromancers, into the playerbases.

 

While mostly involved in Oren, and many in said nation having a deeply flawed concept of magic and it's interaction upon the server (as seen with multiple instances of certain darkmages in the nation being metagamed and powergamed against), alongside the issue of a highly outdated idea of magics (With some going so far as to say it takes a long time to learn magic, or that they may get "one shot" by spells which don't exist), it isn't impossible. While the headache is indeed annoying, the ST have taken a much harder stance upon metagaming and powergaming, both in and out of magic, and have cooperated with moderation multiple times on punishing so. We've worked tirelessly to make sure any lore is played with and against fairly, and justly. While still we bump into issues, there have been significant improvements- and with written it "Forget-me" clauses in Necromancy, there is not much of an excuse as to why there has been no roleplay, particularly considering how other playerbases have succeeded to come through so- again, notably Mystics. Even so, there is always the rest of the map to interact with.

 

 

 

A lot of people are at fault. Flam, for accepting an incomplete and unfinished lorepiece. Some playerbases and select players, who've repeatedly posed issue directly to Necromancy, but antagonist roleplay at large. Necromancers, for having a functional and opportunity-having lorepiece which enables them to be highly powerful villains with multiple methods of enacting terror (Plague, raids, draining, so on), who simply haven't. I've been looking personally a bit further into what could be fixed.

 

 

 

 

Now, what could be fixed?

 

I'll begin off the bat with a question and answer that seemingly comes up for any problematic or struggling lorepiece.

Rewriting it won't solve the core problems.

We have, and I have, seen multiple times in my tenure and under my management, that rewrites don't solve problems. I've noticed many trends, of which most I'll describe in an upcoming Story Project to be unveiled in the next week or so, but many trends which indicate repeat problems. Rewriting a lore is the immediate answer many playerbases have to magics struggling with activity, power, theme, and so on. 

 

Sure, a rewrite will iron out the inconsistencies with the guide and the lore, sure it might even make Simulacra a bit more interesting and easier access. But, the real issue lies within this-

Necromancers already can, and will even in a rewrite, perform villainy and be successful and interesting antagonists.

Modifications, while bearing drawbacks, allow for interesting niches and specifications. Black Alchemy has potions interesting and unique to it, practically re-written by Mordu so that it could function in modern alchemy. Maledictions allow for unique encounters and different ways to approach magic that isn't *casts spell. 

 

Simply put, the basis if all there. When people think Necromancers, I'll even go to my favourite two Arthas and Kel'Thuzad- they plagued and poisoned grain and water supplies (you can do that), you can summon the dead en masse (with groups of necromancers, you can do that), you can drain the populace of life and raise undead servitors, commune with the dead and so much more - The basis, the tools, are all there. It is simply by fault of Necromancers, and their antagonizing groups, that they haven't been utilized. A rewrite, if anything, would serve to temporarily (if at all), boost activity cultwise, which we aren't looking for since that has been necromancer rp for over a year, and perhaps that would be the extent of it.

 

 

What necromancers need is a shift in leadership. Hell, even to split. To un-pk, requires a few friends- indeed, but regardless you will still, and always, be able to ressurrect. The goals of necromancers, to antagonized, to terrorize, shouldn't be solely incentivized by material gain- it should, as with the magic's utilization, matter upon the character, the cult, their ideals and dogma, their ambitions and wants. The Necromancers need to spread further, break the iron-clique they have formed unless it is broken for them, to use their magic and their characters to what they should be, what they want to be- not what they are. The magic does not make the character, nor does the magic play itself. Nor will it ever. It is dependant on driven players with interesting and developing characters who are not afraid to lose, to be involved in the story, to- even if they die- simply respawn, pick up their tools, and go at it again.

 

A character which sits with the magic and simply waits to be called upon, reactively rather than proactively, provides and adds nothing but to be a background NPC, and when that is what the magic has come to- a dream of "What could be", it serves no purpose. This is what necromancy is right now. What could be. On a personal level, on a player level, and on a staff level, I want to do everything in my power to make it a simple-

What is.

[drfate786 1639]

There's a lack of abilities to convert players into playable CA's while having actual antagonistic abilities for those wishing to be antagonists. Those CA's have to be meaningful and not random murder hobos that exist solely to kill and be special but also can't be hard to obtain.

 

Simply put, the only way a player can interact with a necromancer is to become a cultist/slave that constantly IRP begs for the magic or be a protagonist that actively hunts and kills them. A necromancer doesn't have enough options for pawns, they can't simply convert that protagonist into a tool for his own use.

 

In the last iteration, ghouls only became an "issue" because two necromancers were intent on getting the magic shelved and saw ghoul spamming as a way to do it. Rather then blacklist the person in question and launch a proper investigation they put an outright freeze on ghoul apps and punished everyone. This wasn't even an issue with the magic itself either but the way ghouls worked as they had to kill others in order to become Darkstalkers/Liches and had very little agency past killing and consuming.

 

Ghouls had nowhere to go and were hunted no matter where they went, often being reliant on a Necromancer that was never online to interact with them.

 

In all honesty, re-introduce playable undead and simply make it so that they start off as a "mindless" ghoul that is bound to the Necromancer's will based on how long they've been dead. In warhammer for example, zombies can slowly turn into skeletons and then eventually will become Graveguard over the course of hundreds of years. They gain more intelligence and agency the longer they've been dead/undead due to the winds of death accumulating in their bodies.

 

An example of how this would work:

 

Players go hunting for a necromancer, find one in some lair or house and attempt to apprehend/kill them. The necromancer gets lucky and kills the two players and offers them a deal in OOC to become playable undead. Player A rejects and goes back to the CT, player B accepts and the Necromancer conducts a quick ritual to raise the player's body. The player fills out a CA and the LT is notified.

 

The risen player starts off as a "mindless" zombie dependent on the Necromancer for orders, they would follow the Necromancer around and simply wander mindlessly killing and eating anything they come across until killed if no Necromancer is present. Over an IRL week they would transition to the next phase where-in they would begin to regain some shred of their intelligence and eventually learn to do basic interactions, as if being born again. This would work identically to ghosts in many ways.

 

Additionally, I would make it so ghosts can be turned into skeletal undead variants if a Necromancer finds one. This would work through a binding ritual in which the Necromancer imprisons the ghost inside a shard or phylactery of some sort and then binds it to a skeletal vessel. This means a player who's body is destroyed would still be viable for conversion and could even skip the initial stage if they've been dead long enough.

 

Tldr; Make it so necromancers can make ghouls again but have the ghouls automatically transition to stronger undead variants over time or based on how long they've been dead. Make it so that if the undead is destroyed the necromancer must repair and raise what's left of them or give them a new body. Have these player undead also be ghosts so that if their body is destroyed they will simply become ghosts until the Necromancer makes a new body for them and binds them to it through a pseudo-phylactery. 

 

Make lairs more important if a Necromancer wishes to be an antag and give it benefits for being in a biome corrupted by the Necromancer. Make the plaguelands great again and make it so large undead player groups can form.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by drfate786

[Narthok 9213]

4 hours ago, Vangroth said:

Darkstalker Sentinel glares up from the hell Flam's shelf sent him down to

 

Jokes aside, i don't think that undead will ever be more than the occassional pest or something for people to expect stubling into town. Necromancers? Maybe. But darkstalkers or ghouls are stuck. No matter if one's to play a for some reason peaceful darkstalker or a hostile one, due to how LOTC is, everyone wants to be a hero. Let a wyvern into a city, people won't flee but charge at it. Same goes for the undead, most of the time they're forever stuck existing for the entertainment of others as some sort of player-ran event and little else.

 

Even necromancers themselves don't exactly do much other than either create more undead, teach a friend or two the magic or  make gigantic schemes that mirrior necromancy's origin that never go anywhere. Ascended are gone for lesser reasons despite being awfully similiar in OOC origin. To sum it up, from a IC standpoint, you'd see more voidal horrors be tollerated than any type of undead, rendering what they can do quite limited when it comes to roleplay. I've played only my darkstalker up until flam's shelf, while my character was rather bloodthirsty, more often than not he fought in self defence because someone wanted the bragging rights of taking down a darkstalker.

Honestly the solution is to just keep killing people to attack you until they learn to be scared. This might require the recruitment of a few sympathetic homies willing to rp as skeletons etc

4 hours ago, DrakeHaze. said:

Been here 10 years and the only necromancy that I've witnessed outside of Events and antags is when Lhindir walked into Providence with his Gravelord name above his head. I'm not too sure what my view on Necromancy and undead stuff is, I think its cool and a fantasy staple so its bound to attract players both positively and negatively. I think undead playable creatures and the like was another way to add more players into the fold of necromancy without giving them the magic, like a trial I guess.

The thing about promotion is generally what happens everywhere. Players in an army for example climb ranks and get bored eventually if their 'progress' becomes limited or reaches a conclusion. Difference between a necromancer and some army goon is that the army guy can pk his persona and basically do it all over again with a fresh coat of paint whereas someone with magic can't because they'd have to 'learn' the magic all over again for half a year to reach a similar point in power where they can comfortably produce conflict.

Idk if necromancy had pk clauses or what not but I think it'd be neat if a T5 necromancer that PKs whether through a clause or not, have the option to attain T2 or T3 Necromancy on a new fresh persona through some dark magic mumbo jumbo reasoning. Would likely ease the boredom with regards to promotions when there is an option for a new coat of paint. 

I feel like the way magic is handled on LoTC in general is just incredibly lame. At first, 6+ months to master a specific magic seems fine on paper. However, what these restraints on magics don't take into account is that its not 6 months of active magical roleplay but a handful of training sessions and rarely any magical conflict. Additionally, since magic is such a huge IRL timesink for power rewards ,players are HEAVILY inclined to never PK their persona and just stack applicable magic apps until they have the equivalent magical prowess of Xerath.

Sorry for the rant in that last part but since the topic is about a magic I just had to share a bit of my opinion on magic in general.


What I want to see from necromancy? I want to see dark magics have an actual opportunity to achieve some sort of position of antagonist. I'd like to see necromancer players be able to gather resources, magics and create LITERAL naxxramas to rain plague and undeath upon farming villages. I want necromancer and undead players to have crazy goals like that and for it to be achievable through whatever system possible. Feel like the lifespan of necromancers should correlate to this sort of storyline, where a small cabal gathers in power and attempts some unbelievable feat towards the end. Either defeated or victorious, at least SOMETHING big and noteworthy happens. Necromancers and Undead should be very ambitious and at the peak of their power should be very confident and public. There needs to be a gameplay loop to keep all players interested, having an ENDGAME to magics just literally ends their gameplay most of the time. There should be a cycle rather than some linear progression. 

Idk just ask @NarthokI heard he is interested in dark magics currently, should probably just make him the lich king and see what happens.

completely agree w all the Drakehaze has said about magic. Learning times should be reduced etc. Magic on lotc is too sciencey and not fantastical enough. I dont think Flam's loregames really fixed anything

3 hours ago, Lhindir_ said:

Hence why undead and necromancers recently have, Very deliberately, been very, very secretive. We're not loot balloons to get blown up by protags lol. 

you are actually. it should be hard. But in the end your characters are antagonists and are there to lose.

[drfate786 1639]

1 minute ago, Narthok said:

Honestly the solution is to just keep killing people to attack you until they learn to be scared. This might require the recruitment of a few sympathetic homies willing to rp as skeletons etc

 

That's basically what we did with Molech's Folly before the LT took a **** on Necromancy and banned ghoul apps. The issue was that Hunter and Ggt were killing and raising everyone they came across into ghouls and having them do bandit RP on the roads. I was the only one actively trying to lure idiots into the lair so I could bring them into the dungeon and do dungeon RP with them before they would be killed or used. 

 

It didn't help that the only common way to make a ghoul into a darkstalker was for the ghoul or Necro to essentially go and murder hobo a dozen people, all the while the ghoul couldn't die once or they'd have to start over. The Necromancer also had to conduct a ritual to enable the ghoul to do this or the ghoul couldn't collect "soul shadows" to ascend.

 

Often, they like to blame the lore or the players without really looking at it from a holistic point of view. Either it's the players or the lore or both and instead of coming up with an actual solution that makes everyone happy.. They just hit exterminatus.

 

This pretty much explains how the LT deal with any form of issue with regards to magic lore:

 

 

 

What's this? There's 20 ghoul apps being made EVERY DAY?! HERESY! PURGE PURGE PURGE! *Slaps the Exterminatus button*.

[Narthok 9213]

3 hours ago, TreeSmoothie said:

Somewhat true. Protags make me weep, but I've been able to get RP focused on Xionism & ungabunga magic out during most of the encounters. If I'm doing something mundane like Arsonry or Banditry, I add spice to it. Fading, Hindering, preaching Xionism like an uncle talking politics at thanksgiving. People've gotten better with taking it IRP, so I've been more trusting toward people during my events. Call me a fool for it, but even if it means my character's PK, it means my character's PK. I'm here for my own enjoyment, but the role of a dark mage is to be the ""antagonist"" in most cases, and that's why they're given their power in magic (vs. a normal evocation user). This is why certain things were added and amended, like Mysticism's Scavenging ritual (Leaves victim with RP of trauma, ethreal wounds, keeps them alive and the Shepard still gets what they need without being metagamed on, through memory erasure). Lots of people have tried to metagame, but I'm still here in (mostly) one piece. 

 

It's logical to want to be secretive, but to not do something with a dark magic for ages (months +) and only use it for a group's own benefit, is just greedy. ((This tangent isn't about anyone/any group, just an "if" scenario. Necros are cool and I am surely not being held at gunpoint to add this))

this is the perfect antag mindset and I wish more people approached the game like this

2 minutes ago, drfate786 said:

 

That's basically what we did with Molech's Folly before the LT took a **** on Necromancy and banned ghoul apps. The issue was that Hunter and Ggt were killing and raising everyone they came across into ghouls and having them do bandit RP on the roads. I was the only one actively trying to lure idiots into the lair so I could bring them into the dungeon and do dungeon RP with them before they would be killed or used. 

 

It didn't help that the only common way to make a ghoul into a darkstalker was for the ghoul or Necro to essentially go and murder hobo a dozen people, all the while the ghoul couldn't die once or they'd have to start over. The Necromancer also had to conduct a ritual to enable the ghoul to do this or the ghoul couldn't collect "soul shadows" to ascend.

 

Often, they like to blame the lore or the players without really looking at it from a holistic point of view. Either it's the players or the lore or both and instead of coming up with an actual solution that makes everyone happy.. They just hit exterminatus.

 

This pretty much explains how the LT deal with any form of issue with regards to magic lore:

 

 

 

What's this? There's 20 ghoul apps being made EVERY DAY?! HERESY! PURGE PURGE PURGE! *Slaps the Exterminatus button*.

again this is less an issue with the magic and more an issue with the fact that GGT is the most annoying road bandit on the server and has the magical capacity to summon 35 goons from the shadow realm instantly. BUT, despite being annoying his undead ghoul bandits did probably scare people. Ideally he would rp more and provide better content than "HALT" > click > maybe turn into ghoul.

 

Murder hoboing is bad. Tree mentioned a method mystics used that doesn't kill people. Might be worth investigating for a necro rework.

[drfate786 1639]

1 hour ago, ScreamingDingo said:

A culmination of having an undertuned magic, a victim-complex centric community, general lethargy and the inability to act against anything in the community without jumping through hoops are essentially why necromancy has fell into the permanent abyss of inactivity.

 

The victim complex is very retarded I won't lie. However, shelving an entire magic because one person created 20-40 ghoul apps and then took a **** on the magic through extensive power-gaming and retardation isn't an excuse to shelf it. Especially when it was done to get it shelved in the first place. It also doesn't excuse the way they reacted when this wanton abuse happened and the only reason it even happened in the first place was because of the reasons you mentioned above.

 

They antagonized their own clique, people in that clique tried and succeeded in getting the magic shelved and then those same players who contributed to this or fed the victim narrative got necro again in this iteration and repeated the same **** they did previously. Edit: With many of them also getting gassed by the others at the start of grandfathering/learning.

 

What's really needed here is a re-write that allows for player conversion and more player interaction while also giving it over to new contenders as oppose to people who've had the magic for years and already know what they're going to do with it.

Edited June 1, 2021 by drfate786