The Cursed

[Hakiki 36]

So it's come to the decision that Cursed Descendants can no longer become Templars.

 

I wished to open up this debate as I personally see a lot of flaw in this design. It has nothing to do with it making sense. I personally see that it makes sense that aenguls would not like Demons, however there's a lot of controversy. Cursed are not Demons, they are people who have for one reason or another, have a strain on their soul which more than likely comes from Naz.

 

There is incentive for a Cursed Child to become evil due to being able to go faster down the Naz path, however this does not mean that they should be barred from other Deific magics (Other than Shamanism and Druidism). A cursed becoming proven to themselves to uphold the virtues of religion and other deific teachings could potentially be a very good story line and fill a niche. Completely blocking it off gives the feeling that making a Cursed means you must make an evil character (I personally know this is not true, but it can be an impression that is left). To prove ones self to an order or to their God that they were raised to be loyal to, just for the story to turn their back to them and everything was for naught. It feels REALLY bad.

 

I believe that they should not be barred completely. Just some suggestions, perhaps be given harsher trials to prove themselves that their intentions are in the right place or make the Curse cleanse-able for people who HAVE proven themselves, or the connection itself does it. Or maybe that a Cursed could go down a different path. Light and Dark is not left and right, its a grey area of morality and perspective. People who are of the light can still do evil things and dark can do good.

 

The main point is that Cursed are not Demons and therefore should not be guided down to become evil, as there is already incentive. As a Redemption of the Soul is a very real story!

Edited May 10 by Hakiki
Grammar

[Wizry 486]

2 hours ago, Hakiki said:

Cursed are not Demons, they are people who have for one reason or another, have a strain on their soul which more than likely comes from Naz.

"The Aengul of Enlightenment merged with Malchediael’s courageous and spiteful self, causing his mind to splinter into an incoherent rage. As a result, Malchediael now roams the heavens fighting the likes of Voidal Behemoths and countless demons for the sake of mortals."

 

This makes less sense when we read this. They have a strain on their soul that comes directly from someone who is influenced by Iblees, meaning that Malchediael would probably be angry and find them unworthy - because his head is not on straight.

[Tav 1449]

While I do agree that it's unfortunate for Paladinism and Templarism to be barred from Cursed Children, the roleplay story it limits reaches the same amount of the story you can play. I'm honestly surprised that Templarism was accessible to them for so long, but there's a lot of iffy parts in demon lore that I've seen getting fixed up so that's good. 

Cursed Children, most the time, are created from Naztherak wanting to screw people over. You're created into ugly, infernal being with a permanent mark on your soul, which causes you to be blocked from the magics mentioned above; This adds to the misfortunes of a Cursed Child, which is the whole point of their existence. To be descendants treated so poorly by something they didn't choose. 
As for the story, said Cursed Child could possibly spend the rest of their life hunting down the Naztherak that cursed them, or endlessly kill Darkspawn for validation from Paladins and Templars which they probably will never get. I personally really like characters that hold ideals/jobs of a certain magic without having the magic itself, feels more realistic. 

Also Cursed Children are OOC-consented, so I hope there's not much of a loss in the community for this change? I'd like to think so. I think Cursed Children turned via ritual possibly having a way to uncurse themselves would be really cool, like a corcitura being healed by paladins, because I too am someone who's very indecisive and regrets decisions that I thought were so smart at the time. Obviously this would need harsh setbacks though ! :p

[Morigung-oog 2509]

Soul corruption, the fact that the soul belongs to the pentacle which both Malchedial and Xan are directly opposing. It's like a voidal horror learning druidism. It makes sense IMO.

 

And if you choose not to go down a good path purely because you can't inherently get stuff like templarism and paladin, then you're probably not even trying to play a morally good character in the first place. You'd just be going down an evil route, just in a different way.

 

The narrative is always more important than the powers.

[Xarkly 12959]

You don't need a specific magic to pursue a story in which a cursed character overcomes their troubled backstory to become 'good'.

 

Magic does not define your character.

[Hakiki 36]

As I said, it does make sense. I also think magics do not define a character.  A more simple way of stating what I am saying is that I believe their should be SOME way to save or redeem your soul in a manner of speaking. I even stated that the magic is not needed to do the right thing.

[ellielove15 312]

As the person who tried to clarify this exact thing and inadvertently caused this decision to come down from ST, I think that the decision to have limitations on certain magics makes sense within the LOTC universe. The Aenguls are much closer to Grimdark fantasy than they are to classical fantasy. They aren't good and they aren't upstanding in terms of descendant moral standards. Even the entities that DO accept cursed children aren't much better, like the Aspects and Spirits. It makes sense that Xan for example rejects Cursed Children. He is the epitome of Order for its own sake, and is often considered a tyrant from those that aren't in service to him. He instantly smote a guy for insulting him, how do you think he would feel about giving his power to someone whose soul was claimed by the High Hells? Malchedael is even worse, as others have spoken about in reply to this post. He's basically in a furious rage against anything even REMOTELY infernal, voidal or dark. Of course his power would not wish to touch those that are claimed by the infernal. 

 

I think having very grim consequences for either being captured and transformed, or being born with such an affliction really gives depth to the characters that are affected by it. They aren't like DND tieflings, there is a genuine soul-sickness that they have to wrestle with (If they know about its full effects). It's up to the characters within this community to show how they deal with such a grim fate both in their current life and in the next. And perhaps this trial and tribulation can push such a people to come together and figure out how to survive and maybe even secure their own afterlives in whatever ways they wish. They could even just... live life despite such a damnation. The world's your oyster! 

[lemonke 1907]

Firstly and foremost, I would like to say that only in LOTC you have things like tieflings being utterly complicated for some reason. This way of making things isn’t always fun, especially if you put in some restrictions that don't add layers, just walls. If x god is like that, it isn't because the god chose it. If x god does y, it isn’t a decision of its own, but the people behind it. Also, if the cursed children's marks get removed through a divine connection, I don't know why some gods wouldn’t take advantage of it. It’s a way to cuck Ixli. After all, if they are connected to a deity magic, after their death the mark of Ixli does indeed get removed. Hence, the x god's domain claims it, no?

 

Secondly, you can say, MUUH, IT'S A CONSEQUENCE OF BEING A CURSED CHILD. However, you are simply a normal dude with mutations without things in-between, and you may still learn druidism and shamanism, but they aren’t the same. I don't understand why only templarism was taken down, though. This is a fantasy server; it's not unusual that people want to play Paladins Tieflings, or similar things lmao. Okay, magic doesn't define our characters as per usual, but these magics are goals, and again, this is a fantasy server. Don't be surprised if people want magic for their characters or some more common archetypes that only LOTC is against.

 

Furthermore, this lore has been around here for a while, and for months I have been planning things with another person's character (who is a cursed child) to make them become a templar and step away from dark stuff. Now, all these months of progress have been thrown into the bin by one simple red-line, which I and this person found out through a discussion in a private discord, and now our IC stuff is just "I cannot do that."  Magic may not be what defines a character, but it could be the final journey for someone since all this server has to really offer is either magic or nation RP.

 

Sure, you can say whatever consequences you want, but this Redline wasn't here before, and again, these dudes aren't demons or have incredible powers. 

 

Plus, I can say that ST should actually let people choose rather than enforcing tiny things, such as the curse getting removed if they get connected to precise magic and the like. The implented redline doesn't really add to anything, it only furthers the narrative that these tieflings should be all evil and away from holy-esque magic rather than giving them an opportunity to show they are worthy of a holy blessing. It could've been something more dynamic, such as the tiefling proving their worth to x god or something. Something that drives them further into that path and gives character development, because these lore pieces should be pushing the character on a path of development and not being another target to kill IC because they have horns.

 

These are my 2 cents. That red line is just limiting. You have such a FA with little to no advantages, impossible to cure (when it should have a cure), that’s barred to the most common of fantasy (dnd) archetypes.

[Heart_Spam 303]

Hello. I play a cursed child. One born cursed, if it makes a difference.

 

The loss of Templarism further hinders the possibility for cursed children to find redemption, if they seek it, and pushes devils into the “all devils should be evil” niche. Templarism has been accessible to cursed children for years and I find it odd that only now, with irp strife surrounding cursed children (involving the naz, the Canonist church, the KOS decrees, etc) that its compatibility has been removed. 

 

I agree with many things Hakiki said in the original post and will elaborate with my own perspective.

 

• “Malchediael fights demons.” Yes. But, not to sound like a broken record, devils aren’t demons. Cursed children, by lore, are descendants with physical mutations. The only difference is the stain on their soul. This stain, by lore, is removed if the devil is connected to another deity. After its removal, they are literally just descendants who look a little different.

 

• Inferi are demons, their purpose is to climb the ranks. Cursed children are not. They can climb the ranks if they choose, and it makes sense that Malchediael would reject those. It does not make sense that Malchediael would reject those who sincerely seek redemption. Why not spit in Ixris’ face?

 

• “Just don’t play the magic.” This one genuinely confuses me. I agree with this: magic does not define a character. It shouldn’t. However, if the rp is put in, if magic is in LOTC for incentives and character development, to add to your character, then why not seek one out? Everyone and their mother holds some sort of magic. Templarism has some excellent rp virtues, boons, and banes to explore through character development. Yes, cursed children could just follow the tenants without actually holding the magic, but then where is the incentive? Follow the order only to still be rejected on death and sent to the High Hells? No cursed child seeking redemption is going to take on such a hopeless struggle.

 

To keep the option open for devils to become templars is to facilitate some excellent options for redemption and for cursed children to not just use the deity as an escape from the High Hells, but to foster a hope and a way to fight against the naztherak that cursed them. It offers an option for purpose outside of the narrow ring devils are typically looped into. 

 

I, personally, have rped internal struggles, the desire to combat the inherent “evil” cursed children are structured towards, and storylines based on turning the curse into a blessing. I do not have templarism on this character, but I had hoped my character would one day prove themselves worthy enough of receiving it as the final step towards redemption.

[femurlord 2591]

Honestly, cursed children deserve it. Your soul is offered up to Ixris, second to Iblees, the literally overseer of Hell that permanently taints your soul and claims it. Deific connections are pledging your soul to a deity for their magic, where you will be their's upon PK. How can you offer what you don't have? This is not the tiefling DnD experience

[Hakiki 36]

A Cursed is required to have OOC consent, this is true. However, if people continuously say no to the Naz, what's the point if that's the case? Naz are there to cause conflict. It also introduces character conflict which can introduce hurdles. I can see this as being fodder to always so No to the curse which then it just becomes something that's never used except in rare cases 

 

This is not D&D, that is correct, however these characters should be able to find a way to save themselves from what they do not want IC. They should not be completely punished for giving the Naz the pleasure of doing what they do. 

 

Very much an 'Are you worth saving?' kind of story. 🙂

Edited May 11 by Hakiki

[ellielove15 312]

8 hours ago, lemonke said:

Sure, you can say whatever consequences you want, but this Redline wasn't here before, and again, these dudes aren't demons or have incredible powers. 

Honestly considering the changes by ST, I think that the Children of Ixris need a rewrite. I think that there can be some changes to their physicality or other things if templarism is going to be taken away. Perhaps a small boon of the infernal, like being resistant (not immune) to malflame, or having a more implicit knowledge of the infernal language rather than just being able to learn it. Some give/take with an IRP lore reason as to why cursed children can't learn such a magic anymore would be a bit easier to swallow, and I wouldn't care either way.

[amongus 361]

On 5/10/2024 at 6:28 PM, Hakiki said:

Light and Dark is not left and right, its a grey area of morality and perspective. People who are of the light can still do evil things and dark can do good.

 

will try my best not to repeat xark ellie femur (i agree w/ all of them)

while folks of 'light' and 'dark' can do things associated with the other, it doesn't change that deities of all sorts view the other of the two as not OK. i don't think it's supposed to mean they can't be 'redeemed,' but more that the deities themselves don't believe ixris' children can prove any use to their cause (or do believe they are actively detrimental). LOTC's setting in regard to deity stuff is a lot more harsh/unforgiving.

 

on a more OOC side of things, the RP avenues for a cursed child to work on the side of holies exist already. don't need a magic app to be a xannite or fight against evildoers. magic's cool, but maybe the player can focus a part of their character into trying to understand why they're seen as unfit or doing their best to prove themselves to their god w/o the need of red font color on a forum post. it's limiting but in a way that fosters more RP than not. best thing to do is to make fun out of it.

 

and despite what folks have said earlier, the main aspects of tiefling larp are given to the player directly: succumb to vile temptation and accursed heritage or push against it by your own means :D

[ScreamingDingo 17219]

You’re locked out of only the two most deranged deities and that’s it. You can take ANY other deific magic, you can’t just can’t take the super holy purging evil ones. Malchadiael and Xan are ones that would purge cities if it led to their goals, a singular offspring of Moz Strimoza is not worth their time connecting.

 

This stops a singular avenue of roleplay of not being a Templar, and it’s very justified as to why they’d say no. People say “Devils” aren’t “Demons”. But they are influenced and melded physically by Moz Strimzoas influence (and Ixris). They aren’t immortal ladder climbers, but they are something where these deities can be picky about their followers.

 

 

it’s fine to not be able to play karlach reclassed as a paladin. Make that part of your roleplay, and it normally means that those entities will slowly edge towards being evil from discrimination and that creates much more roleplay than letting you play a tiefling so u can be cute and have horns.

 

 

(And if people argue that the world is not cruel, remember that all elves and dwarves that don’t align themselves to a deity end up in permanent purgatory in the ebriates)

 

 

[lemonke 1907]

9 hours ago, ScreamingDingo said:

You’re locked out of only the two most deranged deities and that’s it. You can take ANY other deific magic, you can’t just can’t take the super holy purging evil ones. Malchadiael and Xan are ones that would purge cities if it led to their goals, a singular offspring of Moz Strimoza is not worth their time connecting.

 

This stops a singular avenue of roleplay of not being a Templar, and it’s very justified as to why they’d say no. People say “Devils” aren’t “Demons”. But they are influenced and melded physically by Moz Strimzoas influence (and Ixris). They aren’t immortal ladder climbers, but they are something where these deities can be picky about their followers.

 

 

it’s fine to not be able to play karlach reclassed as a paladin. Make that part of your roleplay, and it normally means that those entities will slowly edge towards being evil from discrimination and that creates much more roleplay than letting you play a tiefling so u can be cute and have horns.

 

 

(And if people argue that the world is not cruel, remember that all elves and dwarves that don’t align themselves to a deity end up in permanent purgatory in the ebriates)

 

 

I'll have to tell you that the archetype of a tielfling paladin or cleric has been there prior to Baldur's Gate 3. Karlach has nothing to do with what people would like to do. Making "those" entities edge towards being evil due to discrimination doesn't really offer more roleplay other than pushing the theme into one niche that someone else wants; it offers a straight and direct line. One narrative, and that's all. You could say there are other ways to approach it, but we know these "different" ways are just small flavors and doesn't change a lot. Giving more RP opportunities would be a chance for the "devil" to actually prove on a soul-level that there is redemption, giving them a choice that can end up even in failure, but at least there was an attempt; at least it wasn't a red-line on a post blocking them; they failed and must live up to this. Forcing people on a path because you think it's right does not offer "more roleplay." It just tires out people who play x thing, as we've seen so many times.

 

No one has talked about being "a cute tielfling" without consequences. There are already enough consequences, as they are of little to no benefit. They are literally just normal people with mutations, and now their roleplay is being limited to only a few places for the recent happenings with some nations alraedy being so difficult to get involved with a normal character. Hence, forcing them to go through the average dark mage mentality is not helping. Which again, it's an "IC-ISSUE" but it is to consider nonetheless. Reasons can be easily made for some gods to accept them regardless of their behavior (I may have mentioned some in my post). Lore should be something fun to interact with, not some barrier behind a wall of text that must remain stagnant. Lore can change if the people behind it want to. We've seen so many times how certain redlines or lore pieces are properly ignored for fun in certain circustamances, whilst being given a good reason of course. I do not see the problem if a cursed child has not interacted with spooky stuff, shown their worth, and so on... been given an opportunity. Heck, even removing their curse through a divine connection could be worthwhile. In the end, these cursed children are not a programmed NPC for someone to control to follow a precise route.

 

Obviously, I'm talking about those born with it. Not those turned into one. All in all, I do understand what you're saying, but I realized that in the end, I'm just playing Minecraft roleplay, and all I want to do is have fun rather than build strict paths for other people. I used to criticize others a lot for what they do and their RP, if they didn't follow the norm (while I myself was extremely bad roleplayer in the past), but then I asked myself; why do I care if they don't harm anybody, and isn't anything crazy that breaks the aesthetic of the server? Perhaps, I simply don't see what's up in the background and the bigger picture. So, I could be wrong or I could be right, I don't know. I'm just a small brain dude.

 

This is a genuine question since I've been given a odd response. Why don't spirits or aspects care? Since the cursed child's soul is tained and claimed by another entity? What is your view on that? (I apologize for the whole yapping of text.)