Addressing Metaplay

[LobsterLarry 1514]

33 minutes ago, Cally said:

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no need to be a suck-up to larry either when he's done wrong.

not the point at all. 

 

the vinovians and all that have done plenty of bad-faith things in the name of a better narrative that just simply isnt true. and I've no doubt that whitelist applications had been written by him and pancho, and being caught? another instance that could have been avoided. (though i admit i know nothing about specific scenarios, i just know the way he's conducted in the past.)

 

it isn't to say I dislike the guy, it'd be more to point out a stupid choice, and at that; i dont entirely agree that metaplay is always harmful either. and the mods have created a dumb dumb insert of more work for themselves and a million more headaches. especially when their team isnt paid, and is strictly volunteer based until administration. I'd quit if I were them.

 

also no one was happy about hogo, bye hogo. thanks for nothing.

What. I did not write a single application and have screenshots of me constantly telling them to not do it. Pancho didn't even do anything in the discord except try to tell people the rules. You are clearly oocly mad at us and taking it out on us on the forums. But I would love to know what bad faith things I've done personally so that you can explain it because I don't have a clue as to what you are trying to explain as bad-faith. What's bad faith is metarallying 90 people and metagaming iris1612 and MailC3p in Numendil. What's bad faith is the constant ooc harassment of innocent players because they hang out with us in VC. What's bad faith is a VC recording of CHURCH PLAYERS actively trying to coerce players to recording our VCs to target our players (I have the clip) What's bad faith is having nations agree oocly to target Hyspia after the 'hyperwar' that they are trying to start due to OOC grudges and manipulating Hyspia to help, without telling them the ulterior motives. Now if any of my bad faith is even slightly on that level then please let me know, my discord is loberlari. I'd be happy to discuss with you what you deem bad faith and how I've tried to create fun on the server. Sure my guys tried writing apps, we told them not to multiple times. I've invited multiple staff members and moderators into my discord to maintain the rules and help me moderate things. I have also given admins access to the discord to check through things to get the innocent players unbanned and the real information given to Admins so that things are done in an efficient manner, while allowing the truth to be revealed to all, even if that worsens my chances of appeal. I have cared about this server and the player base a lot, and I have not, once, tried to be bad faith towards any players. So you trying to target me here publicly is equally as bad faith as you are just trying to make me look like a worse player than I am. And the way I have conducted in the past? Please inform me as to my conduct. Thanks. Again my discord is loberlari if you'd like to speak with me about this in a mature manner. You could also message me on the forums or even reply here and I will be happy to reply to you. Also idk why you flaming HogoBojo that's the GOAT. Maybe you should eat a snickers, you aren't you when you're hungry.

[unlegiqDuck 324]

I generally understand some of the bans, however I have two big problems with them:

 

1: The server finally had some conflict being stirred up again giving the chance for some dynamic instead of the usual stale matter of politics.

2: From what i can tell there is no transparency regarding some of the bans. Ive heared from multiple ppl that they donw know the specifics of why they are banned. This has been a problem repeatedly now and multiple times it has been said that admins/mods want to improve on it. Banned players are still players. Should be treated accordingly.

 

[monkeypoacher 8055]

27 minutes ago, Venomous_Pup said:

Yeah, nothing big happens in RP when you have bad actors in positions that eliminate Roleplay by way of running around Discord rather than sending like letters, envoys or w/e to deal with what ever situation is happening because they want to protect their bubble from any and all disruption.

 

I think nothing happens in roleplay for bigger, more fundamental reasons actually. You guys do plenty of roleplaying in the sense that you write a lot of text and pretend to have lots of meetings. You guys do almost no roleplaying in the sense that absolutely nothing occurs in the server's "plot." There are no stakes because nothing ever changes, any big shake ups would threaten "communities" on the server that the staff think are sacrosanct. I guess until one of their leaders slips up and breaks the rules - then it's okay to start mass banning them.

 

I can't emphasize enough that I do not get bored easily. I like pretending to be a fantasy guy and having little slice of life interactions. But I can't even do that. I can't find a tavern with other people in where I could type *sips ale and try and strike up a conversation about goings on in Aevos. I don't even get robbed on the roads because nobody cares about this game.

[Clone_Fives 75]

34 minutes ago, LobsterLarry said:

What's bad faith is metarallying 90 people and metagaming iris1612 and MailC3p in Numendil.

This is factually incorrect, coming from someone who was actually there. There was no metarally and there was no metagaming iris and MailC3p. People were sent to gather a rally from the various realms after one of your guys, who was not iris or MailC3p for any others reading, was captured and brought to Numendil. Iris's character was seen in Cloud Temple (which is an irp location, though should be on the map) supporting the Vinovians and was captured then released. MailC3p's character shows up at the gate and pretends lies about his name and attempted to impersonate people three times (all three times being the names of people who were already there and the last one being the gate guard questioning him). Then when he was arrested his character stated his actual name and claimed that he lied because he does not like humans (I think it was the elvish word for human). He also claimed that he was apart of the Haelunorian government and at this point there is no reason to believe him. To be honest I don't think from an irp perspective there wasn't any good reason to release him but he was. I know that the iris situation was made clear to you because I saw you complaining about how Cloud Temple is an place in rp and you didn't know in global OOC (which I can understand why you thought otherwise and don't blame you for). And just to try  to cover all my bases, for anyone who wants to reply saying "why did you only reply to this part of his post" the answer is quite simple, I saw something I know for a fact was not true and seeing how easily falsehoods can spread.

[Samson Option 9652]

1 hour ago, monkeypoacher said:

 

I think nothing happens in roleplay for bigger, more fundamental reasons actually. You guys do plenty of roleplaying in the sense that you write a lot of text and pretend to have lots of meetings. You guys do almost no roleplaying in the sense that absolutely nothing occurs in the server's "plot." There are no stakes because nothing ever changes, any big shake ups would threaten "communities" on the server that the staff think are sacrosanct. I guess until one of their leaders slips up and breaks the rules - then it's okay to start mass banning them.

 

I can't emphasize enough that I do not get bored easily. I like pretending to be a fantasy guy and having little slice of life interactions. But I can't even do that. I can't find a tavern with other people in where I could type *sips ale and try and strike up a conversation about goings on in Aevos. I don't even get robbed on the roads because nobody cares about this game.

 

******* Bars +1

[sergisala 3451]

3 hours ago, iris1612 said:

I personally am still guessing at why I've been banned at all, and especially why I've been banned for 3 months. If admins are serious about wanting to stop metaplay on the server, they need to start being transparent about what counts as metaplay so that people can learn from it.

It is frankly senseless how the Admins ignore the banned players for metaplay in discord until their appeal is accepted, which makes it difficult for these banned players to realize how they failed to respect the server rules and learn from their own mistakes to ensure that it doesn't happen again to them in the future.

[Borin 7645]

U've all forgotten the vinovians and haenselings and every1 else is only guilty bc the church is innocent and can do no wrong.

 

but its okay the church forgives u, pay me minas for forgiveness

[Kaiser 2347]

12 hours ago, Cobbler said:

Bad take tbh

 

The rules are vague, they’re supposed to be vague. It allows the administration to enforce a larger scale of “metaplay”. It’s so people can’t game the system.

 

It’s a fine argument to make that “everyone knows what metaplay looks like..” but then when it’s only enforced when it comes to things leading up to the war system it leaves a sour taste in people’s mouths.

 

~From my perspective~

LOTC from a nation/group perspective is a snowball game, the larger groups will coast off of their size which allows them host large events that are arguably more fun/enjoyable than events hosted by smaller nations.

 

All of the largest groups today benefited from recruiting outside their circle and breaking the metaplay ruleset. While this ruleset was created in-result of that, it’s in-turn decimated the ability for smaller nations to snowball outside of the year(s) long grind of events, CT application messaging, and many hours of work that goes into ensuring that your newly “recruited” player doesn’t leave to join a larger nation because they can host larger events.

 

”Why does it take metaplay to take down the larger groups?” Since the dawn of lotc, a certain level of metaplay is used to push a needle in a direction to cause events. Everything from making a war discord to grabbing your friend that you play league with is metaplay, it just depends what you decide to enforce. I was personally recruited from Badlion(A PvP server) to come and war Oren way back when. Since then I’m now known as a someone who stood with Oren until they fell.

 

Dynamic nation events don’t happen without a level of what’s considered metaplay. If it’s the administration’s perspective to keep the nations as they exist now then by all means keep em coming.

 

You know what, fair enough, I can concede this is a good point on it

[PrinceJose270 1211]

To be honest. I think one of the biggest things that would help is just clarifying/showing examples of metaplay and the consiquences of being assosiated. (As if there are examples in the rules no one can complain when x gets banned because they let Y metaplay and did nothing.)

ppl saying "no one cares about the server". Its been going strong for more then 10 years.doubt its gonna crash down in a instant.

However, If Metaplay does get clerified and get more enforced. there should be some proper longer term consiquense then just ban for X months. Might just be me but if people are conspiring oocly to start stuff instead of genuine rp routes to said conflict. They shouldnt lead a community at all. This server does become a pain in the rear when it comes down to new places forming. Since the last what. 3-4 potental places get called to be bandit nation #420. Its odd, but It makes me wonder or hope that when the New CT admin is added. There would be some more clarification and transparency between staff and players.

Alsobring back CT to the map, just make it float in the sea. Its always been a rp place no matter how hypixel yall try to make it. :)

[TN_TURKEY 298]

[PrimnyaQuorum 4000]

24 minutes ago, PrinceJose270 said:

To be honest. I think one of the biggest things that would help is just clarifying/showing examples of metaplay and the consiquences of being assosiated. (As if there are examples in the rules no one can complain when x gets banned because they let Y metaplay and did nothing.)

ppl saying "no one cares about the server". Its been going strong for more then 10 years.doubt its gonna crash down in a instant.

However, If Metaplay does get clerified and get more enforced. there should be some proper longer term consiquense then just ban for X months. Might just be me but if people are conspiring oocly to start stuff instead of genuine rp routes to said conflict. They shouldnt lead a community at all. This server does become a pain in the rear when it comes down to new places forming. Since the last what. 3-4 potental places get called to be bandit nation #420. Its odd, but It makes me wonder or hope that when the New CT admin is added. There would be some more clarification and transparency between staff and players.

Alsobring back CT to the map, just make it float in the sea. Its always been a rp place no matter how hypixel yall try to make it. :)

 

I think everyone should have a fairly decent idea whats metaplay at this point. This just reads like a lot of people coping and hoping theyre not next for doing the same/similar things but more discretely. I do sympathize with the people who have not been told what they did wrong however and hope that this is simply because so many people were banned staff is just struggling to tell all afflicted their reason. 

[Pancho 4197]

7 hours ago, Cally said:

I've no doubt that whitelist applications had been written by him and pancho

admins have been given access to the chats where these allegations have occurred in order to give transparency. They will find we engaged in none of the activity.
Though I still want to know what specific behavior was the reason for my ban so I can know to avoid it in the future rather than being given the generic "You did this." After all the shit that occurs on the server behind vague linens of expectations, I would like some transparency on what constitutes what.

[Venomous_Pup 2978]

7 hours ago, monkeypoacher said:

I think nothing happens in roleplay for bigger, more fundamental reasons actually. You guys do plenty of roleplaying in the sense that you write a lot of text and pretend to have lots of meetings. You guys do almost no roleplaying in the sense that absolutely nothing occurs in the server's "plot." There are no stakes because nothing ever changes, any big shake ups would threaten "communities" on the server that the staff think are sacrosanct. I guess until one of their leaders slips up and breaks the rules - then it's okay to start mass banning them.

 

I can't emphasize enough that I do not get bored easily. I like pretending to be a fantasy guy and having little slice of life interactions. But I can't even do that. I can't find a tavern with other people in where I could type *sips ale and try and strike up a conversation about goings on in Aevos. I don't even get robbed on the roads because nobody cares about this game.

I point to metaplay as being an issue because even minor instances of it I think cascade into making it so it is difficult for any Roleplay to happen. I have personally seen instances where trying to create great Roleplay conflict between different groups was met with accusations of the opposing group poaching, no one is going to force anyone to deal with such nonsense, and that instantly eliminated any desire for the opposing group to RP with the group they had in mind. The issue as well as the server's 'plot' is such a vague thing because ultimately the plot is anything you want it to be it can be as high stakes as you want it, or as laidback as you want. With the example you point out of being a guy that wanders around taverns chatting, if I look through an incredibly cynical lens of a nation, what benefit does that provide outside the shortlived activity so I can continue to exist and maintain my status quo? Are you going to fight for my Nation when I need it, are you going to pay taxes, are you going to generate more activity, are you going to provide me with your time and effort, are you someone I want around, etc. It is seen as replaceable and not important enough to cultivate because you are not providing a direct positive benefit to whatever place you are in. I think that mindset is personally a shame because it isn't Roleplay, it feels like an optimization of the 'game' part of LotC which actively goes out of its way to eliminate Roleplay that isn't of instant benefit, in an attempt to create the perfect place to Roleplay by doing everything in their power to remove anything that can be considered problematic they fail to realise it is the imperfections to overcome and deal with that makes Roleplay fun, be it big or small. 

I base my mindset for roleplay on a couple of different things, notably I have been reading The Ultimate RPG series by James D'amato, this video here sums up my entire thoughts on why trying to OOCly dodge any and all conflict/problems ruin RP, along with the Daggerfall manual discussing the "Replay the Save Game" Strategy which covers some of the same points of how trying to avoid consequence robs you a lot of the fun you can have on the server. I certainly agree there are things staff can work on, but ultimately it also comes down to players coming together to try to create something new and better than essentially making the same types of groups over and over again, putting the same kinds of players in charge over and over again expecting a different result, I stick by my stance that the Nation that becomes the greatest are the ones that let players have the most freedom without worrying about OOCly how certain things will affect them and simply appreciate the players they have.

[argonian 14254]

Quote

Metaplay

The play-beyond-play. Coercing, pressuring or ostracizing players to influence in-character outcomes. Out-of-character / backdoor driven narratives, events, or outcomes; fabricated or canned roleplay that serves an OOC motivation. IC activity that opposes the creative and spontaneous spirit of roleplay.

• Metaplay is the degeneration of roleplay. It may occur with or without metagaming & powergaming—but it does not include the facilitating or gathering of RP.
• Some examples are OOCly organized plots, alliances, wars, or other in-character decisions.

I mean let's just break this down into its constituent parts, since it's not really coherent and each sentence describes a totally different concept/mode of behaviour than that before and after.

 

"Coercing, pressuring or ostracizing players to influence in-character outcomes" - banning this is obviously good but in this case it would actually be the victim who would be metaplaying (influencing their roleplay with their own OOC desires, i.e. to not be ostracised). The culprits aren't actually altering their own roleplay whatsoever, so all they're guilty of is harassment. But of course, they can easily dodge any accusations of this by claiming the IC actions weren't what motivated them to, idk, remove the guy's Discord roles or whatever.

 

Actually, that raises another interesting problem - if I add you to the "Felsen City Watch" Discord chat because you joined the Felsen City Watch IRP, doesn't it also make sense to remove you from it if you leave it or are fired from it IRP? Yet since these social Discord connections are so important nowadays, a player might well fear being kicked from such a group chat and alter their behaviour IRP to avoid that. It would seem like the only legitimate way to avoid metaplaying, or actually, to avoid inciting metaplay, would be to not have any RP-related group chats in the first place (and yes that would include Nation Discords - since the fear of being kicked out of a nation is obviously a much bigger one than just having to switch noble house). There's no serious discussion of doing anything like this though, because everyone realises it's totally unfeasible.

 

"Out-of-character / backdoor driven narratives, events, or outcomes; fabricated or canned roleplay that serves an OOC motivation." - This is funny because all narratives are obviously driven by OOC given that we are all OOC. It's not like we're assigned characters at random and then exist solely in the RP-world with no idea who anyone or what anything is. From the second you decide to make a High Elf becaues your friends are playing them - that's OOC motivations driving roleplay. The sentence above is incredibly broad and would logically include messaging your friend, saying "hey, log on if you're around so our characters can meet ;)" or you making a character to try out, idk, guard roleplay and someone logging on to recruit you. Those are both incredibly common but canned scenarios, RP following a script and done for OOC reasons. I agree that canned RP is boring but everyone partakes in it multiple times a week - why is everyone logging on now? Oh, a feast was announced on Discord. Why was it announced? To hit activity checks this month. You went to a coronation? Every sentence was copy-pasted off a Google Doc written up in a Discord group.

 

"IC activity that opposes the creative and spontaneous spirit of roleplay." - Our whole Discord culture of creating calenders full of events to log on for is obviously the biggest barrier to spontaneity in roleplay but there are no attempts to push back against that because it keeps playercounts on life-support. According to this sentence, activity check culture should be the #1 purest form of metaplay that we should really be fighting against, as it's totally planned and canned and makes up 99% of such roleplay, but instead absolutely NOTHING is done to stop it and everything is done to promote it - so the idea that we want to protect spontaneity with these rules is just not true and everyone knows it.

 

"It may occur with or without metagaming & powergaming—but it does not include the facilitating or gathering of RP." - This is pretty much a direct contradiction of the previous quote, basically indicating that anything done to create RP actually isn't metaplaying. Ok, well then how is arranging a marriage metaplay if now I'm creating all the RP around that - like the (canned) meeting to agree on the wedding IRP, the ceremony itself, the celebrations, etc.? The answer seems to be: "it's not metaplay, unless your marriage might create conflict and force us to have to deal with the headaches of war rules".

 

TL;DR: yeah, we do "all know" what metaplay is - only because virtually everything anyone does on this server is metaplay and the rules around it are broken by 99% of the playerbase every single day. Thankfully, you'll only ever need to fear being banned for it if your metaplay might influence politics in a slightly interesting way, so just commit to being as boring as possible and you'll be fine.

[Tav 4336]