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Your View - Firearms on LotC

Your View - Firearms on LotC  

451 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you believe in roleplay firearms have a place on Lotc?

    • Yes (Comment your reasoning down below.)
      210
    • No (Comment your reasoning down below.)
      240


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If this idea were implemented, there would be numerous limitations on its effectiveness, and those who use it. By “Firearms” I believe that muskets are the only acceptable group to be allowed into this server. Muskets will also cost a considerably larger amount than bows due to their revolutionary way of killing. There is also the reload time which would also be considerably slower than a bow,  and are heavier. Which are large drawbacks when transporting troops, or engaging in combat with other players. Bows are silent and can be used for assassinations. As opposed to muskets; which are far from silent, but will instill fear into those on the other side of the barrel on an open field. There are cons to this new weapon, but there are also enough pros to make it worth while. When it comes down to it; all that matters is location. Archers in a forest will defeat musketeers, but musketeers in the plains would defeat archers. There is also the topic of the server aging, and I don’t mean getting less popular or active. I mean that years are passing, and technology is supposed to pass with it, so at some point in time; muskets are going to be created. Or at least something like it. Change is hard to adapt to for veterans I’m sure, but it is something that we must all come to terms with in order to move forward.

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I’ve generally been on the anti-gun side, simply out of preference, as I’d like LotC to be more LotR-fantasy-themed than something akin to Warhammer. That being said, there are some good arguments on both sides, though also quite a few flawed ones. One is pointing out the social structures being unrealistic in a medieval setting -> therefore server is not “medieval” fantasy -> therefore we should have guns. 

 

The medieval fantasy theme is a well-established, but loosely-defined theme that is identifiable across many genres. The fact that most of the governments and economic structures of LotC are not completely based in medieval realism, doesn’t inherently discredit the setting, to be chucked aside, and used as an excuse to implement later-period firearms to the server. After all, the setting is not strictly medieval, but also has fantasy elements in it, to a greater or lesser extent. It can for instance be argued that some power structures or elements in Lord of the Rings are modern, and yet no one would bat an eye if you chose to call it medieval fantasy.

 

That being said, pointing to social structures in order to justify the implementation of a technology is pointless, as the interaction between history and technology in LotC has never strictly mirrored that of real life. The consideration should instead be based in preference of the players. As such, the simple “I don’t want guns in my fantasy setting, because I don’t like said fantasy setting” might not be an argument, but it is still a valid point that should be taken into consideration.

 

Mechanics-wise however, I don’t see that many issues with the implementation of guns. If the same standards applied to crossbows are applied to guns as well, powergaming shouldn’t be an issue. What should be addressed however, is what kind of gun we’re talking about specifically. Unlike crossbows, most firearms will pierce good-quality plate (which is one of the factors for why it became obsolete later in history ofc), and can in this regard outclass the bow and crossbow. Should the guns ever be implemented, they must be so with significant nerfs, to not become the only viable alternative for ranged combat.

 

 

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The server doesn't have a theme what are literally all of you talking about. There is no justification for anything that exists on LotC to exist with the exception of some of the more ingrained things such as Aengudaemon, Eos, Aos, the Four Brothers, etc. Everything on this server lore-wise is inconsistent af and literally terrible writing. How does it make sense that people are able to acquire power from the literal embodiment of chaos and universal destruction with the only negative side-effects(the only effects at all) being ‘bodily-weakness’, which many have started to think is sort of redundant, given that few if any other magic actually makes people physically weak. Stop crying about ‘my theme’, ‘my immersion’, when none of it actually exists. Magics being added or removed – Technology being added or removed, will not change the theme of this themeless server.

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6 hours ago, Shmeepicus said:


Alright, time to kick this off. For starters, matchlocks were not widespread in Europe until the 15th or 16th centuries, this is confirmed by a simple google search and look at a few scholarly articles. Secondly, there are so so many inventions that come before guns. For example, the discovery of something similar to gunpowder in our fantasy world, cannons (which existed for centuries before guns did but which are something we do not have yet and are essential in understanding the physics behind guns), fireworks, rockets are all to name a few. If this is something that should be done and I believe that LoTC should have guns at some point, it should be explainable IRP. This isn’t something where a lore submission should be made and guns just pop out of the dirt a few months from now. If you’re claiming Oren wants guns as badly as they do, why not have them create an R&D team to actually make a solid storyline out of where guns came from. Guns are something that were worked on for literally hundreds of years to perfect. Hell, it took humanity four centuries to go from a matchlock musket to a flintlock one. There should be research done about it imo where people test prototypes and all sorts of other **** and matchlocks definitely aren’t the place to start. Rhodesiaa stated earlier that we could start off with extremely rudimentary handcannon type weapons and I think that’s a fantastic idea. Start somewhere simple and gradually increase the technology over time. This is my two cents on it and you’re free to take it as you will but I firmly believe matchlocks are not where we should be starting. If anything guns should come a few centuries after cannons which Humans are yet to even have.

 

People do brain surgery on lotc and the lore team is okay with it. There are magical lasers. We have teleportation devices attached to our bodies at all times in the form of a soulstone. This is a fantasy world. We can pursue whatever path we want.

 

But I agree with you 100% – primitive handcannons are fine. Let them be weak, dumb weapons that explode half the time and kill you instead. All we want is the flare and aesthetic to match our niche. We are not concerned with implementation. Call them dragoons, firebows, whatever. Doesn’t even have to be called a gun. 

 

10 hours ago, Qaz_The_Great said:

Adding guns makes all else useless, it would force others to adopt guns. It effects everyone on the server.

That is not true. It changes zero mechanics. Logically? Yes, guns would invalidate plate armor etc. But this is not a real-life simulator. We have humans playing medieval politics simulator while druids play magic hippy simulator. That’s great. We allow people to pick the genre, theme, and niche that they enjoy. We do not want gunpowder weapons to be anything special. It is just a renamed crossbow that does the same damage as a crossbow. You could literally even make it weaker than a crossbow if you wanted. We just want it for roleplay flare and to match the theme we are cultivating. You do you, let us do us.

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The contention is inherently subjective. Some people want to see guns introduced into the fantasy-setting, others prefer it the way it is now. You can argue that there’s no central theme to the server (I disagree), but the current gun-less fantasy setting is something tangible that is distinct from a setting that includes guns. Lore-inconsistencies and “shitty writing” does not exclude the server from being (at the very least) fantasy themed, nor does it mean people cannot be immersed in the current setting. Hell, it’s right there on the front page; we’re a fantasy-based roleplaying experience. Certain elements, such as guns, absolutely will affect the general vibe and setting of this server, for better or worse, which is what the contention is all about.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Jamyei said:

No guns, because they would ruin the medievalish vibe. Already been stated but I thought I'd restate it. Also, cannons would be aight.

 

8 hours ago, Glocky18 said:

No, they have no place on lotc. Simply because this is a /medieval/ fantasy server and I’m pretty sure the majority of the players want to experience that, and not the indutstry revolution. And not only that, sooner or later said firearms will take over the server thus lowering the playerbase... Yes I agree it would be something new, but its not LotC friendly, what will come next? WW1 trench warfare? No thank you I do not want to experience that, and many others would agree with me. 

 

7 hours ago, The_Real_Draegon said:

No, Lotc is a medieval/fantasy themed server. This doesnt belong here, but in one of those gta mc servers. First firearms and then what? Nuclear rockets and airplanes that intercept dragons?

 

7 hours ago, LucaVerheij said:

I believe no, it will be an vibe-killer for the current style of the server. The Medival fantasy-ish theme of the server will be touched while it is the main part why the RP on the server is so good quality and fun. Also if this will be allowed theren where does it stops? Going to space? The techlock is there for an reason, to prevent that the Medival setting will dissapear. 


All of you need to grab google and start reading on what constitutes an actual Medieval Fantasy, why Fantasy as a genre has medieval aesthetics as a staple, how many mainstream fantasy role-play systems include firearms, and when firearms were first introduced in the west altogether.

 

Gunpowder Artillery is a medieval technology. It was introduced in the 13th century in Europe in the form of siege cannons and hand-held cannons, and later matchlock rifles. The middle ages ended in the mid to late 15th century. It is perfectly consistent with a “Medieval Vibe”. What you are all trying to argue is that you don’t personally want guns in the setting because you don’t like them and because you prefer an earlier medieval aesthetic (reminder that the Middle Ages lasted 10 centuries), and there’s nothing wrong with that. But please, stop perpetuating this ludicrous notion that firearms break the themes of the server simply because you are incognizant about the genre and tropes intrinsic to it, or choose to ignore the reality that they are compatible with the Medieval themes, even if they were only a part of it towards the end in our world’s history.

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Challenge: describe what LotC’s “theme” is and explain how it unquestionably excludes what is depicted in these images.

 

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1qbNcI1SIOvj5_FUtxvFqmP9-dmTjQocZrPwdPqV

 

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8 hours ago, Ciaran said:

 

 

 


All of you need to grab google and start reading on what constitutes an actual Medieval Fantasy, why Fantasy as a genre has medieval aesthetics as a staple, how many mainstream fantasy role-play systems include firearms, and when firearms were first introduced in the west altogether.

 

Gunpowder Artillery is a medieval technology. It was introduced in the 13th century in Europe in the form of siege cannons and hand-held cannons, and later matchlock rifles. The middle ages ended in the mid to late 15th century. It is perfectly consistent with a “Medieval Vibe”. What you are all trying to argue is that you don’t personally want guns in the setting because you don’t like them and because you prefer an earlier medieval aesthetic (reminder that the Middle Ages lasted 10 centuries), and there’s nothing wrong with that. But please, stop perpetuating this ludicrous notion that firearms break the themes of the server simply because you are incognizant about the genre and tropes intrinsic to it, or choose to ignore the reality that they are compatible with the Medieval themes, even if they were only a part of it towards the end in our world’s history.

Sorry let me correct myself... the medievalish fantasy lotr vibe*. And how did you know that I did not refer to an earlier period in the 10 centures of the medieval period when I said medievalish vibe? At the end of the day, its down to preference to what part of medieval fantasy you enjoy rping, and I respect that. There’s no need to call me incognizant simply because I was less than imaculate with detail in my post, I just had a lot to do so I couldn’t write a lot. 

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if only

 

Dwarf Thunderer I don't get it.... — Total War Forums

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To respond to the thread seriously since it seems like a surprising amount of people do want this. If firearms get added to the game then I believe there should be an overhaul to how ranged weapons work in general, regarding hits to begin with and where they hit. Not to mention classification of weapon, and pros and cons to each type. Crossbows sort of are aids because everyone treats it like a siege crossbow that gets cranked with a windlass device, as an example. People have been really dumb about them, sorry crossbow bois.

 

Muskets are actually kind of advanced as far as the technology goes for firearms, the trigger mechanism is what makes it unique. Cannons functioned the same as an arquebus, and the matchlock was the father of the musket.

 

People, fundamentally, don’t perform maintenance to their weapons. I don’t think people even go to a blacksmith to repair their swords anymore when the durability falls into orange. Bows remain strung, crossbows never malfunction or wear out, and regarding firearms... Well, odds are it will always be loaded and at the ready at the beginning of every encounter.

 

If there was a flaw in the application of gunpowder during the loading process, a flaw in the metallurgy for the barrel, the ball wasn’t packed in against the gunpowder, etc. It would explode in your hands. Best case scenario the barrel would get blown out.

 

So bearing that in mind it might be nice if, rather than saying yes or no to firearms existing in lotc, the story team considers the functionality of ranged weapons as a whole. This can be done with rolling, with respective downsides to each one. Mainly involving functionality such as loading time, accuracy, and weapons malfunction downsides. You’re basically five google searches away from making something feasible so I’d leave that up to you. But I would encourage matchlocks being the highest form of technology present if firearms do exist because it’s honestly more interesting, considering wet equals death, and it’s probably the most effective form of balancing since I doubt anyone would consider a lead ball to be anything short of lethal.

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14 minutes ago, CosmicWhaleShark said:

 

Extending an overhaul to magic that allows an option of weaker, faster spells to keep pace with swords and missile weapons would go a long way in these balance fears as well (even though handguns would change nothing in the current rp meta).

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Personal preference, no. I’d sooner get shot with crossbows and bows rather than a firearm.I just prefer the medieval aspect of the server itself.

 

Here’s my thoughts:

 

On 4/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, repl1ca said:

Yes – we are moving forward with the years, so YES TO FIREARMS

 

Yes, we are moving forward with time and thats fair to say, its also fair to say we should be granted newer technologies for everyone to use irp. That being said my issue is the use of the guns irp and I feel like they are going to be powergamed more than your average crossbow/bow. Just because time is progressing doesnt mean that we *need* to jump to guns. There are other things we could think of that would be just as nice of an addition.

 

On 4/19/2020 at 11:49 PM, Borin said:

No. If the staff can’t answer modreqs enough to deal with powergaming etc. as it is you shouldn’t add another thing into the equation for powergaming etc. to happen and increase the amount of modreqs the staff will have to deal with. Added guns = Added stress on the staff that they don’t need, they struggle to answer modreqs properly as it is. ooga booga 1700s irp = 1700s irl!! No. Stop. Go away.

 

This is another thing im concerned with when it comes to roleplaying the firearms. I also agree with this. 1700s irp does not have to mean that it has to match 1700s irl. But the issue is, i feel that human nations could use something fresh, as lets be honest theres more magic amongst elven communities and such and if I have to say so myself i felt that places such as Oren have been progressing icly – and it’d be nice if it extended towards areas such as technology but mayhaps we can do off with firearms

 

On 4/19/2020 at 11:29 PM, Rhodesia said:

Seeing how there’s a split, rudimentary handcannons/handgonnes like this should be implemented.image.png.ff3a38e9339aac4d507cb9fcdd349949.png

 

If you get shot with that you are dead. Thats not fair. You can get nailed by an arrow or a bolt and survive – but this thing is lethal dude. Look at the size of it. Not fun.

 

On 4/19/2020 at 11:52 PM, Hanrahan said:

If the Shooter is 10+ Blocks away, roll for Accuracy.

0-10 is a Miss.

10-15 is a Hit.

15-19 is an accurate hit.

20 is a Critical hit.

 

If the Target is at close Range, 2 Blocks away or less, you do not need to roll to hit. Instead, Roll for damage. 

0-10, normal damage.

10-19, high damage.

20 is Critical damage.

 

When you fire a Gunpowder weapon, you must announce over #s 

[!] A Gunshot echoes over the Landscape. [!]

 

 

No, just not the best system for it. I appreciate your effort and the time you took to write out this small system but this thing is a firearm. If I had to suggest something alternative i’d suggest that rolling a natural 1 should mean the device blows up in your hand, a 2 it should jam. Not rolling to hit? Then this should be the case for crossbows and bows. If this was the system then im going to run up to someone after my first emotes and aim right at their head to get an instant shot on my fire emote and even with normal damage they are dead. If a correct system was implemented, and say a firearm was 4 or 5 emotes instead of 3 it’d be an alright system – and would allow people to roleplay them better. After all, this is a msuket/handcannon. It is not a rifle, it’s barrel will not have rifling. It shouldnt be incredibly accurate, it should hold poor accuracy but do big damage.

 

I agree with the gunshot noise though. It shouldnt sound like it has a medieval-silencer equipped if it existed on lotc.

 


 

Ive spent a lot of time on servers with firearms, years, and it can really dampen out a lot of other aspects. if you add firearms that takes 3 shots to fire you dent magic a lot. If you quicken magic you dent everything else a lot.

 

If added, please understand theres just as much negatives, if not way more in some cases, than positives to firearms. The system should be done correctly, they should be informed of how to emote it correctly (none of that loads gun, aims gun, fires gun BS) and there should also be something on the lore that explains the injuries for both parties

 

If its not added, well you guys im sorry but theres no pew pew firearms because as much as you want it, a lot of others dont, and it will ultimately cause a lot of issues irp if handled poorly.

 

 

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I think in the end, the mechanics of firearms on this server would be akin to that of magic or crossbow roleplay that we’ve already had for years. It’s honestly just an aesthetic difference at the end of the day. When you consider that most RP is done with an honor code, most people already do well enough following rules. And we have systems in place to deal with people who powergame the use of a firearm. Whether we limit their use and make them OP or, make them an interesting alternative, allowing someone to have pre-loaded firearms that can either make or break their chances in an RP fight I see no harm in it. I for one, think it would be cool to have a universal chart that firearms follow on a roll table. Universal so that everyone has access to these rules and terms of usage, that way we can all govern the RP at hand and call out any issues provided. I would love to be involved in the development of such a system, as I truly believe some cool and wonky scenarios could be had with something so simple implemented.

 

Besides, we’ve had cannons before and Asulon, and even not that long ago. The time should come where we sit down and lay out ground rules for firearms, and make it something fun an interesting for all the stories being forged on this server. Would I like to be shot with a pistol and have it hit some random spot on my body based on a rudimentary roll table? For sure. Would I like to see the powder fizzle out on a low roll? Of course, I now have the next move and all my opponent did was shoot sparks. Would I like to see their gun pop in their hand because they’re inexperienced with firearms and clogged their barrel or even double loaded? Again, of course. It has potential to be great with little effort, or terrible, and a lot of that will be in fate’s hands. Ultimately, that is where I see it being most interesting and fun. 

 

Just a quick thought I’d like to add. Reading through various works of early accounts from various physicians in the past and their memoirs. Arrow wounds were most certainly more lethal. Not just due to the speed in which arrows can be let loose, but also from the fact that arrowheads cut and cause much harder to heal wounds for the human body. A bullet didn’t quite need to be extracted from a wound in all cases, as it was very likely the body would encyst a bullet projectile and cause no issues down the line. An arrow head getting stuck in the body in most cases would cause constant issues. Pus being constant due to the inflammation that would occur from the flesh constantly cutting itself on the jagged arrow tip. 

I could go on forever on that subject, but if you wish to find this information explained in better detail, look up Joseph Howland Bill’s “Notes on Arrow Wounds”. While he wasn’t a “medieval” period doctor, he certainly saw the clash of two different worlds and the effect on said men involved during the time. Keep in mind, this is during the Civil War, most firearms used in this time would be ages better than the ones we contemplate adding due to whatever balance or aesthetic differences people see.

Thanks for reading this old fart’s post. ❤️

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Glocky18 said:

No, they have no place on lotc. Simply because this is a /medieval/ fantasy server and I’m pretty sure the majority of the players want to experience that, and not the indutstry revolution. And not only that, sooner or later said firearms will take over the server thus lowering the playerbase... Yes I agree it would be something new, but its not LotC friendly, what will come next? WW1 trench warfare? No thank you I do not want to experience that, and many others would agree with me. 


The Adunians and I believe to some extent the Dwarves back in Anthos would perform drills involving the digging of trenches and construction of nests from which they’d shoot arbalests and repeater crossbows at their enemies, a tactic that was actually employed in a few battles at the time.

Edited by Ciaran

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Medieval weapons, excluding firearms, already provide a huge array of combat-styles and aesthetics for different cultures and people wanting to use a certain weapon for a certain job.  That’s what makes medieval fantasy so appealing, is the array of weapons that handle completely differently.  To give-in to the power creep of firearms is not only slowly paving a path to muskets becoming the standard weapon that everyone uses, which is extremely bland and boring, but is also pointless as we already have enough variety of weaponry. Not to mention how much more variety we have since we can use all these different types of magic

 

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