Player Retention Report

[Fionn__TWG 2616]

As a player who joined nearly 2 weeks ago with 26 hours on the server (is that a lot for that time?) I can say the point about inactive cities is very true. I was very lucky to choose to walk to Haense, specifically Karosgrad at a time when it was very active, and if I walked to another city with less activity, I likely would have been one of the players who quit after day one. Many new players likely walk to only one settlement, and if that settlement is inactive at the time, that's another potential regular player we've probably lost because let's be honest, there are very few things you can do in LotC One complaint about the activity in a city, however, is that activity in a city seems to skyrocket at the time an event starts, and plummets around the time it ends. Plus it doesn't help when cities can feel full of life but then turn into a ghost town 5 minutes later.

 

I think it would be great idea if a plugin was added which would display the 5 most active kingdoms at the time of joining. That way, there would be a better chance of players running into more people and having their first experience of roleplay in the server, giving them more of an incentive to stay on the server, as I'm sure people would much rather their first impression be a having an interesting conversation with someone in the tavern of a lively city than searching the empty streets of an inactive city hoping to find someone.

 

But at some point, you're going to be by yourself, whether it's at a home you constructed in a patch of land you own, or walking from one city to the next, and those times really determine whether the player becomes a regular or quits. People are giving up their time to be on this server, and they will leave to find something more engaging if they feel it isn't worth their time. One of the ways already in place is the various voice channels in every discord server related to LotC, but some people may feel shy or awkward in a group of people they've only met for the first time.I was one of those people, and still am to some extent, but I'm glad I decided to join an active vc rather than sit in silence or listen to music on repeat, because now I've met some great people I can have fun  with. However, many people may never take the join of joining an active vc, and may never become active in any of the discord servers, which means they are missing out on one of the best parts of LotC. I feel as though we should try and promote discord in LotC so that new players can have an easier time finding a community that suits them, and also appoint a person, or multiple to maximise the windows where someone is available, who help integrate people into each nation and are willing to give up their time to help new players. I know Haense has 2 great people who do this (shoutout to @AnonymousAlexa (even though she sucks at pvp) and @MikoMonster) but I have heard that other nations have people in charge of this who are not up to par. A guide to a nation can make or break a potential future leader, soldier, craftsman etc. depending on how these people come off and how they help them.

 

One of my biggest worries about the server so far is the lack of interactions with npcs that lead to something, as right now it's just one liners from the npcs that cannot be interacted. No matter how many players are active on World of Warcraft,it wouldn't have stayed relelvant for as long as it has without the quests and interactions that stem from npcs. A quest system would help new players better integrate themselves into the world, rather than have to rely on other people for immersive gameplay, and an interactive conversations system with npcs could be a nice way for the player to learn about the lore and history of the world naturally rather than have to look it up. Yes, both of these systems could take a while to code and such, but I feel like they would be worth it as they would help inactive cities feel less barren and would help the player feel like they're making a difference in the world.

 

At the end of the day, I have loved playing on this server these past 2 weeks, and enjoy logging on to experience something with other people, and I would hate to see this server die due to some small things that turn players away from it, but at the end of the day, It is clear that at the current state of the server, it is very hard for new players for be immersed and hooked on the world, whcih will eventually lead to this server becoming desolate.

Edited January 28, 2021 by FionnTWG

[argonian 12836]

This is gonna be hypocritical of me, because I was against this when it actually was a thing, but spawn being an RP hub again might actually work wonders here tbh. 

 

Way back in Asulon, largely due to the crossroads nature of the CT(and long travel times) but also because of the Wilven Monks and miscellaneous factors, spawn itself was quite a large RP hub and there were always people RP'ing there basically 24/7. At the time this annoyed a lot of us established players but, looking back at it, I bet it worked wonders for new player retention. They were guaranteed to see people and proper RP when they logged on, and not just one or two guys AFK'ing or a CT desperately trying to entertain them as they do now. 

 

I think we should try re-establishing the Wilven Monks or something of the sort as a group based out of the CT with the purpose of giving life to it. IMO it'd be important that we work out a way for the Wilven Monks to just be regular players who enjoy what they do, because the point is for the noobs to see real RP and not just people doing a job like the CT do now. If we could work out a way to make the CT an entertaining place to be with its own playerbase, while it may take some activity away from everywhere else in the short-term, it would really help ensure that these guys find some RP fast to keep them around in the crucial first couple of hours. Then, once they're settled in and somewhat invested in the server, most of them would probably head off to other places and the Wilven Monks would pay back the "activity debt", so to speak, with interest.

[bobograndman 30]

 

2 hours ago, FionnTWG said:

I think it would be great idea if a plugin was added which would display the 5 most active kingdoms at the time of joining.

This is an interesting idea. When I first joined lotc I just happened to choose an inactive city, and my friend chose an active one. My friend had to convince me to come back to the server and just go to his city, because I had already left. 

This idea would create the problem of having new players directed to already popular cities which denies inactive ones of new blood, but I feel like having new players at all would be worth it regardless of where they get sent to. Eventually as new players become regulars they can go improve the inactive cities, or the inactive cities should just be removed if nobody wants to be in them.

 

Adding on to what @argonian said, CT should also be smaller to condense activity to around where the player would be. Right now it's huge and empty, new players are likely to miss the small amount of rp and activity that currently happens there. CT is unnecessarily large complicated for a new player who would already be confused and have no idea what's going on, it's a bad first impression.

[TJBMinecraft 821]

14 hours ago, Sham404 said:

you dont use energy to mine blocks. if you do report it on the bugtracker, because thats not how its supposed to be.

your issue sounds like a mapsize issue, i would rather see shorter distances than more teleporting around the map. I have had plenty of fun rp with encountering all kinds of things on the road, not just bandits.

thats not really valid. prices change relative to value of currency. They make less mina, but the value isnt the same as if they charged that amount of mina in last map, because there is less mina. This has been explained 100 times since the new map. I spent 200 mina on skins for some roleplay involving another player, so...

i know what gatekeeping means, but thanks for clarifying that you mean the cliqueness of TAs, not the applications themselves.

i dont even know how to start explaining this to you. Getting rid of staff enmasse is a bad idea. Absolutely get rid of bad staff, but dont do it enmasse, that will create more problems.

discourage how though. Its already in the rules not to let IC and OOC dictate eachother. HOW do you discourage it more than making it against the rules?

they literally are RPed with. I rped with every single new player i have seen in RP. I have seen other people RPing with new players as well. These statistics in no place cite "I wasnt RPed with" as a reason for leaving/not playing.

 

I'm sorry Sham but when you actually make skins, like i have for over four years come back to me. We members of the skinning community, and i'm not speaking for myself but for all skinners on the server, have found it increasingly hard because of the new economy system. The majority of us have either started taking USD for payments on Paypal or have instead decreased the prices of our skins by tenfold due to mina being practically worthless. Us skinners used to make **** tons of money for our work - which was worth it...but now it is not.

[Dasdi 658]

     When I first joined I wandered around Athera. I vividly remember walking up to the most amazing thing I had ever seen. It was the d'Avenese manor. There was a woman named Catherine rp'ing there and there was someone trying to kill her. Apparently, she was the woman courting Olivier de Savoie. She thanked me in RP and soon after we became fast friends OOC'ly. I still remember her IGN to this day, and that was one of the most welcoming experience ever.

     This little tale might seem a bit irrelevant, but I do have a few things to say which may- or may not- apply to what I am about to express. People join, and aren't welcomed by the older players. They feel unwanted and ultimately leave. People don't get experiences like the one above anymore. Additionally, players don't know where to go, or where to get started. Vortex needs guides. Don't put it on the players to figure it out themselves, or have to write our own guides. The Devs/Staff that put the time to structure and plan it out, should be well versed on the topic enough to collaborate and make guides. Vortex is just as new to me, a player since 2014, as it is to a player that joined yesterday. Medieval Roleplay is a dying niche, as much as I hate to say it, and imagine our numbers and activity if we can just retain 50% of new players, even 30%. Make our lives easier. Stop making us grind for the simplest of things. LC. I know it has been exploited in the past, but while you may be worrying about the new players we aren't retaining, what about the old players tired of the grinding? Building is a passion of mine, even one of my side forms of income. My commissions have significantly dropped. This is due to the fact of how hard it is to get materials. I shouldn't have to wait 2 hours to get 5 vines. I shouldn't have to wait 2 hours to get 7 pieces of logs. It's inconducive to RP. Also to a new player, such an expansive map may seem overwhelming. GIVE US FAST TRAVEL CARTS AGAIN. It may sound crazy, but carriages and carts exited in the middle ages. Shocker, I know. But seriously, I love LOTC and it has been my home away from real life, and its slowly slipping away. We should only grind our way through RP, not minecraft blocks.

11 hours ago, FionnTWG said:

As a player who joined nearly 2 weeks ago with 26 hours on the server (is that a lot for that time?) I can say the point about inactive cities is very true. I was very lucky to choose to walk to Haense, specifically Karosgrad at a time when it was very active, and if I walked to another city with less activity, I likely would have been one of the players who quit after day one. Many new players likely walk to only one settlement, and if that settlement is inactive at the time, that's another potential regular player we've probably lost because let's be honest, there are very few things you can do in LotC One complaint about the activity in a city, however, is that activity in a city seems to skyrocket at the time an event starts, and plummets around the time it ends. Plus it doesn't help when cities can feel full of life but then turn into a ghost town 5 minutes later.

 

I think it would be great idea if a plugin was added which would display the 5 most active kingdoms at the time of joining. That way, there would be a better chance of players running into more people and having their first experience of roleplay in the server, giving them more of an incentive to stay on the server, as I'm sure people would much rather their first impression be a having an interesting conversation with someone in the tavern of a lively city than searching the empty streets of an inactive city hoping to find someone.

 

But at some point, you're going to be by yourself, whether it's at a home you constructed in a patch of land you own, or walking from one city to the next, and those times really determine whether the player becomes a regular or quits. People are giving up their time to be on this server, and they will leave to find something more engaging if they feel it isn't worth their time. One of the ways already in place is the various voice channels in every discord server related to LotC, but some people may feel shy or awkward in a group of people they've only met for the first time.I was one of those people, and still am to some extent, but I'm glad I decided to join an active vc rather than sit in silence or listen to music on repeat, because now I've met some great people I can have fun  with. However, many people may never take the join of joining an active vc, and may never become active in any of the discord servers, which means they are missing out on one of the best parts of LotC. I feel as though we should try and promote discord in LotC so that new players can have an easier time finding a community that suits them, and also appoint a person, or multiple to maximise the windows where someone is available, who help integrate people into each nation and are willing to give up their time to help new players. I know Haense has 2 great people who do this (shoutout to @AnonymousAlexa (even though she sucks at pvp) and @MikoMonster) but I have heard that other nations have people in charge of this who are not up to par. A guide to a nation can make or break a potential future leader, soldier, craftsman etc. depending on how these people come off and how they help them.

 

One of my biggest worries about the server so far is the lack of interactions with npcs that lead to something, as right now it's just one liners from the npcs that cannot be interacted. No matter how many players are active on World of Warcraft,it wouldn't have stayed relelvant for as long as it has without the quests and interactions that stem from npcs. A quest system would help new players better integrate themselves into the world, rather than have to rely on other people for immersive gameplay, and an interactive conversations system with npcs could be a nice way for the player to learn about the lore and history of the world naturally rather than have to look it up. Yes, both of these systems could take a while to code and such, but I feel like they would be worth it as they would help inactive cities feel less barren and would help the player feel like they're making a difference in the world.

 

At the end of the day, I have loved playing on this server these past 2 weeks, and enjoy logging on to experience something with other people, and I would hate to see this server die due to some small things that turn players away from it, but at the end of the day, It is clear that at the current state of the server, it is very hard for new players for be immersed and hooked on the world, whcih will eventually lead to this server becoming desolate.

I love that idea for something that displays most active settlements. We already have a plugin that tracks activity. The staff should take advantage of that, and give this vital information to players.

[marilka 551]

Stability ******* sucks.

 

So many players who are involved in high leadership positions, not just in the rp sense but even administration as a whole, seem so obsessed with this desire to provide stability, that they have traded out something that would be far more line with their larger goals which is, in truth, a little bit of chaos, at least in the sense of RP. In my first year as a new player, I entertained myself by first exploring the various different fantasy elements on the server, which has little to do with my main point, but I'm getting there. I eventually moved on to a different sect of RP, and was immediately embroiled in political chaos, conspiracy, investigation, high stakes RP. That is what has kept me on the server. That obviously won't apply to every new player out there, but the fact that I could pick and choose what felt right to me and actually had engaging, active content to immerse myself in is the main takeaway here. If I was that new player who joined purely to explore fantasy magic roleplay, and I joined today, I'd find a hell of a lot of difficulty getting behind a lot of the walls that have been put up around certain elements that are available to players by the people who believe themselves solely entitled to them. And you'd best believe I'd have a nigh-impossible task finding any of that lovely sedition roleplay. 

 

Chaos, in the pure form of the word, is a pain in the ass. It's stressful, causes problems, but problems are fun to solve for ****'s sake. Get comfortable with losing. You can still have fun on the losing side of a war. Stop getting your panties in a twist over it all. We should be letting stories happen, letting things change, letting things grow, letting people roleplay without feeling the need to police every little thing people do in order to maintain stability. Chaos can be fun. I remember the Jackals, I remember the divorce of Adelheid of Istria and John I, I remember the Year of Four Emperors, and so much more. I could rattle on for hours, but that's obviously not the point- and, is certainly a tunnel vision point of view, but I can only speak to what I experienced personally. And I miss it. A lot. None of that would slide anymore, you'd immediately be shot down in the name of maintaining propriety. If I joined today, all of that would be lost upon me, and I would have nothing of substance to entertain myself with except for going down an LoTC wiki deep-dive. War rules and raid rules are unconducive to real roleplay grievances and issues, and need to be genuinely reworked into a more fitting system that will honor roleplay instead of hinder it. Of course, all of this is only indicative of my experience and that of several of my close friends who joined around 2014 when I did, but I do believe that there is some truth in saying that this is all indicative of a larger issue; that of stagnation. Everywhere is stagnant. Nothing is the same, and nothing ever will be, but it's time to pull ourselves out of this rut and apply what we can from the past to the present and so forth. 

 

Another issue is this incessant grinding nonsense. Do you truly believe that having to sit around for hours mining blocks, waiting hours for them to regenerate and then doing it all again, then pasting each block in by hand is contributory in any way to an RP server? You'd have more luck trying to draw blood from stone. Bring back LC. Have players monitored. Create a team of people who are trustworthy and willing to sit there and schematica in a build quickly with LC so settlement players don't have to go through all of the mind-numbing motions of mine, wait, build, repeat. I don't care how you implement it, just make it happen.

 

You're concerned about player retention rates? Start listening to the people who are actually here.

[Dasdi 658]

33 minutes ago, marilka said:

Stability ******* sucks.

 

So many players who are involved in high leadership positions, not just in the rp sense but even administration as a whole, seem so obsessed with this desire to provide stability, that they have traded out something that would be far more line with their larger goals which is, in truth, a little bit of chaos, at least in the sense of RP. In my first year as a new player, I entertained myself by first exploring the various different fantasy elements on the server, which has little to do with my main point, but I'm getting there. I eventually moved on to a different sect of RP, and was immediately embroiled in political chaos, conspiracy, investigation, high stakes RP. That is what has kept me on the server. That obviously won't apply to every new player out there, but the fact that I could pick and choose what felt right to me and actually had engaging, active content to immerse myself in is the main takeaway here. If I was that new player who joined purely to explore fantasy magic roleplay, and I joined today, I'd find a hell of a lot of difficulty getting behind a lot of the walls that have been put up around certain elements that are available to players by the people who believe themselves solely entitled to them. And you best believe I'd have a nigh-impossible task finding any of that juicy sedition roleplay. 

 

Chaos, in the pure form of the word, is a pain in the ass. It's stressful, causes problems, but problems are fun to solve for ****'s sake. Get comfortable with losing. You can still have fun on the losing side of a war. Stop getting your panties in a twist over it all. We should be letting stories happen, letting things change, letting things grow, letting people roleplay without feeling the need to police every little thing people do in order to maintain stability. Chaos can be fun. I remember the Jackals, I remember the divorce of Adelheid of Istria and John I, I remember the Year of Four Emperors, and so much more. I could rattle on for hours, but that's obviously not the point- and, is certainly a tunnel vision point of view, but I can only speak to what I experienced personally. And I miss it. A lot. None of that would slide anymore, you'd immediately be shot down in the name of maintaining propriety. If I joined today, all of that would be lost upon me, and I would have nothing of substance to entertain myself with except for going down an LoTC wiki deep-dive. Of course, all of this is only indicative of my experience and that of several of my close friends who joined around 2014 when I did, but I do believe that there is some truth in saying that this is all indicative of a larger issue; that of stagnation. Everywhere is stagnant. Nothing is the same, and nothing ever will be, but it's time to pull ourselves out of this rut and apply what we can from the past to the present and so forth.

 

Another issue is this incessant grinding nonsense. Do you truly believe that having to sit around for hours mining blocks, waiting hours for them to regenerate and then doing it all again, then pasting each block in by hand is contributory in any way to an RP server? You'd have more luck trying to draw blood from stone. Bring back LC. Have players monitored. Create a team of people who are trustworthy and willing to sit there and schematica in a build quickly with LC so settlement players don't have to go through all of the mind-numbing motions of mine, wait, build, repeat. I don't care how you implement it, just make it happen.

 

You're concerned about player retention rates? Start listening to the people who are actually here.

 

This. this is so beautifully written, and speaks for most if not all veteran players.

[Werew0lf 12005]

I’m happy with how things are right now, this server doesn’t deserve stability. 

[monkeypoacher 6993]

3 hours ago, Werew0lf said:

I’m happy with how things are right now, this server doesn’t deserve stability. 

 

vortex

[Proddy 2242]

I honestly think the biggest problem with the range and variety of RP on this server right now and why I imagine a lot of newer players are becoming disinterested fast is the actual state of how the server runs. Whenever LoTC caps 200+ (and many times not even that) it's impossible to even walk 2 minutes away from a major settlement or city without encountering chunks issues and falling into the mineman void. PVP with more than two people always ends up lagging more than a World War 2 documentary. The server is nigh unplayable outside of the boundaries of cities and towns which has made the status quo of LoTC RP literal slice of life LARP for a very long time. And whilst there's nothing wrong or abhorrent with that at face value, lots of newer players (and even old) don't play this server to do literal Sims RP of going to your mineman job and tending to your mineman family. Lots want to play for the adventure, the exciting battles and the sheer escapism of writing and putting yourself into the shoes of a character or person that isn't yourself, in a rich and well-imagined world where the lore has been building for nearly 10 years at this point.

 

I still remember the thrill of being a new player in 2013: the dissolution of the Holy Orenian Empire into the Three Kingdoms, King Silus Horen of Renatus getting couped by Siegmund Carrion, the Second Orenian Empire beneath the Carrion Vochna, the looming threat of Setherian and the Fall of Castle Black to his undead. Even as far along in 2015 there was still so many interesting and captivating things going on all at once; the Reformed Kingdom of Oren and the rise of the Savoyard Kings, the Horen Restoration as the Johannian Empire where we were at war or in some political turmoil every other week. 

 

And that actually brings me nicely onto my second point: the lack of any conflict on this server has really put it into a strange and very unenjoyable state at times. Admins seem to have some weird notion that 'conflict bad perpetual pacifism good' and have put these weird gridlocks on conflict rules: raid rules suck ass and kill any sort of dynamic and sudden conflict in roleplay as well as consequences for important characters and figures ******* up. The war rules, though an improvement on the last ones are still half-assed and do nothing to mediate fairly to both sides, the attackers and the defenders. Think on some of the most narratively important wars on this server that have really shaped the landscape and legend of LoTC history: the Dukes War and even the War of the Two Emperors at its peak. These were both reasonably executed wars with a solid RP buildup that came of actual RP consequences and drove forth a narrative and a resolution at the end. They were both, in my mind, perfect wars. They weren't born of petty OOC grudges or beefs left unsettled but rather as responses to actual RP mistakes and atrocities. I really don't believe we could ever have wars like that again on this server with the current state of the war and raid rules, and honestly even though I'm not the biggest fan of PvP and warclaims it makes me really sad that the soldiers of most nations are essentially redundant and confined to just doing gate duty RP all day long.

 

Also to comment briefly on Vortex - just get rid of it man. LoTC is not and never has been an MMO - if I wanted to spend 50 hours grinding for some shiny sword I'd go play World of Warcraft or something. LoTC is a player-driven narrative roleplay server that utilises creative writing and world building to drive forth its story. LoTC doesn't need some micromanaged economy to survive - literally just bring back LC lmfao, it was the best system for building and resources this server had in a long time.

 

In short, just listen to your playerbase a bit more. You can spout to me this age old quote that "LoTC isn't a democracy" all you want, but chances are if 90% of your playerbase don't agree with what the Admin team (who the majority of only play like once a month) are dictating then chances are you're probably wrong on a lot of it.

[niya 180]

dibs on 100th comment

 

edit: forums did not count my 100th comment, post is still at 99

 

edit 2: nvm it worked just took awhile

[Ibn Khaldun 7728]

On 1/28/2021 at 1:49 PM, NotEvilAtAll said:

 

@argonian@Cloakedsphere@monkeypoacher@Gaius Marius Obviously, all of us agree that freebuild in some form or another is good and a solution to many of the server's woes such as retention and staleness. However, I think there is room for discussion as to what form said freebuild ought to take and how the staff ought to go about regulating it, for without this discussion the server would be doomed to forevermore oscillate between freebuild and non-freebuild systems as old grunts try to bring the server back towards Aegis and fresher blood complains about roleplay decentralization upon the new freebuild maps.

 

To start this discussion, what is the best way to deal with issues of raiders setting up camp right next to nations/freebuild settlements within areas of freebuild? Is it a non-issue that ought to be resolved by players and not staff, or should there be some form of regulation by staff to avoid sai situation? I personally feel as though there could be some regulation here, but I'm hesitant to return to the old freebuild rules of the 50-block rule as I feel as though that system was not very dynamic and lended itself to OOC bickering.

 

And, to drag the discussion back to the original intent of the thread, what can be done currently to improve player retention, even without freebuild and the world being locked off behind nation owned tiles and OOC nation leader politics? Would another eventline like that of the Athera event be a good idea, or should the ST focus on smaller flavor events? Is Vortex a problem or a part of the solution?

 

 

Anyone who played in Aegis can correct me, but I remember freebuild being in the center of the map with the four races basically sitting adjacent at opposite corners and the Cloud Temple resting facing one side of the freebuild. 

 

Freebuild is where a lot of the chaos that gives the server day-by-day activity can take place in a relatively self-regulating environment due to conflict roleplay. I know that, back in Aegis, I intentionally used my guild as a sort of vacuum cleaner to suck up both the people not putting out great builds and engaging in "raid RP". I read in one of the replies in this post that this sort of chaos gives players something to solve and, to take that further, it gives players a way to rate the "product we produce" in terms of roleplay groups. If a group or roleplay entity appears too implausible or low-quality, then ever-changing nature of the freebuild can ensure something better quality supplants it.

Those who prefer non-conflict roleplay can definitely have their niches and I am not referring to the cliche pledge allegiance to X nation for protection. As NotEvilAtAll mentioned about Dalek348 and the original Halflings, the Halflings basically became the comfortable location for those non-conflict roleplayers - the Halflings definitely had other players with other races and overall, all of us agreed that they should have a comfortable place from which to interact with the server as a whole.

 

As to your other comments: 

 

I definitely agree that an overarching event-line can be the staff's way to foster that day-to-day activity. A lot of feedback against "server eventlines" typically fall under subjective not my taste. I think we, as gamers/players first, should recognize the general purpose and effect that server storylines have. I say this both as a joe-schmo player dealing with the Undead in Aegis and as an ex-staff member directly involved with the Harbingers.

 

Vortex would not be such an issue if it weren't so confusing as a "laymen"/regular joe-schmo player again. I honestly can't figure it out very well in the few times I've logged in since visiting again recently.

[capiital 275]

I'm just gonna make this short and simple.

 

Vortex and Toxic Playerbases is why people wish to leave all the time. People love to drive people out of the server with their power hungry and fake personalities, discouraging them from even bothering being active. Vortex is a huge issue because it also discourages other from starting anything, like creative settlements or interest places to attract RP. 

 

[ydegirl 1756]

"hey ! we want some more craftable items ! that'd be fun !"

"here you go, a 34 page essay on how to work this unneeded craziness on how to get 7 logs every 2 hours."

 

anyways. i haven't sat here and read a lot of the stuff in this thread, but i have read marina and dasdi's, i agree with them 100%, and i feel as if a lot of the issues are coming from how hard vortex is and how almost no one in the playerbase really understands it, or likes it. vortex should've had a guide for it once it and the map came out- if that meant delaying it by a few months so be it. basically, what im saying is that vortex is hard to learn- especially for new players. i won't sit here and ramble on and on any longer, since i think a lot of people have made great points- but i will say this: listen to the majority, not the minority.

[Salvo 1831]

Apes together strong. 🦍