1.9 or 1.8 PvP ? (a Conversation/Debate Thread on the Current PvP System)

[Xarkly 13037]

remove 2nd row of hearts

[louislxix 3109]

more damage on bows

 

dont remove the extra line of hp, because a good pvper will kill u in 4 crits (which is easy to do)

 

saturation less 

[GMRO 5330]

Removing the second row of hearts would absolutely melt everyone in the new system. I don't see the issue about extended fights even, they're fun

[Masouri 2258]

 Just listen to @dyselxic @GMRO. Also no point in arguing which is better when we all know conflict rules are so scuffed we can’t even PvP. 1.9 group fights are more fun imo, joint training was a perfect example of that. 

 

[aiden0023 1374]

2 hours ago, dyselxic said:

more damage on bows

 

dont remove the extra line of hp, because a good pvper will kill u in 4 crits (which is easy to do)

 

saturation less 

I think this would be a good median fix to at least get me to stop complaining occasionally about 1.9. The issue I think that most people are having is that fact that you get someone really low and you can’t finish them because bows do like less than one heart of damage (exaggeration a bit, but you get the point). This causes kiting to lose its skill because anyone with more than two brain cells can now run from a fight when they are below 20 health, eat when they are six blocks away from you, and regen like five health because of sat, doesn’t matter how many times you crit them.

2 hours ago, GMRO said:

Removing the second row of hearts would absolutely melt everyone in the new system. I don't see the issue about extended fights even, they're fun

Yeah, after fighting a couple of times after I posted this forum post, keeping things that you and @dyselxic and some others were noting in mind, maybe lowering health would not be the issue, but to need saturation and buff projectiles would be the solution. I think a lot of 1.8 pvpers are stuck with being good with bows and crossbows and using them to finish kills from people running, but can’t do that in 1.9 because of how terrible projectiles are at the moment.

[Shmeepicus 3966]

22 hours ago, AnonymousAlexa said:

If you think 1.8 has a greater skill gap than 1.9, you're trippin bro...

 

It does.

[Orlanth 3593]

12 hours ago, dyselxic said:

im not sure about anybody else, but the big 40v40 training we did with haense/norland/dwarves was some of the most fun I've had this map

 

if ur complaining that the health is too high / damage too little, u can't jump crit or group fight properly

 

1.9 pvp = high skill gap, and personally more fun

 

1.8 pvp = more of the same, less fun

 

and idk about you, but the server hardly ever does pvp, so when it does i'd preferred slightly extended fights rather than just blobbing into a big autoclicking mess

I think this summarizes my thoughts on the issue personally but I do have a couple other things to add:

First, I find that cheaters in 1.9 are typically easier to catch and are less beneficial than in 1.8. Keyword, less, I understand that they still do give an inherent advantage. The major difference that I find is that it requires the use of a client or mods for beneficial hacks as opposed to a hard to catch auto-clicker script. 

Second, I see a lot of comments here about TTK. Personally I don't find TTK that bad but I do agree it can certainly be slow at times for many people especially with kiting and saturation. However, most communities do their practices off of the main LOTC server where it's easier to organize things in 1.9 with the custom things. The important thing here is that they aren't using exact copies of Vortex/Surge so they're missing a couple things the biggest being special effects. I'm sure many people remember the bleed and stun effects from the Open Beta, these will greatly decrease TTK since kiting will be harder and there will be more damage. That begs the question, why haven't we seen any of these on live? Well, the first thing to consider is that most major fights have happened at a level of bronze or iron gear where the chance to land an effect is abysmally low, coupled with the fact that common LOTC gear is pretty much just Chainmail and Swords, (Chainmail resists bleed from swords), and these effects haven't shown up at all. Hopefully some changes are made to make these effects more relevant.

Third, I suspect LOTC already has some form of buffed bow damage, something that people haven't experienced too much because of private servers. 0zark and I did some thorough testing of bow damage on Open Beta and we found that bows often did 2-3 hearts of damage per shot. On private servers, this damage feels (and probably is) much lower. 

Edit: I've been informed this is no longer the case. I definitely think this should be changed back to how it was.
 

Fourth, most weapons can very easily out DPS saturation even without landing critical hits. As dyselxic has correctly said, the problem is that people aren't particularly good at group fighting. 1.9 group fighting and 1.8 group fighting are incredibly different and it takes a lot of practice to transition from one to the other so I understand a lot of the community's frustration with this. 

Fifth, we already know changes are coming in some form or another. Pretty much everyone agrees that the current version of vortex is drastically underprepared and work is being done to fix it. It's not worth arguing too much about these things right now because we aren't using a finished product. I understand there is a difference between constructive criticism and whining and I think there are definitely some people on this thread who have made better suggestions than others. Just sit tight and let's see what happens because everyone knows the player base doesn't have any control / say in things anyways. 

 

[aiden0023 1374]

34 minutes ago, Orlanth said:

The important thing here is that they aren't using exact copies of Vortex/Surge so they're missing a couple things the biggest being special effects. I'm sure many people remember the bleed and stun effects from the Open Beta, these will greatly decrease TTK since kiting will be harder and there will be more damage.

I forgot about the effects because no one pvps on live ever, even during trainings because its a waste of gear. Overall, I appreciate your thorough response, I like hearing from goons like you and Louis who are good at 1.9 because most of the responses from the people who are in favor of 1.8 is because they aren't very good at 1.9 yet, so it was hard to take their responses seriously when most of them are "1.8 click fast = 1.8 good". The only issue that I think 1.9 will have is during warclaims when everything is a slideshow, unless that is fixed.

[excited 10836]

I honestly don't like this amount of shifting back and forth between 1.8 and modern PvP. Like, it should have never been changed back to 1.9 IMO. We tried 1.9 years ago, back when I was still in high school. It didn't work out and everybody hated it. Rinse and repeat, honestly. 

Many of the groups that advocated for 1.9 believed that it would allow for more strategic plays in-game. That is quite simply not true, if somebody is not good at 1.8 they will likely not be very good at 1.9 either as a lot of the same concepts from 1.8 are as intrinsically important to game-play (aim, movement, game sense). A lot of people who advocated for 1.9 believed it would be the great equalizer for PvP (laughable) and were shocked when it didn't play out that way. I honestly like both forms of game-play, I just loathe having to consistently adjust to one or the other whenever the server's Developers get schizophrenic again and forget that continuity is important. 

 

If it changes again, make it an ultimatum: it stays. It's killing a lot of competitive players' drive to play when you constantly build a conflict system on shifting quicksand. On top of that, both forms of PvP are absolutely gutted on LoTC as long as there is no reason for people to perfect and hone their craft. I like CRP a lot as a player and enjoy doing it with players I know, but it cannot be argued that CRP on a role-play server is the most effective form of conflict resolution. 

Maybe I'll outline more of my thoughts later, I honestly like the tiered gear Nickrocky has been introducing - and I don't mind acclimating to the new PvP setting. But we got to stop swapping back and forth it's just going to disturb new players and make it difficult for there to be any semblance of good competitive gameplay if there's a skill vacuum.

[TrendE 1324]

LOTC used to be worth playing for the epic moments between the really boring & mundane bits, which was the majority. Between 1.9 PVP, no wars (Wars would be **** anyway even if they were currently in w/ the current PVP) & Vortex - there's even less reasons to play than there already was bc the gameplay just isn't enjoyable anymore unless you only play for slice of life RP. I like to check in every once-in-a-while on the forums to see if anything has changed, but of course posts like this fall on deaf ears & remain without a response from any sort of server representative because they have their own vision of what the server should look like and don't care for the other 2/3 of the server who disagree.

Road to 500, lol.

[aiden0023 1374]

4 hours ago, TrendE said:

LOTC used to be worth playing for the epic moments between the really boring & mundane bits, which was the majority. Between 1.9 PVP, no wars (Wars would be **** anyway even if they were currently in w/ the current PVP) & Vortex - there's even less reasons to play than there already was bc the gameplay just isn't enjoyable anymore unless you only play for slice of life RP. I like to check in every once-in-a-while on the forums to see if anything has changed, but of course posts like this fall on deaf ears & remain without a response from any sort of server representative because they have their own vision of what the server should look like and don't care for the other 2/3 of the server who disagree.

Road to 500, lol.

Yeah, wished there was admin or mod responses on this to give input lol

[𝕾𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖚𝖘𝖍 2242]

If only player polls actually mattered to the staff team. I like 1.9 as much as the next guy, but 1.8 was a legacy PvP for LoTC and resonates with many of the older players, and while I understand it is necessary to progress in MC versions and look for new players doesn't mean the legacy LoTC should be left to the dust.