THE LONELY CHILD: A Handful of Observations About LOTC's Gender Bias

[TreeSmoothie 4943]

There definitely is a big difference in how characters of diff genders are approached, at least from what I've seen.

 

I've recently (within the last few months) taken up 2 Noble human characters: one is John, one is Emelia.

- John has been approached a lot and has very quickly made friends, alongside aquiring multiple positions, while:

- Emelia, who I rped on much more at that time, was almost always ignored (and even was the victim of harassment by adults, at ages 8-10)

 

The idea that "monke brain makes me not want to interact with women" is ... strange at best. And does sound more like misogyny than anything else (whether it's because "girls are so much drama teehee", the "all they do is court rp" steryotypes, etc).

[megavoltar 1118]

Whut?

[esotericas 1561]

58 minutes ago, Kholibrii said:

I do believe that LOTC still has a lot of issues with misogyny and that it could be part of this, but I believe a large part of the problem lies in many players' dislike toward other players who don't conform to their expectations at both an OOC or RP level.

 

Using the example of Alasdair and Galina, you note that people seemed to be more welcoming to the young and adventuring Al, while most seemed to ignore or take little interest in Galina. This isn't necessarily just because the character is a woman, but rather that players have an expectation that the young boy should be more adventurous while the girl should be better protected and less adventurous,  as such, they encourage one and discourage the other. I'd personally argue that this is a form of misogyny, but when you look at other examples it becomes clear that it's larger than that. Imagine instead of Alasdair and Galina, you have two characters, Bob, a more "traditionally masculine" boy, and Robert, a more "effeminate" boy. I'd argue that you'd see a similar outcome, with Bob being more accepted by the overall LOTC player base, while Robert would likely experience a similar disinterest to Galina because he is not conforming to the expectations of how a male character should behave.

 

This extends to OOC interactions as well, where people will likely shun you if you aren't conforming to their idea of what you should do, say, and think. Gender Identity, Race, Sexual Orientation, etc all play a role in this and it's not something you can simply call "Misogynistic" or "Homophobic" because it is ALL of it at the same time. I could say so much more about my personal experience on the topic, but I think this post is already getting long enough and I have one more thing I want to touch on.

 

THIS ISSUE IS A LOT WORSE IN SOME PLACES THAN OTHERS!! Since 2021, when the push for equal inheritance happened in human nations(<3 @Ivoreyy Rosemoor Bill), most human communities have put a lot of effort into making sure people of all identities feel safe and welcomed within their nation. Overall this has had an amazing impact on the server and you will find a lot more welcoming nations than you did a few years ago, but there are still places lagging behind. Some smaller communities still allow, or even support, differing levels of OOC and RP discrimination and that's where you will feel the effect of all of this a lot heavier. It's pretty easy to figure out which communities aren't putting energy into making sure people feel safe, so I'm not going to call anyone out, I'll allow everyone to analyze that themselves. Note: This final comment IS NOT meant to be targeted at any specific nation/community and shouldn't be correlated with any specific communities mentioned in @esotericas's post or mine

 

7 minutes ago, Frostdrop1 said:

While it's important to be aware of gender bias, I also think examining something like LOTC for this kind of experience is rather strange. Playing on LOTC I don't expect to be treated as an equal irply in any given situation between the variety of races, beliefs and cultural practices. I also don't really want to always be treated as an equal - I want a fantasy realm with culture and culture does include the concept of gender bias and gender roles, and how your character interacts with those concepts is important and can greatly lend to your character's arc. In other words, I'm entirely okay with discrimination in a roleplay setting because I am not my character and I find those kinds of conflicts far more interesting and much less grating than some petty argument or getting hounded over one or two actions a character has done. 

I've also regularly played male and female characters in various rp communities - being assumed a male or a female is not exclusive to LOTC it's a logical extension of the information we do have because humans innately like patterns and we extend what knowledge we know naturally. It's not really particularly relevant to LOTC nor is it true bias imo, it's just a matter of ease and convenience of communication - if you play a male, expect to be assumed male. If you play a female, expect to be assumed female. If you don't want those assumptions to persist, politely correct someone.

Moreover, as someone has pointed out this isn't a very good comparison. It's heavily skewed and offers a flawed, anecdotal experience which focuses its language on highlighting the negatives when it seems quite clear that although you were passed around on your very young female persona the community was going out of its way to ensure you had someone to rp with. Overall, I think coming at any fantasy realm with the idea that because I experienced [x] in roleplay therefore [y] is true OOCly is a dangerous and unhealthy mindset which should be looked at cautiously. There are times when this is appropriate, and there are times when it is not. from reading this, to me, it sounds like a time where it is not appropriate.

 

5 minutes ago, Bonito said:

It's important to give context to these places you visited. Adria was a different place in Almaris. It was on a highly active road and there was an effort to bring noobs and strangers into their community. Many nations this map don't even open their gates. Why talk to the random who might disrupt the perfectly safe and curated roleplay experience?

 

I'd say most of this is an observation on the state of roleplay more than it is gender bias (but its there). A lot of players simply wait to be emoted at, regardless of what you are. To give my own observations, several times this map I've walked up to strangers and emoted at them only for them to parkour away or give some excuse in ooc as to why they weren't going to respond (roleplaying on a roleplay server????).

 

Also want to mention that it is medieval fantasy. What does a noblewoman or a wizard have in common with a child? People will generally engage with the unique qualities of a character. The brave knight is going to want to save the little princess, not discuss fighting styles or recruit them for the military, and I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that. It gives people the chance to change or challenge preconceived beliefs. Biases generate interactions, good and bad! The issue is when biases spill outside the game.

 

Your observation on ooc treatment are the most interesting to me. The first women characters I ever played came around because I wanted to get attacked less (it worked) but I also ended up getting invited to a lot more roleplay, friend groups, and the first magics I would ever learn. A few years later, and you've had a very different experience. I don't really have an answer for why we were treated so differently, but my theory is the growing tribalism on here.

These are all absolutely good critiques- I don't really have the braincells left to respond in full to all of you guys, and I'd rather not give y'all something poorly thought-out, so I'm going to hold off on writing a full response for now. I do totally hear you all, and I agree that the gender bias idea is not nearly the only thing at play, nor is it, most likely, the primary cause of these two different experiences, and I do definitely agree that it's not a perspective that's always conducive to the most "immersive" RP, however I do feel that considering things like that are important for fun RP. 

 

I won't go on more now, but thank you for the thoughts, it's been interesting to hear all the different perspectives. 

 

Interestingly, RE: OOC treatment, I've heard from multiple people that my experience is the inverse of theirs! 

[Werew0lf 12058]

If you aren’t a Weiss, I ain’t talking to you. 
 

👋 talk to the hand 

[NotEvilAtAll 9945]

With how isolated communities are nowadays, this probably varies wildly from place to place.

[Nowak 877]

To be brutely honest after reading the post.

 

LOTC is a place full of social awkward weirdos like myself.

 

If they won't talk to girls in real life, what makes people think they will go out of their way to talk to them in a game?

[Timer 1439]

[hemomancy 2860]

Hey, at least one cool thing abt being a woman is being asked your cup size in calls!!!

 

Kidding obviously, though I personally, as an AFAB and someone with female or genderless characters, stray away from human communities due to their male player bases. No offense to most, just very bad personal experiences OOCly that make me stray away. We workin on it though lmao.

[yopplwasupxxx 5665]

As a 25-year-old male whose been on this server almost close to 10 years now, I just don't feel comfortable roleplaying with underage girls, both RPly and OOCly. I simply want to hang out with old pals and click people with my younger brother's goon squad. If this makes me gender biased, so be it, but taking into account the rampant pedophilia and sexpest-ism on this server, I consider my position ultimately a benevolent one.

[Gandhi 2718]

1 hour ago, Timer said:

 

[Pancho 2544]

I have only played one child persona. It's awkward interacting with people on it as it feels wrong to play as a child. Easy solution.

[monkeypoacher 6993]

>be me, dwarf in whitespire

>approach girl to strike up a friendly conversation

>a guard takes notice of this immediately and puts his hand on his sword pommel

>explain to him that i have no ill intentions

>i know little girls like her can be alienated and lonely having no one to talk to

>guard coaxes me out into the woods, am forced to roll around in leaves and mud 

>caged, displayed at court as the "whitespire ape" 

>when the guards aren't looking, try to explain to visitors that i am a sentient dwarven merchant and not an ape

>no one can understand my accent

 

is it over?

[Shiredom 1554]

4 hours ago, Carson said:

I literally pretended to be a dude for a few years (hence my forum name being Carson still) to get perverts off my back

 

now that im an adult, nobody really cares enough to try to groom me. but I'm not really a human player anyway

 

You're a woman!??!

[squakhawk 8021]

I have to say I have noticed the opposite effect, and it’s troubled me greatly. I talked at length with my friends this map and last about how strange of a phenomenon it was. 

 

When roleplaying my female characters, such as Anethra, Caira, or Illythia, I can’t say even once I felt I was being ignored irply. I was referred to often (and still am, both seriously and jokingly) as a woman OOCly and I can’t say I ever encountered mistreatment or disrepect upon me or how I play my characters, if anything just some teasing from a lot of folks which was all lighthearted and good fun. I found Anethra and Illythia to be by in large my most successful characters ever because of simply how many people begged to interact and talk with them, for hours on end. I had the opposite thought where people were just trying to sex my characters, which I also can pretty confidently say didn’t happen whatsoever. I have to note too, since it’ll be brought up, I was not even on ST the majority of my time on Illythia- and as Anethra, I was just some no-name on the team until the end half of her best and last arc. 

 

Id honestly say it’s significantly easier, at least for me, to play female characters simply because of how baby’d I was in roleplay. I was always included, given preferential (irp) treatment, and made so many actual OOC friends based off amazing roleplay. 

 

On my kale characters, contrary, I’ve had almost a terrible time with each. Lucian Renault, Laurent Silversteed, Sand, with the only real exception to the rule being Hera who got such a cult following because of how fucking weird he was people usually talked to him cordially because he was a weird little creature. But as Lucian, Laurent, Sand, I feel out of place. I never fit in in cities, i’ve went so far to describe it as being a custom character in a GTA V Cutscene. Nobody talks with me, nobody interacts, again before, during, and after being a regular base ST for all these guys. I only got to talk and roleplay with people I was OOCly established with. Others only approached me because I had a magic and they wanted it. Most of the time as a male character people massively disrespected their character quality (particularly Lucian and Laurent) because they were human nobility and thereby seen as “generic and uninteresting”. I really tried to give them both a shot for a year and a half and I’ve never had a more toxic time trying to have a human family succeed that was thwarted nonstop by OOC efforts and debasing of my character, especially because they were male and I’d previously played females. 

 

I can say there’s a definite stereotype of “palace egirl” (not one I endorse) which I think falls into the idea that there are characters which can appear this “generic and uninteresting”. People are terribly shallow and typically look at only the most surface appearances of a character and depending on what they may already think about you, debase you off that. The server is mildly different from then now where with the foregoance of activity checks (starting to miss them) we have super insular groups that only roleplay with one another all the time. Nations don’t change hands, don’t move, players and playergroups are static because they can afford to be. You’re an outsider, why would they take the chance? I know this is a roleplay server, that’s not how it should be, yada yada, but I can’t say I have control over that since I know people will flip shit if something like checks came back and people actually made a concerted effort again to intermingle and roleplay with one another over an easily achievable imaginary number. 

 

 

 

I went a little off tangent. Overall my point is that i believe it isn’t rampant widespread misogyny, I think it’s an idea that people are too quick often to judge characters and want to be engaged more than they want to engage roleplay. It’s always good to be mindful with what we think of characters, their sexes, their races, and to clear any bias we have since this is a fictional playtime video game meant to safely visit and see themes and feelings we otherwise wouldn’t have outside of it. That’s the core of roleplay. 

 

These are all anecdotal, and personal experiences, which don’t reflect true for everyone. How we interpret our interactions and roleplay is completely different as we are completely different people. You’re entitled to your opinion, and I my own, and neither is more wrong nor right than the other. I’m just giving personal experiences I’ve had myself and a reflection I’ve been wanting to share for a long time since I can’t help but notice how strange it was, and how weird it makes me feel to focus on my male characters now which are a fraction as successful. 

[Crevel 4727]

I am personally uncomfortable with interacting with child characters in general, so I don't do it most of the time. It's also why I usually start playing my characters properly around the 16-year mark. A lot of the time, I see children characters and it makes me feel disgusted that there's probably a 20+ year old or even a 30+ year old behind the computer screen trying to pretend to be a child. LOTC is used for escapism, and that's what they choose to be? There are players out there who choose to play almost strictly children. It also doesn't help that some people play their children characters obnoxiously. I've seen so many child characters around the age of 5-7 get into arguments with adult characters and use complex words that those children shouldn't reasonably know. Same with child characters that are played only to be gremlins, as if that hasn't been done a thousand times before. 

 

Since this is a thread about roleplay gender observations, my own observation is that those particular obnoxious child characters tend to be girls. Child characters that are boys, from my own experience, tend to be more focused on roleplay development that gives them easier accessibility to paths like knighthood, church acolytes, and other generally militaristic roles that have systems in place that give child characters the opportunity to ingratiate themselves with a niche at a young age. I'm sure that there are definitely girl characters that exist for similar purposes, but from my observations it seems like most of the time they weren't created with that goal in mind.