the case for banning homophobia

[RLNGO 287]

Yah we should prolly ban homophobia if we already ban colorism/racism. Ban transphobia too + romance rp

Edited March 1 by RLNGO

[ReveredOwl 5331]

ok @satinkira where is your thread banning frost witches? They hunt and eat men because they hate them, imagine the uproar if the admins approved a magic group of creatures who hunt and eat women because they hate women. Why would misandry be ok but misogyny not? If we're going to ban every single real world prejudice, lets be fair and axe the frost witches too

[satinkira 5929]

4 minutes ago, ReveredOwl said:

ok @satinkira where is your thread banning frost witches? They hunt and eat men because they hate them, imagine the uproar if the admins approved a magic group of creatures who hunt and eat women because they hate women. Why would misandry be ok but misogyny not? If we're going to ban every single real world prejudice, lets be fair and axe the frost witches too

 

srry im eeping rn 

 

 

(misandry as a theme is barely ever used these days by fwitches except for a select unusual few (afaik its just one person). its not so much about misandry anymore but instead the need for survival, it is a curse after all)

[MaltaMoss 1772]

Satinkara I'm sorry but you joined in Almaris where there were literally a total of 0 aggressive actions against gay people in roleplay what the **** are you babbling about. I remember when Kosher on his deathbed revealed that he was gay lmfao, nobody cared. 

This is the weirdest phenomena. I remember walking into Celian'or on my priest during a pilgrimage and two elf women stopped and were like *kisses does this make you mad?????

I just said "no its not in the scrolls lol"

no bro I dont care, nobody cares, nobody has ever cared. I doubt the church is attempting to larp how evil homosexuality is it's ******* minecraft.

let people roleplay nuance and stop yapping abt server history you weren't here for (I wasn't here for atlas and backwards i have no clue abt that shit so you'll never catch me yappin abt it)

[satinkira 5929]

35 minutes ago, MaltaMoss said:

Satinkara I'm sorry but you joined in Almaris where there were literally a total of 0 aggressive actions against gay people in roleplay what the **** are you babbling about. I remember when Kosher on his deathbed revealed that he was gay lmfao, nobody cared. 

This is the weirdest phenomena. I remember walking into Celian'or on my priest during a pilgrimage and two elf women stopped and were like *kisses does this make you mad?????

I just said "no its not in the scrolls lol"

no bro I dont care, nobody cares, nobody has ever cared. I doubt the church is attempting to larp how evil homosexuality is it's ******* minecraft.

let people roleplay nuance and stop yapping abt server history you weren't here for (I wasn't here for atlas and backwards i have no clue abt that shit so you'll never catch me yappin abt it)

 

stop dragging me back from temporary forum retirement, when did I say that the church was evil and homophobic and crucified gay ppl? (beyond father paul and rozania it doesnt happen anymore). ive already stated multiple times that i DO NOT think that the church is aggressively homophobic and that this is more of a PROACTIVE rule than a reactive one. you say im yapping but ur attacking me for things I havent even said, stop being a shitter and let me go back to ignoring this thread because its served the opposite of the intended consequence (instead of reasonable discussion ppl have started using it to attack church folks for being homophobic when they arent for some reason?) 

[Urban 37]

Ban Blah for it is discriminatory towards my ears as well please

[Netphreak 449]

6 hours ago, Werew0lf said:

 

just sucks to see man. the rp mood on this server is going to be sour for a while until this blows over. 

 

i dont want people to weaponize good-faith views from both sides (valid concerns from satinkira and others) in order to become toxic

 

hope people continue to do cool shit.

 

also quick advertisement but heard azdromoth and xan be wilding? maybe people should get involved with that eventline haha 

 

 

Buff the Paladins and we'll see ;)

[SwaK 40]

I think we should ban all conflict and insults, Cause when someone calls me fat (I'm 350lbs) I get very sad.

[Lapidary 379]

I feel like I have waited long enough to give my personal take on this topic. I have been a player on LOTC for going on 5 years now, and ever since my first character on LOTC the personas I have created have all been queer in some form or another. Either by flagrant or different expression, actively seeking partners of the same gender, not conforming to gender expectations etc. I have been at this for years, I understand what the experience is like.

When I first attempted to outwardly express and pursue the storyline of "gay character, homophobic state" it was something that I found exhilarating. I was something interesting, in a place that would not accept me, and I thought it would make for an interesting story line- well I can tell you flat out from my experience it was not fun. My rp consisted of being flung from my home and rp community, character lied about and called all sorts of things icly and oocly, and had their entire personality and legacy and everything destroyed with no chance for reparation because of that simple fact: they were gay. I lost my rp community and everything I had spent months on, in half a second, because of the homophobia which at the time I was fine with but I realized shortly after just the toll it had taken on me. It's the sort of thing that makes you feel guilty out of character. If the rp is not enjoyable at all OOC, what's the point? After their exposure I lost all motivation to even play the character, and if this experience sounds false I'm sure @erictafoyaremembers just how quickly I vanished off the server after this experience. I was off LOTC for about 6 months, after how jarring it was.

I have tried again, and again, with the motivation to have a character of mine experience true happiness while allowing that to be a part of themselves. I have migrated from place to place on the server over the years, and it has reached such a point that I no longer have the energy to play characters who are human, as the experience of the church's homophobia has been so destructive to any character paths and external stories that I almost never play humans anymore. These past few years I have spent on that path in the hopes that one of these times, I would get to play a character in that realm peacefully and with some semblance of normality. This has not been the case, even after seeking groups that were specifically queer-friendly there had always remained burning homophobia pressured by outside prejudice. 

I should say, the final decision as to whether or not irp homophobia is outright admin banned is not something I am hard-pressed upon. I have been dealing with this for years, and as much as it continues to sting I will continue dealing with it anyways. I thought, though, my experiences could serve as an example for what constant irp homophobia does to a character and also to a player. It becomes so immediately disheartening to be removed from what you have, the people you care about, the work you were doing all because of something so small. It really just breaks my heart each time. Homophobia is fine when you have your first dose, at least for a little while, but you begin to feel restricted and tired and limited to a section of the server just to play a character that doesn't fit a specific mold. It's draining, demotivating and rapidly becomes so exhausting to keep reliving. 

If not outright banned, I think the irp harassment should at least be toned down. The church could remove their ban, the storyline of characters who have been slowly fighting for their rights beneath it is one I have been a part of and participated in for years. I've wrote in-character essays  on the topic. It has been so many years of work in the making, and I'd like to see something done, instead of the accusations that it was "all OOC" and "Planned discord talk" Because I can share with you my essays, the writings, the secret wedding screenshots and the government talks. It has been happening, even if you haven't seen it- that's the nature of 'hiding it' irp right? 

I hope everyone on this thread chooses kindness. I appreciate everyone's constructive discussion, and I would like to see it kept that way. I've been in this for so long, it would be nice to see the years of rp amount to something, even if not admin-side. Roleplay on LOTC should be enjoyable, that's what I've always said- if you can't have fun OOC, then the hobby entirely loses it's purpose. I hope this settles without too much tension or OOC hatred. 

[ErikAzog 3313]

1 hour ago, satinkira said:

stop dragging me back from temporary forum retirement, when did I say that the church was evil and homophobic and crucified gay ppl? (beyond father paul and rozania it doesnt happen anymore). ive already stated multiple times that i DO NOT think that the church is aggressively homophobic and that this is more of a PROACTIVE rule than a reactive one. you say im yapping but ur attacking me for things I havent even said, stop being a shitter and let me go back to ignoring this thread because its served the opposite of the intended consequence (instead of reasonable discussion ppl have started using it to attack church folks for being homophobic when they arent for some reason?) 

Who was Father Paul?

[MissToni 3487]

4 hours ago, ReveredOwl said:

ok @satinkira where is your thread banning frost witches? They hunt and eat men because they hate them, imagine the uproar if the admins approved a magic group of creatures who hunt and eat women because they hate women. Why would misandry be ok but misogyny not? If we're going to ban every single real world prejudice, lets be fair and axe the frost witches too

There is in fact a current creature with lore on this current map that mostly and almost only targets women. And a woman can’t even fight back against it if caught in its web if I read the lore correctly

[Duarchist 303]

the average lotcer (particularly the below-18s) lacks the necessary worldview and/or personal experience needed in order to articulate homophobia and its nuances and intricacies in any sort of constructive way, most often defaulting to 'die, ***!'. it's a very nuanced issue made difficult to discuss at a place like lotc where there are hundreds of people of varying age groups and backgrounds vying that their opinion Is The Right One whilst echo chambering around in their individual friend groups, often unable to see the bigger picture. 

 

however

 

where do we stop after banning homophobia and, presumably, transphobia? how does staff decide what is and isn't inherently homophobic? what about fatphobia? what about ableism? the argument for 'this makes me and others uncomfortable' censorship of this type in tv, movies, books, roleplaying games, etc is a good one on paper and a terrible one in practice because it's a slippery, steep slope towards puritanical consumption views, media censorship, and a decline in media literacy. that's not to say it shouldn't be toned down, better moderated, or that those who have been fighting for their rights icly to just give up etc, but a full ban of the idea is not going to do anything but set a precedent that will lead to the downfall of a lot of interesting, if not entirely pleasant roleplay.

 

[Crevel 4727]

I think it is interesting that we would not need to have these discussions if players did not feel the need to use Minecraft as an outlet to pursue romance and sexual-themed roleplay. Nobody is forcing people to play womanisers. Nobody is forcing people to play adulterers. Nobody is forcing people to play gay characters where the inherent implication is the focus on romance and/or sex as an identity as opposed to the biological reproductive function that heterosexuals must exist for to justify babies being born. Ideally, romance and sexual roleplay-themed roleplay should not be something that is pursued, but something largely implied. Regardless, these people are making the conscious OOC choice to put these characters into a roleplay setting. Then some of them have the gall to complain OOC, oftentimes because these sorts of characters are self-inserts to some degree, that the roleplay setting does not suit the character they want to play.

 

My Brother in Christ, you are making the choice to play this character in this setting. If you do not like the roleplay environment, try to change it through roleplay or play a different character. I am not going to go to Haelunor with a character that is antithetical to their values as a nation and then complain when they decide to kill me for gravely insulting them and their culture. To address some recent comments made in this thread:
 

6 hours ago, MeteorDragon said:

One, then why are you still so against banning something that is inherently bad and upsets people oocly? Two, saying "marriage should only be between a man and a woman" is homophobic, there are some folk in Petra who had to deal with not being able to be properly married because of stupid sh*t like this. Three, while I don't play a canonists, mainly because I don't really care about religious rp, I heard from a different source that being gay isn't even banned by canonism, people just want it to be banned, so they rp it being banned.

 

1. Whether something is inherently bad is subjective, both OOCly and RPly. The thoughts of someone being gruesomely crucified for instance is something that is perceived as something barbaric in modern standards due to it being a torturous punishment. However, in roleplay it is a lesser used but still relatively accepted form of execution. The same can be said for lynching, being burnt alive, and other similar methods. It is upsetting to hear of someone being burnt to death in real life, but there is a disconnect in perception of death between real life and a fictional medium like LOTC. While that obviously pertains to death, the same can be said for general discrimination. Calling someone a "midget" in real life is heavily frowned upon due to our modern standards, however it is a common slur to use against halflings and dwarves. It can be an upsetting word when used for genuine discrimination, but when used in a fictional context, the intent is not the same and is used for narrative value.

 

Homosexual relationships are not inherently good on LOTC. Elves are intended to be largely infertile which is in part alleviated by their longer lifespans, however there is still no guarantee in roleplay that an elf may be lucky enough to have a child when they want or need one. To remedy this, homosexuality is frowned upon or even discriminated against by some because they are individually contributing to the dooming their race and family by not reproducing from a roleplay perspective. Similarly, known promiscuity in the hopes to conceive would in roleplay likely be frowned upon as well by other races as well due to it being a foreign concept and against their own beliefs. For humans, their shorter lifespans may also encourage some individuals to believe that it is their prerogative to discourage homosexuality to ensure that their noble ambitions may be met by having children for political purposes for instance. The point being is that there are roleplay justifications unique to the fictional medium that cannot be found in real life modern circumstances that affect mindsets on how someone should act towards a certain behaviour or concept. Themes that may be upsetting for some in real life does not mean that it should be banned and otherwise removed in a fictional setting so that it cannot be explored. If we banned every book that had content some people found upsetting, we would be banning literary classics like Harry Potter with the varied allegations of racism and satanic themes, or Lord of the Rings for its orcs supposedly being designed in a racist manner, despite both being widely acclaimed. If you do not like the content, do not engage with it.

 

2. It is not homophobic. Homophobia is a purposeful or implicit dislike towards homosexual people. A marriage between a man and a woman in Canonism is based on the model of the first coupling (who birthed the Four Sons: Horen, Urguan, Malin, Krug) as well as Horen and Julia. Any sexual encounter outside of the holy union is seen as sinful due to the sinner being seen as a "creature of worldly indulgence". This mainly covers pre-marital sexual intimacy and adultery due to the taking of concubines that inhibited virtue as with Harren in the Scrolls. However, homosexual sex is also covered in this clause because it is, of course, done outside of the holy union. Homosexual romantic relationships themselves though are not sinful or illegal. Depending on the character and their zeal, they would either ignore it, frown upon it, or shun it due to it being seen as a prelude to sin. Nobody would be killed over it. This topic only really becomes an issue when the misconceptions that people draw of Canonism being a 1:1 replica of Christianity makes them assume constant discrimination against homosexuals is common. It is not. The Canonist Church, within the last couple years, has not cared and/or made any effort to pursue possible or known homosexuals in roleplay in order to get them to repent. You are more likely to find mistreatment from unknowledgeable players in nations trying to do religious roleplay who assume the Church would be antagonistic towards homosexuals.

 

3. As I said before, the Church itself as an institution does not care about this. Whoever told you this is likely misinformed. The only nation that I know of that has made any actual attempt to outlaw homosexuality was Haense and it was only designed to combat issues of nobles being adulterers without leaving heirs to inherit their estates from my understanding. 

 

2 hours ago, Lapidary said:

the personas I have created have all been queer in some form or another. Either by flagrant or different expression, actively seeking partners of the same gender, not conforming to gender expectations etc. I have been at this for years, I understand what the experience is like.

 

1 hour ago, Lapidary said:

My rp consisted of being flung from my home and rp community, character lied about and called all sorts of things icly and oocly, and had their entire personality and legacy and everything destroyed with no chance for reparation because of that simple fact: they were gay. I lost my rp community and everything I had spent months on, in half a second, because of the homophobia which at the time I was fine with but I realized shortly after just the toll it had taken on me. It's the sort of thing that makes you feel guilty out of character. If the rp is not enjoyable at all OOC, what's the point? After their exposure I lost all motivation to even play the character

 

Again, I'd like to bring up what I mentioned in my opening paragraphs. You have deliberately chosen to make this an overarching theme for your characters. This is not something that you are being forced to do. I believe that I have briefly been in a few VC with you before years ago (mayhaps I am confusing you with someone else), but it seems you have choose to pursue these experiences purely because it is a reflection of how you are in real life. They are self-inserts in this regard, and that is likely why you feel guilty about the hardships placed on your character. These characters deliberately go against the status quo in many cases, and that is something that other characters will justifiably act against in some cases when you are being blatantly different. That is how homogenous societies work. You may find more enjoyability with characters that have varied personalities and traits that fit within the frameworks of what is normally considered acceptable by most roleplay communities instead of repeatedly playing, as you say, characters that have "all been queer in some form or another". You will generally find more enjoyment in characters that aren't self-inserts.

[Jaspy 25]

As a bisexual man, I find this whole situation quite humorous.

 LOTC is a world full of barbarism, racism, genocide, and slavery... not to mention the sheer amount of zealous religious prosecution! With that said, I find It quite... weird to focus on homophobia specifically. There isn't simple fantasy racism like dwarfs hate elves cuz they do as said by others within this forum but also racism because of cultural and physical ranging from skin color to eye color for **** sake!

To tackle another argument, LOTC is an escapism. Now I really don't want to denounce someone's perspective on what game counts as their escape but just because you or someone else finds It as an escapism, doesn't mean It is for everyone and sensitive or disturbing concepts and narratives are common within LOTC.

 

Another Interesting argument is of a hypothetical homophobic person using OOCLY-charged homophobia within their RP. To which I ask, what is this argument? This is a hypothetical boogie-man that would be dealt with immediately for OOC reasons. That has less to do with the work RP and more to do with the person.

 

A very bad faith argument is that why do we have magic, robots, and tanks but still have homophobia in a middle-aged setting? Well other than the fact that homophobic RP would be inspired by the influence of middle age cultures, religion, and politics that by proxy might cause homophobia to be a part of the culture. Also to note is, despite modern society having tanks and robots.... WE STILL HAVE HOMOPHOBIA! so this whole argument doesn't make sense?

 

I would like to bring my perspective into place by talking about me, a bisexual guy. I see the homophobia RP as a perfect way to add depth and impactful meaning to LGBTQ characters who might struggle with the oppression of others. It's a very realistic and narrative-impactful struggle to use effectively. I played two homosexual characters in LOTC, Titus Gabrielli Septimus was a Caelian senator and legionary who struggled internally with his homosexuality which caused him to shelter himself from others but at the same time desperately attempt to find affection he yured for as a person. This gave alot of memorable RP that still sticks to me today, It shows the adversity, resilience, and the unfortunate struggle of being a homosexual person within the plains.

 

Lastly, I always want to ask myself a few questions whenever stuff like this comes up

1. does this directly affect me?

2. is this intentionally malicious?

3. Should I really care about this?

and to all of this, no? None of this is real. This is all fiction created and entertained by a minecraft dnd server.

[VoidTermnia 264]

holy shit why are people so attached to their homophobia rp 😭