On the Matter of Indefinite Bans

[FlemishSupremacy 4930]

On 8/27/2022 at 12:49 PM, sergisala said:

- Firstly, by Nectorist and Lionbileti, who had a friend of them hold the evidence that they had against KP until the very precise moment that they announced their intention to assume the throne of Oren, when they showed it to the Staff and caused KP to be banned from the server, which facilitated Nectorist to assume the NLship of Oren.

This opinion is stupid and misinformed. This evidence wasn't held until that moment, we reported it multiple times only to get told 'admins already dealt with this'. We then decided to make a forum post, of which neither Nectorist nor Lion had any part in, which caused an uproar. Did nectorist benefit from this? Sure. Did he have any hand in it, or was it done by others to benefit his cause? No. Nectorist got lucky, and something that was long overdue finally happened. KP's ban wasn't "a politically weaponized ban". It was players finally opting to say '**** threats we got from oren mods to keep this quiet' and putting it out there for everyone to see.

 

Same for Alty. Alty was repeatedly reported to staff for his excessive racism, toxicity, staff abuse, OOC politicking, and worst of all, advocating that the age of consent be lowered to whenever a girl has her first period in multiple VCs (in addition to telling 16 year old Christ that he was going to give him 40k in semen right down his throat, during one of the aforementioned OOC politicking sessions). His removal was also long overdue, and it's not because the admins didn't have the spine (or maybe it went against some of their IC interests...) to do something about it back then that they shouldn't have done it when they finally did it.

 

I really can't believe you are still defending these people. These were horrible people, and the only thing wrong about their bans is that it didn't happen sooner. No one sat on any evidence in their cases. They were reported multiple times, and staff (which coincidentially was stacked with people in Orenian leadership positions) didn't want to deal with it like they should have.

[Cheezzy_Garlik 502]

I got a 1 month ban + appeal for saying that the only reason I would log onto the server was to spite it. I didn’t log onto the server to spite it nor did I plan too, my joke was taken out of context yet I still suffered the consequences of breaking the rules without breaking ANY rule. Pls fix this, I don’t see how I can write an appeal that makes coherent sense. : )

[Asutto 1989]

2 hours ago, sergisala said:

 

- Firstly, by Nectorist and Lionbileti, who had a friend of them hold the evidence that they had against KP until the very precise moment that they announced their intention to assume the throne of Oren, when they showed it to the Staff and caused KP to be banned from the server, which facilitated Nectorist to assume the NLship of Oren.

 

- Secondly, by Lionbileti, who precisely grabbed all different pieces of evidence in a very manipulative way to make a report against Hugh. Without attempting to justify anything...does anyone seriously believe that Lion would have reported the evidence regarding Hugh if Acre had never rebelled against Oren? It's the same thing as with KP, that is, a politically weaponized ban.

 

Also, and changing the topic of discussion, I don't know why Alty is currently banned, but if it is for simply the allegedly racist messages he once sent in CMU Discord three years ago, I don't think he should remain banned for that. A lot of people have made worse comments than those in Discord and have never been punished in such a severe way.

I was going to flame you for how inaccurate most of this is but it seems Flemish beat me to it. Though, I'm pretty sure KP wasn't TOSed in the end anyways and he was just banned for "Toxicity".

Also "I don't know why Alty is currently banned, but if it is for simply the allegedly racist messages he once sent in CMU Discord three years ago, I don't think he should remain banned for that" 🤨

[Franczhiz 4053]

free hugh

[chacmul 274]

me support cause. me not support jovies!!! (i like my autocracy thank you very much)

[MeteorDragon 2822]

7 hours ago, Laeonathan said:

There is something else in this regard that I really think that needs to be mentioned. I will not go into the Twi topic - I'm personally biased here because she's my friend.

 

Regarding Liobiletti, Hugh and Ryan, Nectorist, KP:
KP got banned after years of knowledge about him doing bad things. Nobody seemed to care. Okay, better late then never. Kinda weird though.

Nectorist and Lionbiletti profitted from that, though haven't caused it. Nobody complained besides KP. Obviously. Though it still seemed like a power grab.

 

Next, Lionbiletti basically lost his civil war to Hugh. He reported Hugh for racism. A long time friend of his - really? Let's say Hugh was actually racist - I do not know, I can't tell. But simply the fact that a person waits till it benefits them in mineman politcs is really weird.

Same story with Ryan...

 

If you think people are so bad, report them the moment you have evidence, but don't wait till it benefits you.

 

 

 

Bad people should remain banned. If they do some actually bad shit that isn't just like pugsying a few people (should still get banned for that). Being racist, homophobic, transphobic, anti-Semitic, misogynistic, etc. should all be good reasons to kick someone off of the server indefinitely since there is a low likelyhood that they will change, which is what you're meant to do over the course of your banned time. This thing generally is my thoughts on the Lion, Nectoris, Hugh, and KP situations. No clue about Twi or Ryan

 

Oh, and make sure there is proof before a ban takes place, especially for something where someone is acting like a truly shit person

[rukio 8910]

8 minutes ago, MeteorDragon said:

should all be good reasons to kick someone off of the server indefinitely since there is a low likelyhood that they will change

We're on a server mostly inhabited by teenagers. The vast majority of people who are edgy, cringe, and 4chan-pilled grow out of it. A decent number of the people who are anti all of things you mentioned were all of the above in their youth. 

[MeteorDragon 2822]

18 minutes ago, rukio said:

A decent number of the people who are anti all of things you mentioned were all of the above in their youth

 

I'll concede to that. Youth have an easier time changing than adults, however

[souleater007 144]

There is an additional component to frustration held against both administration and moderation. These indefinite bans are generally made all the more worse by a critical lack of transperancy. To date, myself and others do not actually know the 'offical' line of reasoning behind say, Hugh's ban.

 

Everyone 'knows' the excuse behind his particular indefinite ban, but this is more guess work and hearsay from everyone whom isn't an admin, from either camp. Administration, and Moderators themselves, don't seem very willing to discuss these bans. I've never actually seen the report that is apperently responsible for putting crosshairs on Hugh, nor have I seen any relevant evidence. Administration has yet to, themselves, come out and state the reasoning behind an indefinite ban, and have failed to back up the ban with their evidence.

 

That's a problem, and there's several reasons why it's a problem.

A. You are preventing the banned player from even forming a responce. They have no means to justify, defend, or speak for themselves, as they have no actual idea what the opposing argument is. Any community member whom is banned is constantly on the backfoot because they have no clear picture of what they've been accused of in detail.

 

B. You're preventing considerable diaolog. LOTC, like any other minecraft community, or like any other gaming community, or generally, any community at all, is a community preciesly because it's made of up of individual people whom share some common hobby or ground. It is very much worthwhile to allow the very community that the admins themselves are apart of glean just what is driving these decisions. Seperating the community entirely from the process seperates the administration team from everyone else irrevocably. We can't tell what you're thinking. We can't see what leads up to these decisions- So when these bans occur- Hugh, Ryanark, and others mentioned in this thread, to us they come out of nowhere. And because they come out of nowhere, the logical deduction is that Admin/Moderation has royally screwed up.

 

C. It creates a very strong Us Vs. Them mentality. Strong enough that people will inevitably isolate themselves into cliques. Anyone whom knows me knows me from two places. Acre, and my Characters. I can count the amount of times I've so much as posted a message anywhere else except a private chat on my hands. Maybe three messages in the Oren discord- A small handful in the LOTC discord, and very rarely even in the Acre Discord General chat.

 

This is quite frankly because I don't trust other people. In the realitively short time I've been on LOTC, I witnessed an ic conflict suddenly flip into a completely OOC affair due to the suspisions of one side. Both during and at the conclusion of this conflict, from my perspective, my group seemed to draw targeted fire from Admin/Moderation team, with either seemingly faulty explanations, no explanations at all, or very mixed, very contradictory statements from different members, which have thus far justified my strong mistrust and suspision of LOTC staff, to the point of often avoiding talking publically where possible, and only ever /modreq when the breach of rules have been crystal clear. Afterall, in my mind, speaking to, or even talking of, LOTC Admin/Moderation brings the naggling posability that I will log in one day to find myself banned, specifically with no explanation given and no means of recourse, something that Administration has routinely, and agressively, demonstrated that they will do.

 

===

 

With that said

 

Since I am already putting myself out of my normal clique already, I might as well ask a few questions Directly towards Administration and Moderation since they are no doubt keeping an eye on this thread, and would surely be prepared to respond.

 

1. What is the exact, offical stance of banning Hugh. What reasoning was there that was so extreme, it required an indefinite ban against a well liked community leader.

 

2. What is, and where can I see, the evidence that contributed to this decision.

 

3. Various members even outside of the Acre community have noted sourly that Hugh's banning had all the markings of a political ban. Given that his ban was near immediately after Acre and Allies victory in the Oren Revolution war, what is Administration/Moderations comment?

Edited August 27, 2022 by souleater007

[drfate786 1639]

 

The last one, that being "Major" offences is just a list of excuses to permaban people they don't like or agree with.

 

Why?

 

What defines Slander? What defines "Borderline Harassment" and what defines targeted discrimination? Any one of these, they can just make something up or use something taken out of context to justify a permaban. There's no rhyme or reason, it's just "I don't like what you did or said so I will permaban you now. LOL!".

 

This mentality might of worked in 2011 when we were kids and minecraft had millions of people playing it but it definitely doesn't work in 2022. Once you ban a person that keeps a community together, there's no glue to hold them and they just slowly leave or get absorbed by other communities who then also get targeted.

 

What I'm going to say next is going to come across as a conspiracy and a bit of tinfoil.. Because it is.. But..

 

So far, the Haense player-base, dwarven playerbase (to a degree) as well as magic cliques run by the LT have all seemingly gained the most from every single one of these bans. It's almost as if.. And hear me out here.. Whenever someone IRP or OOC'ly opposes these communities (even indirectly) they suddenly find themselves under the swing of a banhammer.

 

I guess LoTC hasn't changed after all, new admins same BS.

 

Edit: All we're missing is a repeat of the last administration's downfall to happen again and the cycle will be complete.

Edited August 27, 2022 by drfate786

[Tulan 443]

It's nice to see that even after a couple of months away from LoTC, that this place is the same ****show it has always been, it's good to once in a while be validated that my decision to leave was the best choice I ever made. 

[Smmer 1145]

i’m not writing a whole well written and organized speech, i don’t have the energy nor the will power to repeat things i’ve said publicly in various discord servers. But as someone who had to find out 5 years later that apparently photos from that stupid show your face thread and ectera (private ones) which mind you were from when i was 16 was used as a tribute photo (if ykyk) only to find out that the people that were banned for it aren’t anymore. I lack the trust and faith needed to believe change can come, if it hadn’t then it will not come anytime now. It’s a sad reality when pedos and sexpests are given more liberty to roam because staff focus on other people who arguably are accused of lesser crimes. 
 

I will just say this. Two words. and two words alone.

 

Honesty & Transparency 

 

Just wanna meme w friends and do my dumb gremlin rp. 

[Puglord 190]

going to be completely transparent here. I was banned at one point and it took great ******* struggle to get in contact with the admin that banned me and even get a responce as to why. they even stated it was on the server yet i knew the only possible thing that could have resulted in the ban would have came from discord. upon calling them out on it they said "It was on discord but it doesn't change anything though"

and although it doesn't, doing stupid shit on either discord or the server should result in a ban they should at least be transparent about how and why you were banned apart from a vague answer. I was lucky to find out through scavenging through discord chats to know what i fucked up on and had a an actual pleasant and human chat with the person who reported me and understood their reasoning. I said something stupid out of lack of sleep. still the fact that its guilty until proven innocent and the banned player doesn't have a chance to defend themselves is a pain in the ass. 

[monkeypoacher 6993]

i mean the server population is at its normal seasonal nadir when people go back to school etc

 

staff should accelerate towards whatever it is they're trying to accomplish. more bans. a lord of the craft with no nation leaders would be worth playing imo

[HadvarAvMitteland 557]

This post could not have come up at a better time for me to comment on. As a permanently admin banned player myself, on and off since 2019, I believe there are two main things when it comes to long ban durations.

 

1) On the most part, the bans that occur are actually very justified. Some of the people catching long bans don't deserve such, but they are a minority compared to those who have actually done bad things. The only offences that should ever be pushed for a permanent admin ban is;

Paedophilia

Sexual harassment

Doxxing

Endangering players OOC

 

I believe if combat rules, or in fact any in-game roleplay rule (excluding the stuff above) is broken the maximum punishment time should be 6 months depending on the severity and history of the player.

 

2) Transparency. When my first long duration ban hit, there was no transparency between myself and Markosi (mod manager at the time). The report against me was done in private, and no counter-evidence or explanation could be put in from my side of the story as when I tried to log in one day the message flashed up "indefinitely banned for harassment and toxicity". When I reached out to said Staff member, I was met with no chance of appeal and no chance of giving my own input into the situation. His mind was already set in stone.

 

Lastly, I would like to say I've seen great improvements in Staff communication and efficiency since returning OOCly (as I'm still banned) to the community. They have responded to me via Discord on regular intervals, not leaving me hanging for weeks like the older admins had done back in the 2020/19 Arcas era. As much as SOME indefinite bans may be seen as unfair, or too long for the infraction committed, we should give at least some credit to those who are working with the admin banned players to get them back. I can attest they are doing so, but you all have to understand there is a process and it has to be taken slow, and serious. This is because if they unban an admin banned, or indefinitely banned player, and that player goes and does something horrific once more it looks bad on the Staff who said yes allowing that danger back into the game.

Edited August 27, 2022 by HadvarAvMitteland