An Open Dialogue on One Specific Slur

[sneakybandit 1503]

7 minutes ago, Nooblius said:

As a proud Roleplay and Real life racist,

I think it's just important when we have discussions like this not to deprive ourselves of context. When talking about OOC conduct and intent of interfacing with server, it's not a light matter to assign thoughts to people they don't express themselves.

 

I don't particularly find myself to be friends with people who are reported for using slurs in Roleplay, but I do find myself sympathetic to them because it is a roleplay server- it is actually a GOOD quality to be willing to roleplay a character with brazen flaws. I think the a good way to combat people using it as an outlet to field genuine IRL malice is to just create the social expectation that characters with these brazen flaws are not celebrated OOCly for those flaws.

 

I'll offer my own experience as an example; Norli Starbreaker is a racist. Not just in the @sshole way of using strong words against people in a lack of sympathy to their emotions, but in the genuine believes in racial hierarchy way- and in a very cruel subtle way as well where he will speak kindly to groups he thinks lesser of. As I became a more veteran roleplayer, I found the best way to deal with that was to call attention to it in the description/action segment of any emote I did. When describing how he says something, describe it as arrogant and flawed.

 

I won't pretend that this is alone is an antidote to dealing with this subject, but I do think it's a good way to deal with playing a character with the flaws- make the fact that they're flaws part of the character.

 

---

 

As for the specific word "Darkeh", I do just want to say that's definately something used a lot within the dwarves both for dwarves and outsiders. I saw someone comment "but dwarves are black too" and I will reply to them that yes and they call eachother that as well. I think it's worth being cognizant of how/why people use slurs, or at least not over simplifying it. Don't deprive yourself of context- if your position requires you ignore context then it's a bad position.

 

I will genuinely say I've never heard it used at all in real life, and I've definitely heard my share of demeaning words in real life, so I really can't speak to the impact of it IRL. I will observe however that if it is about the same level of prevalence or less than the term "spook" then we should probably permit its use. However I do genuinely feel that I have no awareness of its prevalance, and even in trying to find out more from researching I couldn't find anything.

Too long to read, so im just going assume Noobli doubled down on his racism

[Adstrom 547]

7 minutes ago, Nooblius said:

However I do genuinely feel that I have no awareness of its prevalance, and even in trying to find out more from researching I couldn't find anything.

 

First google result:

 

[Nooblius 5794]

3 minutes ago, Adstrom said:

 

First google result:

 

Yes I googled that too but I have a standard for scholarship that extends beyond a dozen words on a dictionary website. What's it's origin? What is it's prevalence? 

[ClassyDryad 1733]

A term being used often by communities does not mean it is not ever has been alright to use said term, otherwise a lot of very colorful language would be allowed in the server given some of it's early history.

 

I'm my own experience, and in the experience older players of the community have shared with me, things like these words are often used by irl racists to mask themselves as they live out the fantasy of their favorite historical daydream. I'll let others who knows of these things better speak on them if they want to.

 

Regardless I'm not sure what the point of an open discussion of this is. It's not really conducive to player safety to essentially endorse these words and then encourage the victims to debate the whole community on why the words made them uncomfortable. The idea of this being done to me is downright revolting.

[Rigorous 1548]

Cut the topmost stuff out because some unsavory people I disagree with repped my comment, and as a consequence I feel my words have been misconstrued from their intended meaning. I'll leave it at the following.

When people harass others, they are to be banned.

When people spam racist language of modernity, they are to be banned - the accidental use of archaic terms can simply have warnings meted out if it's used disparagingly to another player or in a manner that violates our rules, such as if the player describes being uncomfortable and there is no resolution to that dispute, then a Moderator could obviously make a verdict that the situation calls for.

 

That is the system that I abide by. That people who are harassed have a voice and that people who make others uncomfortable are consigned to having no access to our services.

 

 

[SethWolf 1391]

When people approach me asking, "Is it acceptable to play a racist character", I always tell them "Yes, but be mindful that poor quality roleplay will earn you no friends no matter what your character's flaw is."

 

The universally best way to approach this if you choose this path is to use insults from other videogames and media. Someone brought "greyskins" up from Skyrim. Great example.

 

To new players who might read this, take the following advice:

 

To use dwarves and a common insult used against them as an example: Midget. This- unsurprisingly and understandably, will cause people to become upset because of the real life connotations with that word.

 

Instead, you can get not only creative but funny with it without hurting someones feelings.

 

For example, say your character's in a bar and you're getting rowdy and someone starts a topic about dwarves since we're already using them. If your character really hates dwarves, you can go: "Those damned lumberfooted, rockheaded, copper-polishing, cave-hopping dirt faeries really get under my skin!" and no one in their right mind would get offended at that.

 

Try to keep your roleplay friendly. Look to every situation and ask how you can best add, and not subtract to the experience and you'll be fine.

 

 

[__WaterFox__ 631]

People who really think darkie and spook are okay terms to use are either racists themselves or just don't get outside much. Growing up I heard both terms be used in a derogatory way against black people and while I used to use both terms quite comfortably in the past I now try avoiding their use because of those experiences with genuinely racist people. I don't see why people are whining about removing these terms when it is so easy to make up names that don't also happen to have roots in racism. I also find it sus those words arose in popularity on LOTC the same time a group who had a particular hatred for dark elves arose.

[ChaoticallyCheshire 636]

50 minutes ago, ClassyDryad said:

A term being used often by communities does not mean it is not ever has been alright to use said term, otherwise a lot of very colorful language would be allowed in the server given some of it's early history.

 

I'm my own experience, and in the experience older players of the community have shared with me, things like these words are often used by irl racists to mask themselves as they live out the fantasy of their favorite historical daydream. I'll let others who knows of these things better speak on them if they want to.

 

Regardless I'm not sure what the point of an open discussion of this is. It's not really conducive to player safety to essentially endorse these words and then encourage the victims to debate the whole community on why the words made them uncomfortable. The idea of this being done to me is downright revolting.

 

I know that a new target has been placed on my back due to my report and with how it was handled. This discussion will only make said target bigger. I came back to lotc because I thought all the people from my past who once treated me with malice either outgrew this place or were finally tos'd. 

 

To come back and see that racist slurs are allowed and are being compared to a (yes still offensive and should not have been used by any means) moderately smaller slur (which originally wasn't a problem and has only been brought up to say 'look! They did a bad too!') is just disheartening. To see mods (and an admin!) backing up the other side does instill a lack of faith within this servers moderation system.

 

When I was younger I went to a mod with an incredibly sensitive report, one someone pushed me into making (which I needed) and was basically told that player was to popular and learn to get over it. That player (the one i tried to make the report about) is now tos'd. This lack of seriousness is beginning to remind me of such, especially since it shows that numerous players are agreeing that this slur should not be allowed. 

 

I'll say this, if I suddenly start getting bandited when I never have before, or targeted by certain groups, I think we can all agree why that is suddenly occurring. 

 

Opening this discussion is just a way to try and not take accountability by hoping we all get too distracted tearing each other apart in these comments. It's putting an even bigger target on my back. I've been on here long enough to know nothing is going to change, nothing positive at least.

[Rigorous 1548]

2 minutes ago, ChaoticallyCheshire said:

 

I know that a new target has been placed on my back due to my report and with how it was handled. This discussion will only make said target bigger. I came back to lotc because I thought all the people from my past who once treated me with malice either outgrew this place or were finally tos'd. 

 

To come back and see that racist slurs are allowed and are being compared to a (yes still offensive and should not have been used by any means) moderately smaller slur (which originally wasn't a problem and has only been brought up to say 'look! They did a bad too!') is just disheartening. To see mods (and an admin!) backing up the other side does instill a lack of faith within this servers moderation system.

 

When I was younger I went to a mod with an incredibly sensitive report, one someone pushed me into making (which I needed) and was basically told that player was to popular and learn to get over it. That player (the one i tried to make the report about) is now tos'd. This lack of seriousness is beginning to remind me of such, especially since it shows that numerous players are agreeing that this slur should not be allowed. 

 

I'll say this, if I suddenly start getting bandited when I never have before, or targeted by certain groups, I think we can all agree why that is suddenly occurring. 

 

Opening this discussion is just a way to try and not take accountability by hoping we all get too distracted tearing each other apart in these comments. It's putting an even bigger target on my back. I've been on here long enough to know nothing is going to change, nothing positive at least.

 

Do you believe then that it was the wrong decision not to issue a ban to a few players who apologized for the inconvenience? Perhaps there's additional context I might be missing. I participated in the discussion on the report, but I was not there in-game. Eager to hear some more of your thoughts.

[sam33497 2793]

Find something to say that doesn't have real-life implications or is a direct real-life term, and don't rp with OOCly racist intent. It's pretty obvious with recent stuff that people are using certain terms because they think it's funny to do a racist dogwhistle to whoever they're laughing with in VC. Don't do RP that will make people uncomfortable.

 

I don't think the 'line to draw' conversation really needs to exist because it only really ever becomes a problem when people who RP racism don't respect the comfort of the people they are RPing with, either by insisting OOCly that they must be able to act in a racist manner because 'it's rp' or by simply ignoring the discomfort showed by the other party, unless it's the case that the issue is escalated.

 

If you follow these rules, not using any terms with OOC significance, and the other party is made uncomfortable by your non-rule-breaking RP then just stop RPing like that in your session and apologize.

 

(Sidenote: The term 'spook' might be a unique rule to this, since it has widespread use in real life as a term separate to its archaic usage as an offensive term)

[ChaoticallyCheshire 636]

2 minutes ago, RIGOR said:

 

Do you believe then that it was the wrong decision not to issue a ban to a few players who apologized for the inconvenience? Perhaps there's additional context I might be missing. I participated in the discussion on the report, but I was not there in-game. Eager to hear some more of your thoughts.

I think many will agree that at least pcswifts apology was not sincere at all. Instead of going "my bad dude I didn't know. I won't use it again," (which was the response I got from a player 20 mins later who used the same slur) he instead went "so can I not say tree fucker then too???? Where's the line then?" 

 

Tree fucker is not a racial or ethnic slur. He used darkie twice and yes I will admit I should have probably messaged him but I was honestly just so shocked with that blatantly racist interaction. I messaged the player after him and they were far more understanding then him, they even asked me what would be an appropriate remark to make that isn't an irl slur. 

 

He then again showed zero remorse when his response to my own response was simply 'roleplay'. 

 

Both examples you provided were you with people you knew. The bank one while I agree was not bad from the sounds of it, at least would have been at least part of your own ethnicity if it had been bad. By that (I am getting tired so my thoughts are getting a bit blurred) I mean you specified you are jewish and got infractions for being antiemetic. The other was you with itdontmatta who is someone you know. 

 

Pcswift did not know us, we did not know him. Neither of the two groups that interacted last night were friends, this was not us joking around so I find your examples to be invalid and not relative to the argument at hand. 

[UnBaed 8953]

anyone who tries to argue that fantasy minecrafy pixel fantasies is a stronger case against irl terms and context are insane

 

"erm......... its my character :nerd: try to not bring everything into ooc haha! xD! gg snowflake, go cry in ur erp since u care so much about my character using mean words IN RP!!!!" (It is in RP, nothing about this being a slur IRL should be seen - why do u know so much about these slurs huh??)

 

people need to get creative for once, also one of those people in the report was literally banned a few weeks ago for RPing a racist stereotype of Jewish people and thought it was a funny joke

 

stop using slurs, accept it when someone tells you a word is questionable and agree to move on than try to argue and debate it because *pushes up glasses* well its not used in MY region, so ur making it up!  **** off

[Rigorous 1548]

16 minutes ago, ChaoticallyCheshire said:

I think many will agree that at least pcswifts apology was not sincere at all. Instead of going "my bad dude I didn't know. I won't use it again," (which was the response I got from a player 20 mins later who used the same slur) he instead went "so can I not say tree fucker then too???? Where's the line then?" 

 

Tree fucker is not a racial or ethnic slur. He used darkie twice and yes I will admit I should have probably messaged him but I was honestly just so shocked with that blatantly racist interaction. I messaged the player after him and they were far more understanding then him, they even asked me what would be an appropriate remark to make that isn't an irl slur. 

 

He then again showed zero remorse when his response to my own response was simply 'roleplay'. 

 

Both examples you provided were you with people you knew. The bank one while I agree was not bad from the sounds of it, at least would have been at least part of your own ethnicity if it had been bad. By that (I am getting tired so my thoughts are getting a bit blurred) I mean you specified you are jewish and got infractions for being antiemetic. The other was you with itdontmatta who is someone you know. 

 

Pcswift did not know us, we did not know him. Neither of the two groups that interacted last night were friends, this was not us joking around so I find your examples to be invalid and not relative to the argument at hand. 

 

The examples, again, do not pertain to this particular instance, and more so to the ways I've seen people try to weaponize similar rhetoric.

 

At the end of the day, the important thing to me is that he does not say this towards you guys again, and if he does he would face more punitive measures.

 

When people do those things to me, I criticize them or do not interact with them, as my philosophy is along the lines of just not interacting with those sorts of people any longer than I have to. However, if they are constantly walking up to you and doing this and you have it on credit with spectators and maybe some hard evidence or a date which you could give us to fetch logs, I am sure itdontmatta would be happy to re-examine his verdict on that particular instance if you were being harassed.

Either way, sorry things did not work out the way you liked, and hopefully in the future we can act in a manner that better assuages your worries.

[Cheese 2307]

It always gives me an ick when there is color-based racism on a roleplay server. While obviously these characters are all made up, I'm sure most (if not all) of us can admit that all of our characters have reflected our true selves in some way, even if it is just a little bit. Even my characters' racist biases have been obtained through character development that was roleplayed out, and none of it has ever been color-based.

Just a weird thing to be discriminatory about when racism is such a prevelent international issue oocly, and there are a lot of made up things (i.g. ear shape, magic, etc.) that don't reflect sensitive, real issues.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Cheese
I made a typo

[christman 2307]

just make up (OR STEAL) fantasy slurs why use real life ones its just that easy ??  

Humans

Spoiler

cattle, pig skin/pink skin, round ears/round teeth, smoothskin, world blight

Dwarves

Spoiler

dirt licker, gutter rat, oremonger, rock eater/biter, stunt, tunnel rat

Elves

Spoiler

dagger head, rabbit, butterboy, dew drinker/daisy sniffer, murker

Orcs

Spoiler

Slimeskin, pig face, grunt, tusk-face, lumberfoot, savage

 

(credit to https://nubbl.com/dnd/slurs )