Let's talk about Realms

[Minuvas 2887]

I might be in the minority but I like a large diversity of realms. Under the old system I felt forced to align under large nations with ossified player groups. Breaking into these groups is difficult without prescribing to their idea of RP. It allows for very little about to venture out on your own. Combined with activity checks, this made leaving your own realm toxic. 

 

Finally we can explore the map. 

 

15 man player groups are fine. I don't see why ever nation or realm needs to cater to everyone. Maybe it's just a dedicated group of bros playing with each other and they want more than a 10x 10 house in Haense where they have no real agency over their RP. 

 

You played in Oren, well then you can't play in my group because you were Oren. 

 

The ability to experience multiple groups, advance in them, is a great boost for this server. 

 

People actively try to kill small group activity on this server to promote their own groups. This has finally somewhat gone away. 

 

What you call bloat I see as choice. Realms die here and evaporate and it balances alliances etc. 

 

Please keep current system. 

[Elennanore 2776]

I've seen quite a few posts in recent months where all of the 'Heartlander' Canonist Nations will be lumped into one imperial state, an Oren essentially, Haense will be its own Kingdom, and Norland is also its own Kingdom. As the NL of Norland, I don't actually mind the idea of being the vassal of another large polity. However, the culture of Norland is so juxta-posed to every other human Nation(not canonist), that it is essentially impossible to exist under another power without there being some oppressive force working against our culture. This eventually results in the state crumbling apart and going inactive. The problem with imperial states is that the subsequent minor states are either integrated forcefully, and thus are already at odds with the greater power and will always work against it, or the minor state has no loyalty in any capacity.

[Xarkly 12618]

1 hour ago, squakhawk said:

Unfortunately I don't think there will be change anytime soon because it's not just my decision to make. maybe i'm wrong though, we'll see. 

 

Appreciate the insight.

 

One thing I do think is unfortunate is that for some reason Admins don't feel like they can speak freely on the issue? I don't really understand why this is the case at all, and I actually think it's a big contributor to the issue. People are frustrated because they don't actually know what it is Admins are trying to achieve here, and both your input here and 60th's comments in Mod Discord have done the opposite of clarify the state of affairs.

 

Is it a case you're both beholden to dysfunctional senior Admin policies, or something else? At least understanding the basis of the policy (or lack thereof) would be a helpful step towards comprehension.

[argonian 12840]

12 minutes ago, Elennanore said:

I've seen quite a few posts in recent months where all of the 'Heartlander' Canonist Nations will be lumped into one imperial state, an Oren essentially, Haense will be its own Kingdom, and Norland is also its own Kingdom. As the NL of Norland, I don't actually mind the idea of being the vassal of another large polity. However, the culture of Norland is so juxta-posed to every other human Nation(not canonist), that it is essentially impossible to exist under another power without there being some oppressive force working against our culture. This eventually results in the state crumbling apart and going inactive. The problem with imperial states is that the subsequent minor states are either integrated forcefully, and thus are already at odds with the greater power and will always work against it, or the minor state has no loyalty in any capacity.

This is something I've thought about with regards to conquest actually. I think a certain level of discrimination from the conquerors is not only tolerable but also contributive to RP (inspires the conquered ppl to cling to their culture, etc.), but that if the conquerors try to totally extinguish the local culture that it's fucked

 

cuz like obv many conquerors did that irl but this is minecraft and we shouldnt try to kick in each others' sand-castles unnecessarily

 

as they typically have done before

 

but rather that we should RP with each other in a way that we can both enjoy our niches

 

it's a hard thing to balance but i mean we already have eviction rules balanced towards this,

 

on the one hand you dont want cool cultures obliterated but on the other hand you don't want conquered peoples just moving 2 tiles and pretending they were never conquered, so imo we want a system where being conquered can be an interesting part of a culture's history which they can then break out of or accept, depending on their own outlook. so most canonist humans would prob accept it in the long-term but if elves or allfatherists were conquered they'd probably always try to break out eventually

 

EDIT:

 

OK **** this shit every time i edit the comment, stuff i write ends up in the totally wrong paragraph and i dont care anymore to correct it. so say what you will but im done. too exhausting. **** this enjin-ass forum.

[Nectorist 7423]

Additionally, I don’t think the diversity of nations is inherently a problem. You don’t need an empire, or extreme consolidation, when there is interaction and RP happening among these playerbases. The reason empires tended to work well was because they essentially forced these disparate playerbases to interact: intermarriage, events, plotting, alliances, vassal wars, etc, all of this drove rp and actually made diversity a strength.

 

This can be applied on a wider level across the server. Larger nations can interact with smaller ones, whether that’s taking a patronizing stance, a friendly stance, or a hostile stance. They can bring about new dimensions of rp between both groups. It just takes drive and effort. Maybe you don’t conquer this small group, but instead you make them effectively a protectorate and incorporate them in your diplomatic sphere. Maybe you do conquer them, but instead of wiping them off the map you make them a vassal and try to integrate them.

[Xarkly 12618]

1 hour ago, AndrewTech said:

I think I agree with most everything you've said here. Honestly, I believe that staff should start by 1.) publishing activity data again and 2.) enforcing activity checks to try to get this problem of overbloat under control.

 

I also think it might be healthy to distinguish different types of nations as well though. For instance, all nations, no matter their size, are currently considered to be "realms." Last map, settlements existed as well, which were traditionally very easy to create but didn't enjoy the same privileges as a nation.

 

To correct this problem of overbloat, I would propose the return of settlements. Settlement status should theoretically be as easy to get as a realm in the current application process. However, settlements should only be allowed to hold a single tile under this classification. To incentivize remaining a settlement, I would suggest dropping upkeep to 100 minas for their tile.

 

A separate application for nations, or realms if you really wanted to keep the name, should be implemented to be able to have a multi-tile nation. If you grow to the point that you can afford bringing on vassals or buying more land, then it should be easy to compete in a more rigorous applicatory environment and pay more maintenence dues.

 

By reclassifying all of these one-tile states as settlements, nation overbloat will diminish, and new nations will be disincentivized from forming outright.

 

From what Staff had said before, Realms were created as an all-encompassing entity because functionally Nations and Settlements from previous maps were effectively identical. I think that's a fair assessment, but I agree with you in the sense that I definitely think it would have been better if Staff had instead tried to develop Settlements as their own distinct thing (as pre-Nation entities) rather than just basically affirm them as Nations while taking no other steps to make barriers for becoming a Nation.

 

Holding a single-tile makes sense (I can't remember if this was a feature of Settlements previously), and there are other Nation perks that could in theory be withheld (treasuries, warclaims?) but I'd cautious about limiting them for limitations sake (i.e., withholding these perks doesn't necessarily help with anything).

 

But yeah, I definitely think the distinction being brought back would be helpful if for no other reason than to allow lower requirements for becoming a Settlement and higher requirements for becoming a Nation.

57 minutes ago, Spoopy_Duck said:

I think another issue that causes these massive empty realms is the fact that every tile has a valuable resource (except amethyst) so keeping a one tile realm unless you settle on netherite is just a pure disadvantage in any sort of conflict scenario. This causes the drive to just buy land strictly for war economy purposes resulting in realms with way more land than they honestly need imo. (There is a lot of netherite in the north of the map leading me to think this is partly why many are choosing to settle up there as well)

 

Yeah, though I will say I don't hugely mind the tile-based resource system and the incentive of conquering to gain access to XYZ resource. I think this has only played out to a very marginal degree just because the server's culture still doesn't facilitate easy conquest, but yeah, the system as a whole would work better if you could instead buy something like a 'Resource Outpost' on a node tile that might allow you to harvest the materials without buying the tile and whacking a dead vassal on it just to be in compliance with the rules.

34 minutes ago, argonian said:

Close your ears when Haensers tell you about international conflict and the Social Darwinism of "Might makes Right" and the "Strong eat the Meek" because they spent 99% of their history demanding the admins defend them from such strandards.

 

 

It's 2024 and not 2019 or whenever 2emps actually was, so not sure what relevance that has at all to Realm Bloat today. I don't even get the point of this being a jab at someone; I think the only person who played in that period of Haense who actually still plays today is Pureimp. Should probably go back to Inner Sanctum with bad takes instead of lashing out blindly.

[MaltaMoss 1773]

>we kill oren

>server rejoices

>wait why is human rp so shit and balkanized

>no you cant make another empire it will be bad

>cyclical suffering for 3.2 billion years eternal haenser peace-wall nothing state 

I participated in the crimes that led to Oren's death (billetiest revanchism, nectorist plots, ect.) and even I recognize we might have screwed up somewhere. The end goal of any human project in my mind is to become part of something greater, or become that greater something, by any means necessary. The point of every prominent enjoyable human project I have participated in during my tenure on the server has been to achieve some sort of greater unity or solidify some region of the human niche. Highlander, Heartlander, what have you, it's always going to be the ideal end goal for any human project. You either join something and help it grow, or grow something for others to join. That is it. 

We can't kick sandcastles for 3 generations and then expect there to be anything left to build off of. I'm sorry but most of these irrelevant nothing states should just be vassals of something. I see the server through a human player filter because I only every really participate in humanity, so forgive me if that take is jaded. I'm not saying we need an Oren, but we need change. I never thought I'd say this but I actually agree with James2K slightly.

On the topic of realms, I was a GM for a year and a half and saw a lot of realms come and go. Most of them don't necessarily need to exist in any real capacity, and simply exist to fill niches not accurately catered to by pre-existing communities.  Most should be vassals though. Also it doesn't matter what GMs think mod admin has technical final say on everything, and beyond that admins can really do whatever they want team input or not. There is a voting system but if you excuse my cynicism I don't think it really matters. GMs get thrown under the bus by red-tags enough (shoutout SpoopyDuck) so I wont kvetch about it much longer. 

Admins wont help us yada yada its up to player culture and player actions blah blah blah.

We have to change the server they aren't going to do it for us. 

[argonian 12840]

10 minutes ago, Xarkly said:

It's 2024 and not 2019 or whenever 2emps actually was, so not sure what relevance that has at all to Realm Bloat today. I don't even get the point of this being a jab at someone; I think the only person who played in that period of Haense who actually still plays today is Pureimp.

Ok dude if you insist that Kevin Boby is the only old Haenser and that everyone since then believes "might makes right", I'll take note of exactly how you respond next time the mercs and pvp hordes of the world switch sides and you're on the receiving end.

 

Not because I wish you any ill-will, I think you are a cool guy and an astoundingly good writer, but I really hate lies and I think you're being totally disingenuous, and your newfound Darwinistic proclivities would vanish like tears in the rain if they ever affected your friends.

[NotEvilAtAll 9945]

1 hour ago, squakhawk said:

Halflings are an example, with functioning vassals last map, and getting a settlement right at fuckin cloud temple which was still mostly empty after being told by Llir they'd get an exception where they couldn't expand and could just exist, to now this map them owning a ton of tiles despite still being that same settlement

We have multiple tiles because we have multiple vassals on them. I roleplayed in two of these vassal settlements today; they are not just random barony ghost towns and have real leadership, event planning, and pay their taxes on time. Dúnfarthing as a realm extends beyond the shire and we very much deserve our sub-forum classification as being a multi-racial realm since there are many humans, elves, musin, halflings, etc. with us.

If you believe there should only be one of these multi-racial realms then go talk to @Hearth he already has plans in the works in that regard. It is essentially no different to have us own some territory and tax the vassals on it than if a Giga-Sutica were to do the same, however.

[Xarkly 12618]

28 minutes ago, Minuvas said:

I might be in the minority but I like a large diversity of realms. Under the old system I felt forced to align under large nations with ossified player groups. Breaking into these groups is difficult without prescribing to their idea of RP. It allows for very little about to venture out on your own. Combined with activity checks, this made leaving your own realm toxic. 

 

Finally we can explore the map. 

 

15 man player groups are fine. I don't see why ever nation or realm needs to cater to everyone. Maybe it's just a dedicated group of bros playing with each other and they want more than a 10x 10 house in Haense where they have no real agency over their RP. 

 

You played in Oren, well then you can't play in my group because you were Oren. 

 

The ability to experience multiple groups, advance in them, is a great boost for this server. 

 

People actively try to kill small group activity on this server to promote their own groups. This has finally somewhat gone away. 

 

What you call bloat I see as choice. Realms die here and evaporate and it balances alliances etc. 

 

Please keep current system. 

 

This is where the balancing act gets kind of tough to manage, but when I saw I think the server as a whole would benefit from would-be Realms being pushed to go under pre-existing Realms, I don't mean a state of affairs where everyone is crammed into a mega-city or beholden to one capital.

 

I'm not sure if some of what I wrote was misunderstood, but I absolutely agree that you should be able to experience multiple groups and multiple niches. Like I say in the post, part of what makes LotC good is that it's got such a diverse range of roleplay to participate in. I'm not saying that these niches should be limited or inhibited.

 

What I'm saying is that identical niches shouldn't exist independently because it usually serves to dilute that niche as a whole. In the same vein, every nation shouldn't have to cater for everyone, but those that do should ideally include would-be Realms that also want to exist within that niche. If there's a group that does genuinely embody a niche that's not encapsulated by any other Realm, then, like I mention in the post, those are an example of a group that probably do deserve to get their own tile to try their niche out.

 

A big cause of stagnation is a lack of internal dynamics and competition, which a lot of the time comes from competing ideals within that Realm, whether that's a vassal trying to get more power for itself or someone trying to push a change for the Realm internally. It's things like this that serve to best drive that conflict and make stakes, though at the cost of stability. The best example that comes to mind here (outside of the context of a war) is Orenian parliament before Haense's independent where you had groups with different agendas competing politically, and it was great because there were real stakes.

 

[Shmeepicus 3942]

credits to Reece

[Xarkly 12618]

4 minutes ago, argonian said:

Ok dude if you insist that Kevin Boby is the only old Haenser and that everyone since then believes "might makes right", I'll take note of exactly how you respond next time the mercs and pvp hordes of the world switch sides and you're on the receiving end.

 

Not because I wish you any ill-will, I think you are a cool guy and an astoundingly good writer, but I really hate lies and I think you're being totally disingenuous, and your newfound Darwinistic proclivities would vanish like tears in the rain if they ever affected your friends.

 

I didn't play in Haense during War of the Two Emperors.

 

You're clearly not commenting because of anything to do with the post. You saw someone from Haense making a post about an issue on the server in 2024 and started commenting about Renatus and Telanir in 2019. You've just brought some random bullshit from 5 years ago onto this post to try say "YEAH WELL IF THIS AFFECTED YOU, YOU WOULDN'T BE SAYING THIS", without any basis which is absolutely ill-will.

 

Dm your rant and get off my thread.

40 minutes ago, Elennanore said:

I've seen quite a few posts in recent months where all of the 'Heartlander' Canonist Nations will be lumped into one imperial state, an Oren essentially, Haense will be its own Kingdom, and Norland is also its own Kingdom. As the NL of Norland, I don't actually mind the idea of being the vassal of another large polity. However, the culture of Norland is so juxta-posed to every other human Nation(not canonist), that it is essentially impossible to exist under another power without there being some oppressive force working against our culture. This eventually results in the state crumbling apart and going inactive. The problem with imperial states is that the subsequent minor states are either integrated forcefully, and thus are already at odds with the greater power and will always work against it, or the minor state has no loyalty in any capacity.

 

I actually think Norland is probably the best example of a human group that should be its own Realm just because it is steeped in actual years of history and culture that is pretty distinct from any of the other human groups, which you mention with the whole juxtaposition. I'm not sure how it worked when Norland was a vassal before -- I assume it was entirely autonomous with an oath of fealty?

[argonian 12840]

Just now, Xarkly said:

 

I didn't play in Haense during War of the Two Emperors.

 

You're clearly not commenting because of anything to do with the post. You saw someone from Haense making a post about an issue on the server in 2024 and started commenting about Renatus and Telanir in 2019. You've just brought some random bullshit from 5 years ago onto this post to try say "YEAH WELL IF THIS AFFECTED YOU, YOU WOULDN'T BE SAYING THIS", without any basis which is absolutely ill-will.

 

Dm your rant and get off my thread.

Crazy, because I said the Sinners' War. You were around long, long before that (like most leading Haensers), but you decided to shift it all on Boby and act like you all joined this year. Weird one. No, I don't hate you for being Haensers, or for typing in all-caps, if that's your thing, but I reject the disingenuity of attacking small nations for being indefensible when you demanded the admins preserve your own nation from an imminent conquest. That's called fairness. I should hope you familiarise yourself with such a concept before you deal with the criminal cases of our nation.

[Xarkly 12618]

7 minutes ago, argonian said:

Crazy, because I said the Sinners' War. You were around long, long before that (like most leading Haensers), but you decided to shift it all on Boby and act like you all joined this year. Weird one. No, I don't hate you for being Haensers, or for typing in all-caps, if that's your thing, but I reject the disingenuity of attacking small nations for being indefensible when you demanded the admins preserve your own nation from an imminent conquest. That's called fairness. I should hope you familiarise yourself with such a concept before you deal with the criminal cases of our nation.

 

Your only mention of the Sinners' War was that you fought in it, so I don't see how your comment about that makes any sense.

 

Again, you're bringing up 2 Emperors as a basis to dismiss what I've written here. If you want to disagree with it, that's fine. I can sit here and tell you how I wouldn't have written to Admins appealing to help because Haense got itself in that mess itself or that it wouldn't be all that terrible if it got deleted in the Sinner's War or today because I think it's getting stale, but based on how you're concluding I'd change my mind in a heartbeat in different circumstances with no evidence there's probably not a whole lot of point in that. There's nothing there we can discuss because you're using an uncertified personal belief so I'm not sure why you're even commenting.

 

If you want to point to any parts of what I'm saying in the post and discuss them, that's fine, and I'd be happy to engage, but you've just come on here to dismiss the entirety of it on the basis of who I am, which isn't really something we can discuss? There's no basis to engage on "sounds good but bet you'd change your mind if your side was affected!!!".

[Minuvas 2887]

20 minutes ago, Xarkly said:

 

This is where the balancing act gets kind of tough to manage, but when I saw I think the server as a whole would benefit from would-be Realms being pushed to go under pre-existing Realms, I don't mean a state of affairs where everyone is crammed into a mega-city or beholden to one capital.

 

I'm not sure if some of what I wrote was misunderstood, but I absolutely agree that you should be able to experience multiple groups and multiple niches. Like I say in the post, part of what makes LotC good is that it's got such a diverse range of roleplay to participate in. I'm not saying that these niches should be limited or inhibited.

 

What I'm saying is that identical niches shouldn't exist independently because it usually serves to dilute that niche as a whole. In the same vein, every nation shouldn't have to cater for everyone, but those that do should ideally include would-be Realms that also want to exist within that niche. If there's a group that does genuinely embody a niche that's not encapsulated by any other Realm, then, like I mention in the post, those are an example of a group that probably do deserve to get their own tile to try their niche out.

 

A big cause of stagnation is a lack of internal dynamics and competition, which a lot of the time comes from competing ideals within that Realm, whether that's a vassal trying to get more power for itself or someone trying to push a change for the Realm internally. It's things like this that serve to best drive that conflict and make stakes, though at the cost of stability. The best example that comes to mind here (outside of the context of a war) is Orenian parliament before Haense's independent where you had groups with different agendas competing politically, and it was great because there were real stakes.

 

 

My friend, my counter would be that the energy to overcome a currently established niche is monumental. So the free market of ideas doesn't allow the "best" of a niche to establish, but instead awards stagnant entity to maintain a paradigm of how a niche operates through mostly intertia. 

 

And how broad are the niches that we will allow staff to deny? Is A monarchy the same as a republic, can there only be X human settlements? 

 

This absolutely results in a more stable map, but not one I would consider very fun. Ultimately the same 30 people cycle through leadership, and few players are allowed to strike a new settlement to challenge the current paradigm. They can only attempt to take over the current nation and change it from within - a much harder thing for a maverick to do.